(As we all know) Women are not new to gaming.

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Sheo_Dagana

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Uh... yeah. I grew up with a sister that played the same games as me. I work at a store that sells video games and it's funny when people ask if a game is a 'good game for a girl.' I just shrug and tell them "my sister grew up playing the same games as me, so I don't know what a 'girl game' is." The female employees are more annoyed by this than I am.
 

Overusedname

Emcee: the videogame video guy
Jun 26, 2012
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T0ad 0f Truth said:
Mario Sunshine was so she'd get better at controls. I didn't think that one through as well as I should've. Super Mario 64 would have been better lol.
That's a plan. Maybe hold off on Majora for now. It's incredibly hard and cryptic at places, yes.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Tippy said:
My theory is that a large percentge of women may PLAY games, but they're not as interested in MAKING them - yet they demand equal and fair representation. They demand that male developers cater to their tastes, their wants and needs. This is of course, purely a theory and I'm yet to find actual statistics to back it up (I'm still looking, help me!).
I have a lot of problems with this. First of all, whether you intended to or not, you have made a lot of very bad implications here. The first of which being that you address "women" as some sort of collective group with homogeneous feelings about games and shared desires for what they want them to be. I think you can see how flawed that is in practice. Second, you have implied that somehow "women" as a collective group have some sort of obligation to participate in the creation of games. I don't care who or what you are talking about--you should never hold it against any gender for doing anything statistics say they don't want to do. That's like saying a lot of women have to be babysitters because men won't pick up the slack (and that because of that, clearly men are lazy bastards who have no right to complain about what sort of child-care is available for their baby).

Third, you have implied that women are necessary to make games that appeal to women, or at the very least do not repel them. And if that is how you feel then I'm afraid Joss Whedon would like a word with you.

Fourth, you have implied that games are purely a creative industry and that market trends have absolutely no say in what is created (in other words, "games that appeal to women don't get made because there aren't any women around to make them"). Which, as the advent of casual games has proven, is not the case at all. Do you think that before casual games hit it big, nobody wanted to make quirky short games that could be played in smaller increments of time than full-length games? Of course not, that's just absurd. That's like arguing nobody wanted to capture a portrait quickly and easily before photography was invented.

But casual gaming platforms gave those ideas a feasible place to go, and their boom in the market gave them demand, which brought in investments for all of those ideas to be brought to life.

So clearly market trends have quite a bit to do with the kinds of games that we see. Meaning if there is a higher demand for games that appeal to women, it is perfectly reasonable to expect the market to compensate and fulfill that demand. While games are a creative medium, they are also a business, which means they are subject to supply and demand. Meaning if women are demanding games, it would be rather idiotic from a business standpoint for everybody to just ignore them and not divvy up a supply. There may not be a lot of men who know how to attract women, but if there is enough of a demand the market will seek them out.

And fifth, you are implying that games that appeal to women are so different from games that appeal to men there can be almost no overlap. Since there are a good number of women who have played and enjoyed games just as they are for a few decades now, I think it's safe to say that is also an inaccurate assumption. Last I checked, the things most women take umbrage with in male-centered games (or rather, what makes a game male-centered rather than gender-neutral) is the exclusion of females where there could easily be some, and the appearances of these females favoring how men like to see them (sexually) rather than how women like to see themselves (effectively illustrated here [http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/]).

The first is easily solved, and the thing is you technically you don't even need women to fix this. Look at Team Fortress 2. I have logged over 600 hours in that game and I have never once been bothered by the all male cast. Their dynamic is so great and their characters are so fun and well-characterized that it doesn't feel like anything is missing. The game plays like a Saturday Morning Cartoon, but with blood and swearing. The female element isn't there for the same it isn't there for a lot of cartoons--it's just not necessary, because that's not where your focus is.

