(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

[Spearmaster]

I really don't see a point to this thread other than a white knight trying to start fires so they can be seen trying to put them out.

Girls are gamers, maybe less so in earlier years because the industry did not realize it and games were targeted totally to adolescent and young adult men, Ive gamed with girls since the mid 80s and I know one thing, they are equal in talent, need for enjoyment and also bad online behavior/harassment and they use their girl gamer status as a harassment tool sometimes, not all girls but many I know.

 

[Frokane]

there has always been girl gamers, and Im completley fine with that, im actaually really happy about it.
But the massive influx of females who are jumping on the bandwagon arent all genuine, not because they are girls but because they are bandwagon jumper who just happen to be girls

this isnt sexist, there are plenty of guys who are pretending to like girly animes and jumping on the recent my little pony phase to get a LOT of female attention and this is simply the reverse effect.

True girl gamers have been there from the beginning, sitting next to us playing resi evil and racing us on mario kart, girls who have played a round of angry birds and leanred some basic 'interwebz speek' are not girl gamers they are posers who are too ugly/boring to make it in the hipster crowd, so they jump into a pool of insecure geeks who will worship them just because they lack a Y chromozone.

 

[Overusedname]

Woah what the hell happened in this thread since last night? Lots of new posts, I can only imagine it was a quote war.

I got the hell out of this thread early on when people started posting essays worth of text (I knew where dis was goin'). I've been lurkin' to see what's been going on since then but... there's tippy, and paradox and just a general sense of chaos.


Overusedname...

lol. I figured this thread was gonna be going in this direction. I told you to make it less about Feminism in general towards the beginning, but... hey if you can fight the good fight, and not let it get to ya, then good for you. I find feminism midly boring as a philosophical topic but whatever. Had fun reading through this thread all the same... We just need [user]Mythrandia[/user] to join this thread and the insanity will be complete.

It doesn't get to me. I was way to bullied as a little kid to let this kinda thing bug me by comparison.

But I think all that bullying has made me hate insensitivity in general on a personal level. I can't just shut up and let it happen near me or I develop a rash.

The 'lead by example, let-it-be' approach is fine, I just don't think I can physically do it personally.

I guess that makes me a...'WHITE NIGHT'. DUN DUN DUN.

I really don't see a point to this thread other than a white knight trying to start fires so they can be seen trying to put them out.

Can we pretend that term doesn't exist? Just for once? 4chan is not the best thing to provide new vocab words. You realize I'm never gonna meet any of the women I'm 'defending', right? Cause I sure do.

Everytime I see someone treated like shit, it bugs me.

I guess you can call me a white knight then.

In some circles in the real world, it's this nifty practice called not being a dick. I'm really sorry, but I'm kinda not ashamed of attempting to maintain that trait. It's gotten me a lot of good friends.

Did you watch dat video? I mean...jeeeeesus. I got irritated that people were agreeing with it (any one moment of it, really), and provided a statistic, some news articles and a personal experience to counter it.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Nor has DevilWithAHalo, the guy who thought it was a good idea to post a video called 'From the Kitchen to the Controller, Girl Gamer's Exposed' on the Escapist.

There might be a legit argument somewhere on the opposing side, but it's buried under all three of these guys saying that women should accept the fact that there opinion doesn't matter, or call the hive mind of women on the 'evil-feminist' hotline and organize some kind of Coup instead of just asking a vocal minority of men to be slightly less abrasive.

Then some women got upset by that. It's hard to believe huh?

I told women their opinion didn't matter? Mind showing me where I did this?

You seem to know more about me and my intentions than I do. Please enlighten me on how you managed to achieve this knowledge without actually asking me.

 

[Overusedname]

Nor has DevilWithAHalo, the guy who thought it was a good idea to post a video called 'From the Kitchen to the Controller, Girl Gamer's Exposed' on the Escapist.

There might be a legit argument somewhere on the opposing side, but it's buried under all three of these guys saying that women should accept the fact that there opinion doesn't matter, or call the hive mind of women on the 'evil-feminist' hotline and organize some kind of Coup instead of just asking a vocal minority of men to be slightly less abrasive.

Then some women got upset by that. It's hard to believe huh?

I told women their opinion didn't matter? Mind showing me where I did this?

You seem to know more about me and my intentions than I do. Please enlighten me on how you managed to achieve this knowledge without actually asking me.

Nah man, you were on the 'call the hive-mind' side.

