Roman Catholics used to warp things, even to a point where they tried to kill a guy who converted some of the Bible to english.Alex_P said:
Read Revelation?, thats where the antichrist is. It also says something about hell.
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Read Revelation?, thats where the antichrist is. It also says something about hell.
As I recall there's an interview from the 60's with L. Ron Hubbard saying that he was going to "Make up a religion and get rich doing it".The_root_of_all_evil said:Prove Scientology wrong.SunoffaBeach said:
Satan didn't do anything wrong in Job, he was just setting a precedent for God to be able to do whatever he wants without explanation. As long as he gives you eternal life afterwards. The problem is, people seem to get Milton's Paradise Lost mixed up with the actual Bible, and as such think that Satan is evil. Satan is just there to 'throw stones in our path' as it were.Mr. Moose said:
Firstly the Bible says nothing about the Pope.piers789 said:
Secondly Catholics think the first Pope was Peter not Paul.
Thirdly, the majority of the New Testament was written by Paul.
The reed sea (probably the Biblical Red Sea) does have a low tide which makes it possible to cross by foot - this however still means God was involved in the process just as much as he would be if it parted at random.
Your first PS. - that conclusion does not follow the premise. Invalid.
And seriously you don't need to apologize for grammar dude haha. This aint school.
And pedro you are absolutely wrong. Can you tell what book gave you that information? Certainly not the Bible or any reliable Bible scholar.
Some New Testament writers refer to their own contact with Jesus such as Paul, Peter, James and Jude (who are Jesus' brothers) and John. That's the whole New Testament bar maybe 4 books. Luke was a first century historian who didn't meet Jesus but researched everyone who did. People love saying unfounded comments here.
Answers to:anNIALLator said:
1. Firstly the Genesis story is written in an early form of Hebrew Poetry - it is not meant to be taken literally. But for evolution to take place (scientifically) incest had to occur. But in an evolved world, the law in Deuteronomy says incest is a sin.
2. I'm not God, so I can't really answer that question - but Peter says in the New Testament that the flood was a sign of things to come of firstly, cleansing of the world of sin through Jesus "baptism" (not a literal baptism a metaphor of his descending into death and rising into life) and secondly a sign of the end times where instead of water, the world will be consumed by fire and only God's people will escape. To be honest the idea of a mass flood (post-ice age) linearly followed eventually by the earth being consumed by fire (a continuation of earth's current situation) is entirely scientifically plausible.
3. The Bible says that God planned everything out, but didn't just flick a switch and go have a shower, it says he's directly involved in sustaining every single event in the whole universe. The sinews of our body holding together, the universe expanding - Revelation talks about the Book Of Life which has all of God's chosen people written in it suggesting (in metaphor) that God has actually planned everything as if in a book. Proverbs 16 says he determines the steps of man and that he makes everything single thing in the universe 'for himself' even people who go to Hell.
Sneaky Penguin, Christians need to sort out disagreements.
How do two people come up with different interpretations? Sin. Does that mean both can't be right? Yes.
Sorry, but I found it funny how you quoted Bible verses AGAINST a whole stack of other Bible verses that say the word "predestination".
Doesn't it seem completely illogical to you? If the Bible is that fallible to you, don't quote it against itself as if you're giving it any weight.
Your verses proved nothing too.
Watch this.
"Whoever believes in me will have eternal life" - John 3
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" - John 6
And again.
"You did not choose me, but I chose you" - John 15
Who believes? Those the Father draws and chooses.
There's no contradictions there.
So you think that no Glory can be given God without free will?
Answer this then.
If having free will to good and evil makes us proper humans, it follows under your reckoning:
a) we are more human than individuals in heaven who are unable to do evil because God has stopped it. Heck they must be robots.
b) we have more will power than God (see how ridiculous this is) who can only do good.
Challenge:
Find one verse in the Bible that refers to "free will".
Ill show you a couple that say the word "predestine":
"For those God foreknew he also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers." Romans 8:29 (NIV)
"He PREDESTINED us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will" Ephesians 1:5 (NIV)
"In Him we were also chosen, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will" Ephesians 1:11 (NIV)
Come on sneakypenguin, this a matter of humility.
"Let God be true, and every man a liar" Romans 3:4
If free will existed, Romans clearly says we wouldn't choose salvation because "No-one is righteous not even one...there is no-one who does good...there is no-one who seeks God" - we are helpless "SLAVES TO SIN" Romans 6.
