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FenrirsWilly

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Robyrt said:
FenrirsWilly said:
I have a hypothetical scenario for the OP.

Say there is a man, he has a wife, 2 kids, nice house and a well paying job. He is nice to his neighbors, gives money to different charities, volunteers his time at a homeless shelter, etc. Basically I'm trying to propose a man who is by all means a good person, but this man doesn't believe in God, not through any ill will, he just feels that religion isn't for him.

How can the bible justify sending this kind of person to hell when he dies?
Not to step on the OP's toes here - here's my take on the situation.
Such a "good person" who has never lied, cheated, envied, etc. does not exist. ("For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.") Even if he did exist, he would still have intentionally rejected God, and thus fallen afoul of the 1st Commandment. To declare yourself so holy that you don't need to acknowledge the epitome of holiness is an insidious form of pride, akin to the comic book villain saying, "My plan cannot fail!"

Christianity doesn't promise that you will become a 100% good person upon signing up, and cover all the requirements for righteousness. It promises that Jesus will foot the bill for the difference.
I'm aware that such a person doesn't exist, but they could in theory. Using only the 1st Commandment to condemn someone to hell sounds alot like saying "I'm going to punish you because you don't listen to me, then I'm going to go and cry to my mommy."
 

Mr. Moose

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Why do people believe Satan is evil when it clearly states in Revelations that he his chained up by God in the Darkness, and that the only time he has ever done any wrong is during Job, and even then God told him to.
 

Robyrt

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FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
sneakypenguin said:
Just one question if God pre-chooses who can get saved. Why would he create people for hell with no way out. He would be punishing them for something they can not help. Thats like punishing a deaf person for not being able to hear. It makes no sense!
To me thats beyond cruel. That is not a just or fair God.
This is really the same question, with the same answer. God creates people with free will. Because he is omniscient, he knows that some of them are going to hell - but they will do it of their own free will, by breaking the laws. For the law to maintain integrity, for God to be "just and fair", it has to have actual consequences attached to it - God is perfectly within his rights to send everyone to hell if he so chooses. Fortunately, he is not cruel, and so the option to avoid hell exists.
By that logic whether or not you get into heaven or hell depends purely on God's whim, since you just said he is within his rights to send a person to hell if he chooses. God could let the worst kind of people into heaven and send good people to hell purely because he feels like it.
The legitimacy of the system depends on God being fundamentally good and just as well as all-powerful. Hell is set up as a punishment, so for him to send a good person to hell would violate his own laws.
Furthermore, God could send everyone to hell because people start out bad by default, thanks to original sin. Once someone falls into the "good" category thanks to God's intervention, to send them to hell anyway would be to say that God has no power to rescue people from himself. This doesn't make any sense.
 

FenrirsWilly

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Robyrt said:
FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
sneakypenguin said:
Just one question if God pre-chooses who can get saved. Why would he create people for hell with no way out. He would be punishing them for something they can not help. Thats like punishing a deaf person for not being able to hear. It makes no sense!
To me thats beyond cruel. That is not a just or fair God.
This is really the same question, with the same answer. God creates people with free will. Because he is omniscient, he knows that some of them are going to hell - but they will do it of their own free will, by breaking the laws. For the law to maintain integrity, for God to be "just and fair", it has to have actual consequences attached to it - God is perfectly within his rights to send everyone to hell if he so chooses. Fortunately, he is not cruel, and so the option to avoid hell exists.
By that logic whether or not you get into heaven or hell depends purely on God's whim, since you just said he is within his rights to send a person to hell if he chooses. God could let the worst kind of people into heaven and send good people to hell purely because he feels like it.
The legitimacy of the system depends on God being fundamentally good and just as well as all-powerful. Hell is set up as a punishment, so for him to send a good person to hell would violate his own laws.
Furthermore, God could send everyone to hell because people start out bad by default, thanks to original sin. Once someone falls into the "good" category thanks to God's intervention, to send them to hell anyway would be to say that God has no power to rescue people from himself. This doesn't make any sense.
That is the inherent problem that I find with Christianity, that somehow we are all sinners to start with no matter what. If God wanted to be fair, everyone would start at a kind of "neutral" position (thus ending up in purgatory if you died without committing any other sin).
 

beddo

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Robyrt said:
beddo said:
I have one question:

If God is all powerful and God knows everything then how can anyone be responsible for their actions?