Also, because this is grade school, 'You started this! WWWWWWAAAAAHHHH!'

I don't follow the logic of posting a video with that title and not introducing it as either a joke or an abomination.

Edit: I apologize for those first two lines. That was classless.

 

[hurfdurp]

I distinctly remember when I was in Kindergarten I would ask the boys who their favourite Street Fighter II character was. There was no shock or hostility because we were so young we didn't know who we were supposed to irrationally exclude from what yet.

 

[Overusedname]

I distinctly remember when I was in Kindergarten I would ask the boys who their favourite Street Fighter II character was. There was no shock or hostility because we were so young we didn't know who we were supposed to irrationally exclude from what yet.

...I feel like that quote is the perfect summery of this issue.

Like seriously, it couldn't be better.

 

[Coolshark]

Nor has DevilWithAHalo, the guy who thought it was a good idea to post a video called 'From the Kitchen to the Controller, Girl Gamer's Exposed' on the Escapist.

There might be a legit argument somewhere on the opposing side, but it's buried under all three of these guys saying that women should accept the fact that there opinion doesn't matter, or call the hive mind of women on the 'evil-feminist' hotline and organize some kind of Coup instead of just asking a vocal minority of men to be slightly less abrasive.

Then some women got upset by that. It's hard to believe huh?

I told women their opinion didn't matter? Mind showing me where I did this?

You seem to know more about me and my intentions than I do. Please enlighten me on how you managed to achieve this knowledge without actually asking me.

YOU.

Why'd ya post that video dude? Seriously? And the fact that your posting in this thread is kinda ballsy.

As for this thread, it's certainly gotten out of hand in some places...but I can see what Overused is trying to say. And it's cool. I think some people needed to hear this. A lot didn't, but some did.

It's not that controversial. Women have a large presence, be nice to them if they deserve it, be assholes if they prove to be assholes. That's it, yo. This thread's original post amounts to 'here's a statistic, here's my experience, it might not equate to yours, but it proves that not every girl gamer should be generalized.' I think that's cool. Cool like sharks jumping through flaming hoops in zero orbit.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Nah man, you were on the 'call the hive-mind' side.

So because you can't actually produce anything where I actually said women's opinions didn't matter; you attribute my questioning of people's position as arguing in favor of the opposing side?

Also, because this is grade school, 'You started this! WWWWWWAAAAAHHHH!'

Once again, I'm going to ask for evidence of where I did something of this childish nature.

I don't follow the logic of posting a video with that title and not introducing it as either a joke or an abomination.

Because it wasn't my video, nor do I assume the intentions of someone else in making it, nor do I call something I may disagree with an abomination. The "logic" behind it is allowing others to view something as presented by the author without the bias of a viewer already coloring an alternative viewers perceptions of the video (which is a logical fallacy, of which that thread had a ridiculous amount of).

I'm going to ask you to stop attributing things to me you have no ability to substantiate.

 

[Coolshark]

Nah man, you were on the 'call the hive-mind' side.

So because you can't actually produce anything where I actually said women's opinions didn't matter; you attribute my questioning of people's position as arguing in favor of the opposing side?

Also, because this is grade school, 'You started this! WWWWWWAAAAAHHHH!'

Once again, I'm going to ask for evidence of where I did something of this childish nature.

I don't follow the logic of posting a video with that title and not introducing it as either a joke or an abomination.

Because it wasn't my video, nor do I assume the intentions of someone else in making it, nor do I call something I may disagree with an abomination. The "logic" behind it is allowing others to view something as presented by the author without the bias of a viewer already coloring an alternative viewers perceptions of the video (which is a logical fallacy, of which that thread had a ridiculous amount of).

I'm going to ask you to stop attributing things to me you have no ability to substantiate.

Okay, for the record, you did just call that video unbiased, correct?

Buddy, this is what people have meant when they say you've been less than sensitive.

That video was really, genuinely insensitive, you brought to people attention expecting them to take it seriously, you come into this thread highlighting why that action was insensitive and make more insensitive comments. You probably arne't sexist, reading this, but you're actions made it look like you are. I don't THINK you are, but you've previously made it look like you are.

I really don't want this to escalate, I think it's gotten out of hand. But that's what the situation looked like to this outsider. That video and post upset a lot of people for valid reasons, and it's hard to take anything connected to it seriously. I'm sorry, I really don't want to offend ya, but...you offended people without really acknowledging it.