But God fixes it like this.
"You see, at just the right time, WHEN WE WERE STILL POWERLESS, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, CHRIST DIED FOR US." Romans 5:6-8
And also, for you budding young atheist.
A word of advice.
I have never ever heard a Christian say "You can't disprove God so that means I'm right and you're wrong"
Just keep burning that straw man.
Come on, lift your game. Aren't atheists meant to be the "smart" guys?
The 'proof' of God always arises when you try to put an entity such as God into science. Science is based on evidence. The only evidence for God is the Bible, which for a scientist isn't good enough. This is why any true scientist should technically be agnostic, because God cannot be understood in any scientific basis (more or less by definition).jordan. said:
And can you please use spoiler tags (
) when you quote large passages from the bible? It would make the thread a lot easier to read.
My personal interpretation is that you are put on the earth with free will and you make your choices throughout your life to do what you want to do, then God judges your choices. I also think God planned out every possible turn of chance or can see which choices come of a certain choice, like some sort of flowchart. I very well may be wrong, this is but my attempt to wrap my head around things beyond my ken.PedroSteckecilo said:
Anyway, the gist of it is, you make your choices, you die, and you get what you gave.
The thing is, when you really understand Christianity, you'll see it's not about what you are not supposed to do (Don't kill, steal, lie, etc.) so much as what you are supposed to do (Be kind, respect, try and make they world a better place, if not just your corner of it).
Well, if you'll accept an Episcopalian's responses, you just wanted "someone" to answer.perfectimo said:
Regarding killing bad people doing something wrong by the Bible, it really depends on what that wrong thing is. Last I checked no one thought it was terribly ethical to stone people to death for eating shellfish, no matter how bad the person was.
Judging people isn't a sin, it's just a sign that you're an asshole. We're still debating if being an asshole is a sin.
Direct descent from Adam and Eve? As an Anglican, I say nay. But plenty of people say "aye", so I'm not in a position to comment.
Well thanks but I am about to perform a semi-sin.greygelgoog said:
Can one of the more devout christians answer these?
Sorry if it's been answered before in the topic, but why is being gay immoral? Are they not considered equal humans?
Got to the bottom of page 6 having read everything and i've got to say there are some really good questions in between the people just flaming and trolling. Might have to read the rest when its not half 2 in the morning. Anyway...
perfectimo said:It states quite specifically in the bible do not murder so as such any killing of another person regardless of the reason is a sin.greygelgoog said:
Is judging people a sin is a good question. There is a verse that says 'judge not lest ye be judged' but i would say its not a sin to judge someone because a judge has to decide whether a criminal has done a crime that he is being accused of, he weighs up evidence and comes to a conclusion right or wrong. This act is not a sin and although people judge others outside of court i would say judging is mearly making preconceptions about a person and its only if you act upon these and start being ignorant or predudice that you are in danger of sinning. So in short no judging is not a sin, but it can result in ignorance/predjudice.
There are quite afew differing views about the descending directly from adam and eve, if you look in the bible there is a list of decendants going directly to Jesus, so i would say yes there are people who have adam and eve as one of their great (add nausia) grand parents. However there are also some views that God made other people around the world to make a more diverse gene pool, however even if that were true you are still very (add more nausia) very likely to still be related to adam and eve due to the way that a family tree spans out. One important thing to consider is that in early old testemant people were living to 700 years and therefore can chuck out ALOT of kids with which to then make more kids and eventually become related to alot of people 200 years down the line. Doing some nice maths (dont ask for the sums because i'm making alot of guesses so this is just going to give an extremely rough and unreliable answer) i would estimate that if you lived 2000 years ago and had 2 kids after 20 years who then married and had 2 kids after 20 years etc, then you would be the great (add nausia one last time) grand father of several thousand times as many people as their are on earth atm. So basically pick anyone you like 2000 years ago and its probably pretty likely your related to them, (assuming they actually had kids).
I hope that helped clarify abit, like i said earlier its 2:30 in the morning so i may have just typed a load of rubbish filled with likely spelling and grammar errors
If your asking for a christian point of view on this then the act of sleeping with another person of the same sex is a sin, like any other sin. Being gay would be similar to cheating on your wife in that they are both sins.PersianLlama said:
The bible NEVER teaches that being gay makes you somehow a lesser human, any sin such as being gay or any others makes you a sinner and EVERYONE is a sinner, you, me, the OPer, your neighbour. Jesus came to specifically to save the sinners because he loved us. He loves someone who sleeps with another person of the same gender just as much as he loves me. He hates their sin though, as he also hates any sins that i commit.