I don't play a lot of games that could serve as an example to the contrary, but I have played some CoD and Halo, and I will tell you from my experience I felt very detached. In TF2 I've got those fun characters to project myself through and draw pathos from, but in those games you're sort of expected to roleplay through your avatar. But in CoD you're always white guy number 2023409302984, so there's little for me to identify with there. And in Halo I guess you can have what they call "customization," but if all I've got to identify with is a suit of armor or a suit of armor with two lumps on the front, identification is difficult under any circumstances (though that may have more to do with the armor in general rather than the lack of gender distinction).

Anyway, my point is the genders are missing in those games, but because there isn't anything to shift that focus of roleplaying to I feel left out. So, just throwing in some female models for multiplayer would be nice. And as for games with actual stories and character, I think it is perfectly possible to carry a good gender-neutral story without a female--just look at The Hobbit. While inclusion of well-characterized females is always appreciated, having a story that appeals to both men and women comes down to good writing more than anything else. Pixar also lacks movies with female leads, but their stories transcend gender. They don't write stories about genders--they just write stories, and damn good ones. Or, they could not go the gender-neutral route and actually throw some worthwhile females in there. And how successful that is ultimately comes down to writing and storytelling, just as with the all-male stories.

As for the other one about the appearance of females in games, that one is very easily remedied. Design armor to be practical, not sexual. As shown in that tumblr [http://womenfighters.tumblr.com/] I put up earlier, it isn't hard to make armor for females that doesn't look like Ivy from Soul Calibur. Well, it might be hard for certain artists, but again it's all about fulfilling the market's demands and tracking down those people who do have a knack for it. Or, just design one set of armor and give it to both genders. Skyrim is a perfect example of this strategy.

I know I am drawing a lot of conclusions from just a bit of text, and I apologize in advance for any conclusions that are wrong. But these are logical fallacies I see in these discussions very often and I am hoping this clears up any you or any others may have fallen prey to. Neither you nor anyone else is to blame about the current state of affairs with women and video games. The only thing anyone can do wrong at this point is assign blame to anyone over any perfectly natural market trends, and to vilify anyone's desire for change in the market. Because it's changes in the market which brought video games into being, and it's changes in the market that have kept them moving forward ever since. To say that change is bad now is just absurd, and goes against the very principle that brought games to life in the first place.
 

TehCookie

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Remember when we use to play as a robot rabbit who saves aliens? Or a frog dodging traffic? Those were the days, no one gave a fuck about gender.
 

Mouse One

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Jan 22, 2011
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The "why aren't there more women making games?" question is a good one, one that probably deserves its own thread. Unlike the perceived gender imbalance in online games (which exists, it just isn't as severe as many think), there is a very real imbalance on dev teams.

I mean, I remember my Photoshop classes being at least half female. But the Maya class had only three, four if you count the one who dropped after day one. That was about ten percent of the class. I later went onto a smaller school for videogame design. No women at all.

I think it's a stretch to say that has anything to do with talent, given the fantastic graphic artists out there who have two X chromosomes. I'm guessing that it just has something to do with a "boys club" atmosphere in the industry. But honestly, just guessing.

I'm currently working for a game company that does have a decent number of women (okay, three out of a team of ten). But it's a casual game (don't boo! It's not like Farmville) so take that for what it's worth.
 

Overusedname

Emcee: the videogame video guy
Jun 26, 2012
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Mouse One said:
I think it's a stretch to say that has anything to do with talent, given the fantastic graphic artists out there who have two X chromosomes. I'm guessing that it just has something to do with a "boys club" atmosphere in the industry. But honestly, just guessing.
In my experience, the old (young?) boy's club theory makes a lot of sense.

It's still true that women in the same position make less money, and get hired less often.

Most of the best artists I know are all women.
 

DementedSheep

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Well I?ve been playing games since I was old enough to hold a controller pretty. Granted I?m only 20 so I can hardly claim to have been here at gaming?s inception but it has been a part of me for most of my life.