 

[Overusedname]

Nah man, you were on the 'call the hive-mind' side.

So because you can't actually produce anything where I actually said women's opinions didn't matter; you attribute my questioning of people's position as arguing in favor of the opposing side?

Also, because this is grade school, 'You started this! WWWWWWAAAAAHHHH!'

Once again, I'm going to ask for evidence of where I did something of this childish nature.

I don't follow the logic of posting a video with that title and not introducing it as either a joke or an abomination.

Because it wasn't my video, nor do I assume the intentions of someone else in making it, nor do I call something I may disagree with an abomination. The "logic" behind it is allowing others to view something as presented by the author without the bias of a viewer already coloring an alternative viewers perceptions of the video (which is a logical fallacy, of which that thread had a ridiculous amount of).

I'm going to ask you to stop attributing things to me you have no ability to substantiate.

Okay, I just saw Coolshark's post in response to this, and it kinda says a lot of the things I wanted to say. So I don't need to say them again. I agree with his/her complaints.

But that being said, let's tone this down real quick.

I'd like to start by apologizing. I wasn't being sensitive: this issue greatly upsets me on a personal level. Bullying and generalization hits close to home, so the post you quoted was made with a lot of frustration. This is something I and my friends deal with far to often. It can be very painful.

I apologize for what I said. Sincerely. I've actually done exactly what I didn't want to do and made the issue personal. And I'm sorry. I may hate some of the things you've said, but I don't know you as a person. I can allow myself to dismiss an argument, but not the person making it. That's inexcusable, and I'm sorry for the lack of respect.

I do still think the video was really insensitive, and perhaps you were showing it for less hostile reasons, but there was a lot of miscommunication going on. On my side of the fence as well, and I apologize for being part of the reason that happened. So sorry, again.

Now yes, I still do assert that some of the things you have said are insensitive to the issues at hand, but I've been insensitive as well. I hate hypocrisy, and I'm fully guilty of it here. So let's bury the hatchet. We can continue this debate, calmly. And if we do, perhaps we can do it in private chat.

Once again, I apologize. I got to emotional. This issue means a lot to me, and I've seen to many people generalized and treated poorly for the wrong reasons. But that does not excuse my behavior.

I hope you accept my apology.

 

[Spearmaster]

I really don't see a point to this thread other than a white knight trying to start fires so they can be seen trying to put them out.

Can we pretend that term doesn't exist? Just for once? 4chan is not the best thing to provide new vocab words. You realize I'm never gonna meet any of the women I'm 'defending', right? Cause I sure do.

Everytime I see someone treated like shit, it bugs me.

I guess you can call me a white knight then.

In some circles in the real world, it's this nifty practice called not being a dick. I'm really sorry, but I'm kinda not ashamed of attempting to maintain that trait. It's gotten me a lot of good friends.

Did you watch dat video? I mean...jeeeeesus. I got irritated that people were agreeing with it (any one moment of it, really), and provided a statistic, some news articles and a personal experience to counter it.

The term exist for a reason, I just don't know your motivations for this thread. I'm fairly certain women on this site and girl-gamers everywhere are capable of defending themselves without some guy coming to their rescue that's all. Most probably ignored it outright. Just be careful, some feminist view white knighting as sexist behavior.

 

[False Nobility]

Once again, I apologize. I got to emotional. This issue means a lot to me, and I've seen to many people generalized and treated poorly for the wrong reasons. But that does not excuse my behavior.

I hope you accept my apology.

I can't believe I just saw such a real apology on the internet.

This has been one hell of a thread.

Don't feel bad Overused, everyone else is kinda ganging up on the guy. Ya kept it fairly classy.

OT: But yeah, girl's should get less crap then they do....yep. Don't get what that's been complicated. XD My sister is better at racing games than I'll ever be. I think very few girls play games for any reason other than...fun. XD I dunno lol.

The term exist for a reason, I just don't know your motivations for this thread. I'm fairly certain women on this site and girl-gamers everywhere are capable of defending themselves without some guy coming to their rescue that's all. Most probably ignored it outright. Just be careful, some feminist view white knighting as sexist behavior.

Buddy, he was being nice. It's not a conspiracy. Women are independent as all hell, but why not give a hand? Because being helpful is condescending?

If Overused was a girl, people would be giving them crap about gender bias.

Can't someone just be helpful? I hold doors open for girls AND guys, and they don't seem to be offended when I do so.