By this very definition, he knew everything you were going to do when he chose to make you so the responsibility for your actions are his and not yours.
Christianity is not a deterministic system - it argues that you are able to override your genetics and upbringing and thus you are responsible for your actions. God knows what you will do, but he didn't force you to do it (and in fact he offers incentives for doing the right things), so it's not his fault you did it.
Well as a mathematician, let me tell you that your logic is flawed. Once again, by definition, IF he knew what you were going to do AND he made you THEN he is responsible for what you do.

You cannot rise above it because he knows whether you will or not thus we come to the same conclusion, that he is responsible for your actions.

It's not a case of being forced to do things, under the definitions that God is all-knowing and all-powerful (leaving out benevolent because) then all actions are pre-determined.

The larger question - is God responsible for not having prevented your action when he knew it would happen? - is much more difficult, and often put into the "mystery" category.
Well if he doesn't prevent negative actions then this would negate the idea of him being benevolent. As he quite clearly intervenes when people prey how does he justify 'answering' prayers of some(direct interaction in the physical world) and not others, for example; people starving in Africa?

Saying Gods actions a mysterious is a total cop-out. Imagine if our scientists said the same for example:

Student: Why does sodium react when we put it in water?

Teacher: It's a MYSTERY!!!!


Your comeback of course is going to be related to 'free will' which we just established can't exist under the conditions that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and made everything.

In which case I propose the following question: Why couldn't God, who is all powerful create a universe where we all have free choice and no negative actions could exist?
 

beddo

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FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
sneakypenguin said:
Just one question if God pre-chooses who can get saved. Why would he create people for hell with no way out. He would be punishing them for something they can not help. Thats like punishing a deaf person for not being able to hear. It makes no sense!
To me thats beyond cruel. That is not a just or fair God.
This is really the same question, with the same answer. God creates people with free will. Because he is omniscient, he knows that some of them are going to hell - but they will do it of their own free will, by breaking the laws. For the law to maintain integrity, for God to be "just and fair", it has to have actual consequences attached to it - God is perfectly within his rights to send everyone to hell if he so chooses. Fortunately, he is not cruel, and so the option to avoid hell exists.
By that logic whether or not you get into heaven or hell depends purely on God's whim, since you just said he is within his rights to send a person to hell if he chooses. God could let the worst kind of people into heaven and send good people to hell purely because he feels like it.
The legitimacy of the system depends on God being fundamentally good and just as well as all-powerful. Hell is set up as a punishment, so for him to send a good person to hell would violate his own laws.
Furthermore, God could send everyone to hell because people start out bad by default, thanks to original sin. Once someone falls into the "good" category thanks to God's intervention, to send them to hell anyway would be to say that God has no power to rescue people from himself. This doesn't make any sense.
That is the inherent problem that I find with Christianity, that somehow we are all sinners to start with no matter what. If God wanted to be fair, everyone would start at a kind of "neutral" position (thus ending up in purgatory if you died without committing any other sin).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5412166.stm

Well limbo doesn't exist any more according to the Catholics.

Also, according to Christianity you can't go to hell if you never had the chance to know Jesus. As the only other place is Heaven surely the Christians would be doing everyone a favour by not preaching Christianity, then no-one would be able to go to hell. It's their rules.
 