As a kid did I feel peer pressured to liking one thing but not another? Yes I did though not so much when I was very young. My mother isn?t into particularly girly things and gamed a little herself (mostly Doom if she had a bad day at work) so I never had pressure from that. When I was in primary school I didn?t really have this issue either. I hung out with a group of both guys and girls and we spent most of our time mock fighting and pretending to be Pokémon trainers. I didn?t even know this was supposed to be weird. Intermediate changed that through. My friends either left the country or went to different schools, genders became more separated and I was very shy around people I didn?t know so had trouble making friends and got bullied a bit. I ended up hanging out with a bunch of girls who while nice had very little in common with me. They often sat around talking about tv or their latest ?crush? and I mostly just stayed quiet or tried to go along with it a bit (despite the fact that I don?t watch tv much and have never had crush.) since I didn?t have the courage to approach the people who were doing things I wanted to do and didn?t want to offend them. This is also when I started to game online so I became aware of the negative reaction female gamers get. I also wanted to get into comics too but was too embarrassed to buy them or even look at them in a store if other people are around (I still do this, it?s a bad habit). This got better about mid way through high school though when I again found people I could relate too and now that I?m in uni gaming seems to be the norm. I don?t really hide the gaming now though I don?t usually bring it up with people I don?t know and I avoid cons. I won?t use a mic when gaming online for obvious reasons.

The whole ?girls are only into gaming now for male attention? things pisses me off for so many reason. Yeah there are a lot more girls into gaming than there use to be. There are also a lot more GUYS into gaming that there use to be but of the course the new female gamers must be following the men right? Rather than there being more girls into gaming now for the same reason as there is more guys. Do you really think most girls game just so they can get insults hurled at them, be accused of being an attention whore and be grilled about their own hobby because people think their fakes? Sure that is attention but its not what most would consider good attention.
Gaming is a much bigger industry now, the tech has improved, it?s marketed more, is more easily accessible and isn?t so much of niche hobby. Yeah there are a few girls who after attention (though I feel the need to point out fact that them being attention seeking doesn?t mean they are not gamers though some might not be) they are the ones who get noticed the most because they are the ones drawing attention to themselves. You could be meeting girls all the time in online games but unless they tell you they are female you wouldn?t know and you don't know who is playing the single player games.

If all girls are into gaming for attention then why is there a push to get the fact that girls gaming is not uncommon acknowledged? If it?s considered normal you lose the ?special snowflake? status and so lose the attention.
It also seems incredibly arrogant to think this way. Not everything in woman?s life revolves around getting the attention of men. I also think this line of reasoning is why some guys don?t seem to get why many girls might not like the scantily clad, posing provocatively female characters. ?But she?s hot! This makes her a female power fantasy right?? not necessarily, the height of every woman?s ambition is not to give guys boners.

*rant over*
 

Tippy

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Jul 3, 2012
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^ That is generally what I was talking about. Now they all seem like a bunch of guys being guys, and can they really be blamed if they neglect to develop female characters as extensively as their male counterparts, or go a little over the edge in sexualizing/objectivising females?

No, just because they're all men doesn't mean they can go doing whatever they like e.g. being outright discriminatory with sensitive topics like rape. That's called a dick move. But people absolutely have to agree that the majority of developers being male plays a PART in why video gaming can be so unrepresentative of women.





I dare a bunch of female developers to come up with Dead Or Alive: Beach Volleyball Men's Edition. Lets put aside the fact that such a game would most likely make a loss due to an utter lack of sales, even though in theory 42% of gamers are female and would love watching men playing volleyball in shorts (and therefore the game should be a hit, right?).

I dare female experts of Starcraft, Halo, etc to show up to tournaments en-masse - 42% of gamers are female, and they dislike it when we label them "casuals"? THEN PROVE IT BY SHOWING UP, show the world that women DO game a lot even at the hardcore levels.

I see jack-all girls at MLG circuits, I see jack-all girls at GotFrag tourneys, or Tt ESports, or SK Gaming. This "42%" number just isn't being FELT, for now it's just a number floating in the air.