Hope that helps answer that, anyway i need sleep!
savandicus said:Got to the bottom of page 6 having read everything and i've got to say there are some really good questions in between the people just flaming and trolling. Might have to read the rest when its not half 2 in the morning. Anyway...
That did help. All I needed was this one line. Read it people and understand why I asked these questions to get this answer.perfectimo said:It states quite specifically in the bible do not murder so as such any killing of another person regardless of the reason is a sin.greygelgoog said:
I hope that helped clarify abit, like i said earlier its 2:30 in the morning so i may have just typed a load of rubbish filled with likely spelling and grammar errors
So then, why do most Christians I know despise gay marriage? Shouldn't it be that person's choice to sin?savandicus said:
There are 2 answers to that question that i can immediately see, 1 is that to have a gay christian marriage would be foolish, a chirstian marriage involves basically going before god and saying i'm going to be with this person forever. For 2 gay people to do that it would be going before God and saying i'm going to sin with this person forever which is certainly something that isnt going to be encouraged.PersianLlama said:
The other answer is that if 2 gay people are trying to get married in a non chirstian setting, i.e they are marrying for the legal benifites then their is no reason to despise such an act anymore than the fact that the marriage would encourage gay sex which is sinful. I'm basing this on the idea that not all gay couples have sex outside of marriage, maybe i'm old fashioned though.
And yes it is a persons choice to sin and Christian's believe that sin results in hell and because we love you guys we dont want that to happen so we try and tell you about it. However some people do lose prepective and the idea that Jesus loved sinners and hated sin and as Christians who look to him as our role model we should also love sinners and hate sin.
I get the feeling i havent answered your question very well here. Feel free to ask again and i can try and clarify abit more.
Edit - I am actually going to sleep now so i'll probably reply some time tomorrow evening if noone else has answered it by then.
Well I understand the Christian marriage thing, that's fine. And it's great that you/Christians care about others, but it's ultimately their choice, and it should be allowed by law.savandicus said:
1 Tim. 4:1: "The inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons."
Acts 20:30: "From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."
2 Pet. 2:1,3: "There will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them...Also, with covetousness will exploit you with counterfeit words."
Jude 8,11: "These men, too, indulging in dreams, are defiling the flesh and disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones. Too bad for them, because they...have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah!"
2 Tim. 2:16-18: "Shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some."
2 John 9,10: "Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God...If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."
Rom. 16:17,18: "I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them...By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones."
Prov. 11:9: "By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin."
Isa. 32:6: "The senseless one himself will speak mere senselessness, and his very heart will work at what is hurtful, to work at apostasy and to speak against Jehovah what is wayward, to cause the soul of the hungry one to go empty, and he causes even the thirsty one to go without drink itself."
Job 13:16: "Before him [ God ] no apostate will come in."
Heb. 6:4-6: "It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away [ "if they commit apostasy," RS ], to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame."
Acts 20:30: "From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."
2 Pet. 2:1,3: "There will also be false teachers among you. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them...Also, with covetousness will exploit you with counterfeit words."
Jude 8,11: "These men, too, indulging in dreams, are defiling the flesh and disregarding lordship and speaking abusively of glorious ones. Too bad for them, because they...have perished in the rebellious talk of Korah!"
2 Tim. 2:16-18: "Shun empty speeches that violate what is holy; for they will advance to more and more ungodliness, and their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some."
2 John 9,10: "Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God...If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him."
Rom. 16:17,18: "I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them...By smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones."
Prov. 11:9: "By his mouth the one who is an apostate brings his fellowman to ruin."
Isa. 32:6: "The senseless one himself will speak mere senselessness, and his very heart will work at what is hurtful, to work at apostasy and to speak against Jehovah what is wayward, to cause the soul of the hungry one to go empty, and he causes even the thirsty one to go without drink itself."
Job 13:16: "Before him [ God ] no apostate will come in."
Heb. 6:4-6: "It is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away [ "if they commit apostasy," RS ], to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame."
But I've only read through MOST of this thread
What color is Jesus's skin? Would he or would he not be Middle-Eastern?
And just what IS God?! I've never been given a direct answer aside from the Most Powerful One. Ever.
Edit: Wait wait wait, I know I sound racist, but I'm trying to make a point. Stay with me here.