FenrirsWilly

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Sep 15, 2008
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beddo said:
FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
sneakypenguin said:
Just one question if God pre-chooses who can get saved. Why would he create people for hell with no way out. He would be punishing them for something they can not help. Thats like punishing a deaf person for not being able to hear. It makes no sense!
To me thats beyond cruel. That is not a just or fair God.
This is really the same question, with the same answer. God creates people with free will. Because he is omniscient, he knows that some of them are going to hell - but they will do it of their own free will, by breaking the laws. For the law to maintain integrity, for God to be "just and fair", it has to have actual consequences attached to it - God is perfectly within his rights to send everyone to hell if he so chooses. Fortunately, he is not cruel, and so the option to avoid hell exists.
By that logic whether or not you get into heaven or hell depends purely on God's whim, since you just said he is within his rights to send a person to hell if he chooses. God could let the worst kind of people into heaven and send good people to hell purely because he feels like it.
The legitimacy of the system depends on God being fundamentally good and just as well as all-powerful. Hell is set up as a punishment, so for him to send a good person to hell would violate his own laws.
Furthermore, God could send everyone to hell because people start out bad by default, thanks to original sin. Once someone falls into the "good" category thanks to God's intervention, to send them to hell anyway would be to say that God has no power to rescue people from himself. This doesn't make any sense.
That is the inherent problem that I find with Christianity, that somehow we are all sinners to start with no matter what. If God wanted to be fair, everyone would start at a kind of "neutral" position (thus ending up in purgatory if you died without committing any other sin).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5412166.stm

Well limbo doesn't exist any more according to the Catholics.

Also, according to Christianity you can't go to hell if you never had the chance to know Jesus. As the only other place is Heaven surely the Christians would be doing everyone a favour by not preaching Christianity, then no-one would be able to go to hell. It's their rules.
So with no more limo/purgatory, unbaptised babies are going to hell, isn't that just great, God is sending babies to hell.
 

beddo

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Dec 12, 2007
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FenrirsWilly said:
beddo said:
FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
FenrirsWilly said:
Robyrt said:
sneakypenguin said:
Just one question if God pre-chooses who can get saved. Why would he create people for hell with no way out. He would be punishing them for something they can not help. Thats like punishing a deaf person for not being able to hear. It makes no sense!
To me thats beyond cruel. That is not a just or fair God.
This is really the same question, with the same answer. God creates people with free will. Because he is omniscient, he knows that some of them are going to hell - but they will do it of their own free will, by breaking the laws. For the law to maintain integrity, for God to be "just and fair", it has to have actual consequences attached to it - God is perfectly within his rights to send everyone to hell if he so chooses. Fortunately, he is not cruel, and so the option to avoid hell exists.
By that logic whether or not you get into heaven or hell depends purely on God's whim, since you just said he is within his rights to send a person to hell if he chooses. God could let the worst kind of people into heaven and send good people to hell purely because he feels like it.
The legitimacy of the system depends on God being fundamentally good and just as well as all-powerful. Hell is set up as a punishment, so for him to send a good person to hell would violate his own laws.
Furthermore, God could send everyone to hell because people start out bad by default, thanks to original sin. Once someone falls into the "good" category thanks to God's intervention, to send them to hell anyway would be to say that God has no power to rescue people from himself. This doesn't make any sense.
That is the inherent problem that I find with Christianity, that somehow we are all sinners to start with no matter what. If God wanted to be fair, everyone would start at a kind of "neutral" position (thus ending up in purgatory if you died without committing any other sin).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5412166.stm

Well limbo doesn't exist any more according to the Catholics.

Also, according to Christianity you can't go to hell if you never had the chance to know Jesus. As the only other place is Heaven surely the Christians would be doing everyone a favour by not preaching Christianity, then no-one would be able to go to hell. It's their rules.
So with no more limo/purgatory, unbaptised babies are going to hell, isn't that just great, God is sending babies to hell.
No, unbaptised babies go to heaven and all the ones they thought were in purgatory were actually in heaven.

I wish God would make his mind up, you would have thought he'd written some kind of book that tells us all about everything so we wouldn't get confused!
 

Raven_Letters

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As much as I dread making posts in a public forum, I guess perhaps it was time that someone tried to bring some common sense to this.

Ladies and Gentlemen: The OP made it pretty clear that he was a - "reformed, evangelical, conservative Christian. (aka bible based)". What this means to my admittedly limited understanding is that he is a Believer in the Christian faith and looks upon the Bible as the more or less literal word of God, and all that goes with it, including but not limited to Atheists such as myself going to hell, and anyone not baptized or otherwise accepting of the faith.