Dexter111 said:
I think the problem people have is feminists entering "gaming" and trying to make a big deal out of it and creating all these controversies over all these things, also trying to manipulate game design to cater to their goals and force their beliefs on the larger population...
This is definitely another part of the equation. Even though feminists may/may not care about gaming as a whole (their goal is to empower females, not improve gaming), they are still good at bringing out the megaphones, causing a commotion, drawing attention and summoning the media.
Female gamers were alright with most games, and the ones which wrongly depicted them as sexual objects pissed them off - but not enough to outright start protesting and rioting against game developers. But when they see a group of feminists rallying against the notion, of course they will join along to make themselves heard via the feminists. If I was a female I would join along as well.

For now, "42%" is just a statistic and nothing more. I would like to see it change, I want at least 2 people in each of these photos to be girls:











I know the above look like a bunch of handpicked pictures, but ideally I should be struggling to find such pictures if females truly cared about gaming as much as they claim to.
 

SonicWaffle

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Phasmal said:
It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not).
In fairness, employees at game stores seem to love doing this regardless of gender. I had the dude at Blockbuster the other day trying to explain that new crime game (something dogs? Street Dogs maybe?) to me, being all "Have you heard of GTA?". Dude, just because I'm renting Amazing Spiderman - shut up, it's for research purposes! - doesn't mean I've never played video games before.

On the other hand, they can be pretty cool too. One of the girls at the local Game, back when we had a local Game, nearly got in trouble for holding up the queue because we were having an intense conversation about the fucking Riddler and how much we hated his stupid fucking trophy puzzles. Actually, all the people there were pretty cool - I had a lengthly Ryu vs Ken discussion with a beardy man once, and a different guy let us leave the midnight launch of Skyrim with one of those promotional horned hats they gave away to employees, although in that case it may just have been because we were clearly drunk and pretty unlikely to give the hat back if he asked...
 

Pearwood

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Overusedname said:
The reaction the Escapist had to the linked thread has given me a lot of hope; almost everyone was repulsed by the video's implications.
Don't advertise that thread. It doesn't deserve it, it certainly doesn't deserve a structured response. Nothing of any importance or interest was discussed in it.

Tippy said:
Female gamers were alright with most games, and the ones which wrongly depicted them as sexual objects pissed them off - but not enough to outright start protesting and rioting against game developers. But when they see a group of feminists rallying against the notion, of course they will join along to make themselves heard via the feminists. If I was a female I would join along as well.
Isn't the fact that it's a continual annoyance that shows no sign of stopping on its own a perfectly valid reason to protest it?
 

Xaio30

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Nov 24, 2010
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
*Kicks and punches her way through a wall*

SUP

Been playing since I was 3 in 1984, I get really angry with some boys telling me that I'm invading their hobby. So please don't do that. Also I have been called 'lesbian' and suchlike from guys for liking games (mostly in school). So it's no wonder some girls kept it a secret.

I spent £345 on games last month (I fully accept I have a problem.)

Water Tribe out.

That post was so boss, it cured me of my imaginary cancer.

OT: Not sure what to discuss here. HEY GAMER WOMEN! DO WHAT THIS ONE DID! IT WAS AWESOME!
 

bluepilot

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Jul 10, 2009
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Elate said:
My only problem is booth babes and their ilk, girl gamers are fine, aside from sometimes being the worst fucking fan boys (Oh irony) why would I ever even think they were new? But booth babes? Please, they probably don't even know the genre of a game they're promoting, just eye candy, I find it offensive.

That and girls that are all "OH I'M A GAMER" and then I'm like "Oh cool.. what do you play?" and they respond with something like "I PLAY ZELDA ON MY WII."... THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A GAMER, THAT MEANS YOU'VE PLAYED A FRACTION OF GAMES.

-Long exhale.- But that includes male "gamers" who only play CoD on their 360 with brofriends, they aren't gamers in my eyes either.
I'm a *girl* and I played Zelda on the wii. In fact I've played and defeated every Zelda game to date, including that bastard of a game, "adventures of Link".