Also, not a single women in the thread has said they feel like Overused or any of the other guys in this thread supportin' female gamers is trying to rescue them. Most have been fine with a bit of extra help. I think you're overestimating how sensitive women are.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

YOU.

Mmmm? yes?

Why'd ya post that video dude? Seriously?

Because I wanted to know how a self proclaimed progressive and intelligent gaming community would respond to it. I found many of the points interesting and wanted the thoughts of others on them. (Amazing what asking can accomplish eh?)

You can imagine my surprise when it was met with as much hostility as this site often protests the poorer members of the community of committing. Thy name is irony.

And the fact that your posting in this thread is kinda ballsy.

Why? Are people plotting on doing me harm?

It's not that controversial. Women have a large presence, be nice to them if they deserve it, be assholes if they prove to be assholes. That's it, yo. This thread's original post amounts to 'here's my experience, it might not equate to yours, but it proves that not every girl gamer should be generalized.' I think that's cool. Cool like sharks jumping through flaming hoops in zero orbit.

I agree with this position. I find it hysterical that I?ve said so several times but people are still of the opinion I?m of the far more unsavory opinion that women have no business in the industry or the community.

Okay, for the record, you did just call that video unbiased, correct?

Reading comprehension people, it?s going to save us a lot of time?

?as presented by the author without the bias of a viewer?

?*I* was presenting the video without bias. The video contains the bias of the author. The author =! The viewer.

Buddy, this is what people have meant when they say you've been less than sensitive.

Then I hate to say this, but people need to learn how to fucking read.

That video was really, genuinely insensitive, you brought to people attention expecting them to take it seriously, you come into this thread highlighting why that was insensitive and make more insensitive comments. You probably arne't sexist, reading this, but you're actions made it look like you are. I don't THINK you are, but you've previously made it look like you are.

I really don't want this to escalate, I think it's gotten out of hand. But that's what the situation looked like to this outsider. That video and post upset a lot of people for valid reasons, and it's hard to take anything connected to it seriously. I'm sorry, I really don't want to offend ya, but...you offended people without really acknowledging it.

I try not to take emotion into consideration with a discussion I view as purely academic. Honestly, I don?t care to embellish my positions with potpourri.

I'd like to start by apologizing.

You did not harm me emotionally; it was really the misinformation which caught my attention. Thanks for realizing it. As I've said, I try to avoid emotional investments in online discussions (I've come to accept how others view me because of that; in real life too).

*****

Serious question to those supporting banning offensive people from participating in the hobby, who gets to make that determination and under what circumstance?

 

[Overusedname]

You did not harm me emotionally; it was really the misinformation which caught my attention. Thanks for realizing it. As I've said, I try to avoid emotional investments in online discussions (I've come to accept how others view me because of that; in real life too).

I think you're making your position more clear now, but I will point out it wasn't very obvious at first.

That's not a point of argument, just saying that's something to watch out for. People shouldn't have attributed the video's bias to your own though. But it did come across as 'I agree with parts of this' at several moments in that other thread. The video made people volatile (understandably), so everyone jumped to conclusions (which still isn't okay). There's a reason I and several others were misinformed, but it's still largely our fault either way.

I'm glad I didn't bug ya to much. Glad to calm the flames.

Serious question to those supporting banning offensive people from participating in the hobby, who gets to make that determination and under what circumstance?

I don't wanna get into a topic like that right away, but I think it's okay to ban a repeat offender if they keep on hurting people several times. As long as there's a warning system, the sexist/racist/homophobe really has no excuse. That's my way of looking at it. Record in-game conversations to monitor it, as Big Brother as that is. I think the downside is outwieghed by getting jerks offline.

Once again, I apologize. I got to emotional. This issue means a lot to me, and I've seen to many people generalized and treated poorly for the wrong reasons. But that does not excuse my behavior.

I hope you accept my apology.

I can't believe I just saw such a real apology on the internet.

This has been one hell of a thread.

Don't feel bad Overused, everyone else is kinda ganging up on the guy. Ya kept it fairly classy.

...

Can't someone just be helpful? I hold doors open for girls AND guys, and they don't seem to be offended when I do so.

Also, not a single women in the thread has said they feel like Overused or any of the other guys in this thread supportin' female gamers is trying to rescue them. Most have been fine with a bit of extra help. I think you're overestimating how sensitive women are.