For people to actually try to argue with him on scientific, moral or theological grounds is an exercise in total and utter futility - especially if your attempting to win "hearts and minds".

At the end of the day you can only preach to the converted, and a true believer is not going change his mind on matters just because your attempting to point out logical or even illogical issues with his faith - that's why its called "faith". Indeed any attempt to attack him merely serves reinforce his faith since a person's faith is nothing if it is not tested - very much like Job.

I consider myself to be an atheist, but that does not mean that I have be intolerant of someone's religious beliefs. I know to a fair degree my Bibles, Korans, Torahs, Vedas, Zend Avestas, Das Capitals, and whatever commentary goes with it. I see that they al have some to add to the Human Adventure, even if some of it can be quite..lacking in humanity. This however does not mean that they cannot be appreciated in and off themselves by even Atheists such as myself. For me religion is more a matter of aesthetics than a matter of faith.

My point here is that if your religion provides you the necessary moral foundation to be a gentle , compassionate and decent human being, then that says as much about you as your religion.

However if in the name of your religion you can rape, torture, mutilate, oppress and murder, just because "it says so".. well then people like me can also discover religion overnight, one of the tenets of this newly discovered religious epiphany will be shoving my boot up the backside of the people who say that they can do all of the above in the name of their religion.

I am not particularly concerned what a person's religious or ideological views are, just so long as they don't hold a gun to people's heads, literally or metaphorically.

The Wicked have and probably will continue to use religion as a justification for their own actions, but so can those who don't use religion. The flip side however is that you don't need religion to know that in most instances murder in cold blood, (this precludes in defense of another whose life is in immediate danger) or rape, or torture or mutilation is wrong. You don't need religion to tell you that, you just KNOW - just like a Believer.

If the OP believes Gays, Pro-Choicers, Atheists, Jews, peoples of other religions and Christians not of his denomination are going to hell, how does this matter to you? Its what HE DOES not what he SAYS or BELIEVES that matters. I can only hope that a man who sincerely believes in his faith, understands the distinction between the spirit of the word and the letter of the word. That if someone is to be a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu , Communist, etc etc , knows that they know that the world is better served by love, compassion and mercy than fury, wrath and vengeance.
 

FenrirsWilly

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Raven_Letters said:
If the OP believes Gays, Pro-Choicers, Atheists, Jews, peoples of other religions and Christians not of his denomination are going to hell, how does this matter to you? Its what HE DOES not what he SAYS or BELIEVES that matters. I can only hope that a man who sincerely believes in his faith, understands the distinction between the spirit of the word and the letter of the word. That if someone is to be a good Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu , Communist, etc etc , knows that they know that the world is better served by love, compassion and mercy than fury, wrath and vengeance.
So when has Communism been a religion?
 

AlphaWolf13

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AgentCLXXXIII said:
Hello my fellow believer.

Do you, like I, believe that The Crusades were in truth a beautiful effort and a great face for Christianity despite what other non-believers think?
I SWEAR this has /sarcasm written all over it...
 

Alex_P

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If I recall correctly, the Bible says that souls who go to heaven will be purified somehow -- that makes sense internally, since even the saved have sinned, after all. There's been all kinds of confusion and theological hand-wringing about what exactly that purification entails.

The idea of purgatory as a place was never super-official Roman Catholic doctrine. It was always the same kind of the weird gray area of Christianity that includes all kinds of random ancillary mythology that doesn't really have strong roots in the Bible itself(*) -- a mixture of folk beliefs and random priestly extrapolation.

-- Alex
__________
* - Probably the most noteworthy example: "the Antichrist." Totally not in the book.
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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Very well, as a Religious Historian, Theology Scholar and Secular Humanist I shall take up your challenge and ask a question. I am going to try to be fair, so I ask all the Christians on the board to do the same for me, I do not have access to all of my sources and I graduated over a year ago and my current job doesn't allow me much time to do independant research.

That said, I must pose the question...

How does one unify the belief of punishment/reward after death (and the eventual Post Revelation Paradise) and a worthwhile existance in the current material world?