I should not have to defend myself just because I really like effeminate men in tight pants (pointy!! POINTY!!)

Though the first game I ever beat was "Rodland" on the amiga 500, ahh I miss joysticks

I guess I see you point about some girls who assume the 'gamer' identity just from a bit of dabbing in the shadows, but if they enjoyed it, does it really matter that they gaming experience doesn't meet your own? At the end of the day, it is something to start on. There is a big difference between growing up with games and discovering them later in life. No-one becomes a gamer overnight
 

theblindedhunter

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Jul 8, 2012
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Hoping to make things more clear, I think the problems are with things like this (or they are at least the statements I take the most issue with):
Tippy said:
Now they all seem like a bunch of guys being guys, and can they really be blamed if they neglect to develop female characters as extensively as their male counterparts, or go a little over the edge in sexualizing/objectivising females?

No, just because they're all men doesn't mean they can go doing whatever they like e.g. being outright discriminatory with sensitive topics like rape. That's called a dick move. But people absolutely have to agree that the majority of developers being male plays a PART in why video gaming can be so unrepresentative of women.
Yes, the male majority absolutely plays a part in women being poorly represented in some games - but why should that be okay that they do that? The point of a lot of the discussion about it is that these male developers should have the wherewithal to try making good female characters instead of just throwing them in as eye candy or a damsel in distress. It is understandable if they do, in some cases more than others, but it isn't okay that they do. Every game developer and designer should be held to a higher standard than that.

I know the above look like a bunch of handpicked pictures, but ideally I should be struggling to find such pictures if females truly cared about gaming as much as they claim to.
This is just plain offensive. Women have to prove to you their claims of being interested in games and gaming? This is the thing that most makes the community feel like a boy's club. "Hey girls, I guess you can come into our clubhouse, but first you have to prove to us boys, the leaders of gaming, that you like it how we think you should!" Its ridiculous. Why the hell can't girls just be accepted to enjoy gaming like everyone else without them having to meet this criterion? Since there are few women jobs in game development, all the opinions and feelings of women playing games everywhere are invalidated? Or better yet they just don't exist because they are just claims?
(And I haven't even started on what it suggests to say that women are only "claiming" these things - do they have some reason to lie? Would you say it is to get attention?)
 

Phasmal

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Jun 10, 2011
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SonicWaffle said:
Phasmal said:
It does bother me when people act like gaming is something I picked up a few minutes ago and try to explain it to me (I get these type of guys talk to me in game shops- I always considered myself to look like a geeky girl but apparently not).
In fairness, employees at game stores seem to love doing this regardless of gender. I had the dude at Blockbuster the other day trying to explain that new crime game (something dogs? Street Dogs maybe?) to me, being all "Have you heard of GTA?". Dude, just because I'm renting Amazing Spiderman - shut up, it's for research purposes! - doesn't mean I've never played video games before.

On the other hand, they can be pretty cool too. One of the girls at the local Game, back when we had a local Game, nearly got in trouble for holding up the queue because we were having an intense conversation about the fucking Riddler and how much we hated his stupid fucking trophy puzzles. Actually, all the people there were pretty cool - I had a lengthly Ryu vs Ken discussion with a beardy man once, and a different guy let us leave the midnight launch of Skyrim with one of those promotional horned hats they gave away to employees, although in that case it may just have been because we were clearly drunk and pretty unlikely to give the hat back if he asked...
Oh, sorry, I thought it was clear from what I wrote but... dude didn't work there. He was just some guy in the shop.
I usually love chatting with the employees though, we usually can have a good chat. Sadly, we moved recently and the nearest shop that does games to us is a movie shop and the people in there don't give a toss about games. =(
 

LittleBlondeGoth

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bluepilot said:
Though the first game I ever beat was "Rodland" on the amiga 500, ahh I miss joysticks
Oh God, I remember Rodland, I played that too. And Rainbow Islands. And New Zealand Story. And Bubble Bobble. And...