Thanks, man. That's all I really gotta say XD Thanks.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Wow you are really sexist.

Firstly games are not 'toys for younger men' They are my fucking toys and have been since 1984. I have no idea what you mean by 'feminism of convenience' are you somehow suggesting that when women get old they start getting upset about ridiculous depictions of their sex in the media because I'm pretty sure I held this view when I was a teenager.

Stop acting like women are just turning up and ruining your party we aren't we have been at the party for a long time just as soon as women say anything to try and improve things men go of on one because they don't want their precious fap material taken away.

I love the way you completely ignored the fact that I said there are tons of women who love the types of games I listed and went straight onto say about Charon. Pretty sure he can wear a pimp outfit in Fallout 3 unless of course you have never played it, which I think is likely.

Oh and just because devs might not listen to us doesn't make the sexism RIGHT does it.

snip

Maybe because he is trying to look sexy while girls get those comments on any fucking video they make.

 

[Tomeran]

Despite it being a common thread subject, I think this is a fairly well-made one.

And a topic worthy of discussion. Much more so then "SKYRIM DAWNGUARD SUX, BIOWARE ARE TEH DEVIL, OMG EA *mouthfoams*!" or similar which seems to be all the rage(litterly speaking) on gamer forums.

I belive BBC posted these statistics on their main newspage a while ago. I then relayed them here through a forum reply(which was ages ago) and a fair few people didnt believe the statistics. Ah well, I guess people can stick their heads in the sand as much as they want to.

But frankly? This is 2012, not the medieval ages. How people can still rage about women and gaming, or resist women's rights and equality in general, boggles the mind. It is also a sad testiment that some people will cling to old values no matter how demented or unfair they are.
I guess it takes time for those ancient anti-women equality ideals to let go. Humanity's had them for way too long.

 

[Spearmaster]

Once again, I apologize. I got to emotional. This issue means a lot to me, and I've seen to many people generalized and treated poorly for the wrong reasons. But that does not excuse my behavior.

I hope you accept my apology.

I can't believe I just saw such a real apology on the internet.

This has been one hell of a thread.

Don't feel bad Overused, everyone else is kinda ganging up on the guy. Ya kept it fairly classy.

OT: But yeah, girl's should get less crap then they do....yep. Don't get what that's been complicated. XD My sister is better at racing games than I'll ever be. I think very few girls play games for any reason other than...fun. XD I dunno lol.

The term exist for a reason, I just don't know your motivations for this thread. I'm fairly certain women on this site and girl-gamers everywhere are capable of defending themselves without some guy coming to their rescue that's all. Most probably ignored it outright. Just be careful, some feminist view white knighting as sexist behavior.

Buddy, he was being nice. It's not a conspiracy. Women are independent as all hell, but why not give a hand? Because being helpful is condescending?

If Overused was a girl, people would be giving them crap about gender bias.

Can't someone just be helpful? I hold doors open for girls AND guys, and they don't seem to be offended when I do so.

Also, not a single women in the thread has said they feel like Overused or any of the other guys in this thread supportin' female gamers is trying to rescue them. Most have been fine with a bit of extra help. I think you're overestimating how sensitive women are.

I just don't see why we have to support "female gamers" cant we just support gamers?

Also generalizing female gamers as one entity makes the same mistakes the video in question did. I have solved the problem for myself and have stopped calling myself a gamer altogether because these days there are more negatives associated with the term than positives. Every girl can play video games no questions asked but when you use the term "girl gamer" it starts a firestorm and I want no part of it.

 

[Overusedname]

[
I just don't see why we have to support "female gamers" cant we just support gamers?

I can get behind that. Well...I am. I guess it's just that we have to acknowledge OTHER PEOPLE don't see it that way, so we need to make different demographics feel welcome.

Gender does NOT matter to me, but I acknowledge that it matters to other people. I hope that makes sense.

Also generalizing female gamers as one entity makes the same mistakes the video in question did. I have solved the problem for myself and have stopped calling myself a gamer altogether because these days there are more negatives associated with the term than positives. Every girl can play video games no questions asked but when you use the term "girl gamer" it starts a firestorm and I want no part of it.

Semantics and the internet certainly don't have a healthy relationship.

Avoiding labels is certainly ideal.

I hope it didn't seem like I was generalizing, cause I made it clear from the get go that I know 'some women do this, but some don't. Some game for pleasure, some don't, some are new, some are old, etc.' But I don't think that comment was directed at me.