To me these concepts are seperate and different and irreconilable, by accepting that the world to come is the one that matters one inherently belittles the world we live in. To simplify, in basic philosophy and concept Christianity is a religion of Tomorrow, not Today, if you are good you will be rewarded, if you are bad you will be punished etc. What's worse is the Protestant Calvinist message of predestination, which takes your chances of damnation and salvation out of your hands and places them entirely in the hands of God. This makes the present world and your interactions with people irrelevant and implies that no matter what you do if you are chosen you will go to heaven/see paradise and if you are not you will not. All that matters is praising and having faith in your ever loving god, people don't matter, your actions don't matter, all that matters is god.

Compare this to my secular humanist world view. How is the belief in a world to come more moral than my stance that the material world we live in is the only one we get? I only have one life and I need to make it matter, people do not go to heaven so how I treat them is all the more important. I feel a need to be as good as I can, because if I'm not what worth has my life? Yet at the same time I feel free that my actions are my own, that I am not being judged by an absent father who has never shown his face to me nor communicated with me except via obscure riddles from a bygone age. I cannot believe in a god that does not believe in me, if such a supreme being cannot validate my sense of self, why should I look to him for salvation? How can I trust him. He promises and promises, yet all I see are my own contributions. Hence I feel I matter far more than God, I also feel that the actions of other people who share the world with me matter far more than a being I cannot see.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Raven_Letters said:
For people to actually try to argue with him on scientific, moral or theological grounds is an exercise in total and utter futility - especially if your attempting to win "hearts and minds".
Many of the arguments don't directly relate to statements by Max, but to statements made by other people. Basically it derailed from its original purpose when everyone started answering questions directed at the OP.

-- Alex
 

Fingerprint

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Oct 30, 2008
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May I ask why the Bible left out the book of Saint Paul, as he was the first pope (i.e God's representative on earth) just because of his views?

Before every christian contradicts me on the question, I'm not sure if what I wrote is entirely right, it is just my understanding and I am ready and willing to be told otherwise. However if what I have written is correct may I have the answer please.

(Apologies for my possible grammatical errors and any other mistakes)

PS. it is also my understanding that the translation from Hebrew for the words "in" and "on" is in fact the same word so isn't there a case to argue that Jesus' miracle just being a mistranslation?

PPS. I'm not sure about this, but I'm fairly sure that given the right circumstances e.g. position of the moon and other factors that the Red Sea can actually part on it's own accord.
 

Fingerprint

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Oct 30, 2008
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Just to say that the dead sea scrolls would relate to ancient Egyptian religions and im sure that if you look on the net and do the comparisons you will find that there are definite borrowings from Egyptian religion into Christianity.
 

anNIALLator

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Jul 24, 2008
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I haven't noticed my questions answered, so I'll repost.
1. Does the Bible say that incest is wrong? If it does, then how do you explain Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark?
2. Why would God use a flood as a means of mass genocide, when he could have just clicked his fingers and made everyone drop dead?
3. Do any Christians believe that God literally planned everything out, like writing a book, then pressing a magical 'Play' button?
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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piers789 said:
May I ask why the Bible left out the book of Saint Paul, as he was the first pope (i.e God's representative on earth) just because of his views?

Before every christian contradicts me on the question, I'm not sure if what I wrote is entirely right, it is just my understanding and I am ready and willing to be told otherwise. However if what I have written is correct may I have the answer please.

(Apologies for my possible grammatical errors and any other mistakes)

PS. it is also my understanding that the translation from Hebrew for the words "in" and "on" is in fact the same word so isn't there a case to argue that Jesus' miracle just being a mistranslation?

PPS. I'm not sure about this, but I'm fairly sure that given the right circumstances e.g. position of the moon and other factors that the Red Sea can actually part on it's own accord.
Um... wrong, St. Peter was the first Pope (i.e. The first Bishop of Rome, given the keys of Binding and Loosing from the church etc. and I'm pretty sure his gospel is in the bible)

Also it has been conclusively proven that none of the Apostles actually wrote the gospels attributted to them and that there are no new testament writers who could have actually met Jesus.