I got into gaming back in 1985(ish) when my junior school wheeled a BBC Micro into my classroom with Granny's Garden and The Wizards Revenge on it. I was 7 years old, and that was the first time I fell in love. In fact, I had to be physically prised off that Micro at the end of the day because I wanted to carry on and finish the games. Then Christmas '89 my parents bought me and my younger brother the Amiga 500 Batman Pack, and I never looked back.

I went to an all girl secondary school, but no-one else really played games. Didn't stop me doing it. Hell, I also went to ballet classes every night, so it's not like I was even your typical gaming nerd. I loved that Amiga and the games it had - Cannon Fodder, Speedball II, XCom, Ultima, Zool. Since then my collection has only increased, to the point where I think I might have more hardware and software than my local GAME store. I've even turned one of my spare bedrooms into a dedicated games room. OK, there's a second PS3 in my bedroom in case I can't be bothered to get up. Sue me.

It wasn't until I was older that I realised games were seen more as a boys thing. I went into IT as a career, and tudied computer programming at GCSE, A Level and Degree. As I went through school there were gradually less and less women doing the courses I was. I ended up going into the Web rather than games development, but if I'd known how to get a foot in that door, I'd have given it a shot.

Still, I walked into GAME the other day in my N7 tee, and had a couple of people sneak over to me and tell me it was brilliant. Had a reasonably long discussion with one of them over our Shep builds (I favour the FemShep Paragon Infiltrator, in case you're interested).
 

Overusedname

Emcee: the videogame video guy
Jun 26, 2012
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Tippy said:
I know the above look like a bunch of handpicked pictures, but ideally I should be struggling to find such pictures if females truly cared about gaming as much as they claim to.
Old boys club.

Basic rules of economy in a patriarchy.

Which this industry still is. Women don't feel welcome due to the blatant hate and supposed 'ulterior motives' several adult men accuse them of.

What exactly makes them feel welcome enough to pursue a career in it? They already get harassed in their hobby, why not get harassed at work?

Obviously there are plenty of gaming communities and workplaces that aren't like that, but can you blame women for not feeling welcome?
 

ElPatron

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Tippy said:
^ That is generally what I was talking about. Now they all se
em like a bunch of guys being guys, and can they really be blamed if they neglect to develop female characters as extensively as their male counterparts, or go a little over the edge in sexualizing/objectivising females?

No, just because they're all men doesn't mean they can go doing whatever they like
No. Having freedom of speech means they can go doing whatever they like. Wanna write a novel about a pedophile? You can do it as long as you're not inciting criminal behavior.

For something's sake, they have to neglect female characterization if they are born with a penis. If I tried to write female dialogue for anything, it would be the blandest grey-slurry shit ever seen because I would try to play it safe and not try to step on anyone's toes.

And for crying out loud, we have magazines (some aimed at men, others at women), we have the whole film industry and shit where it's all about sex - people seem to have gotten tired of arguing about those things because nobody actually cares anymore, so we have to bully the new kid on the block (the one with some mental issues or something) called "Gaming".

And about the objectification - the last thing I want to share sex with are inanimate objects. The whole concept of "objectification" of women probably makes sense to people who are used to their hands and their Jengas/Fleshlights. Not to me.

bluepilot said:
I guess I see you point about some girls who assume the 'gamer' identity just from a bit of dabbing in the shadows, but if they enjoyed it, does it really matter that they gaming experience doesn't meet your own? At the end of the day, it is something to start on. There is a big difference between growing up with games and discovering them later in life. No-one becomes a gamer overnight
I already said I hate the term "gamer".

People don't become audiophiles for listening to whatever is on the radio. People don't become cinephiles for watching whatever is on TV.

My problem with the term "gamer" is that we have to draw a line. If we're going by the "experience" argument, the I have to be forced to admit that 5 seconds are enough to build an experience. Then I will give up and admit that the term "gamer" applies to 90% of the >30 population in first world countries, making the use of such a term useless.