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wewontdie11

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savandicus said:
He is unchanging, he will never change his personality or his ways.
This concept has always bothered me. In my admittedly fairly brief foray into religion, I read a good few sections of the bible, and God seemed to change in attitude pretty drastically from Old to New Testament. God seems to go from fairly vengeful and no nonsense in the Old Testament, (e.g. annihilating Sodom and Gomorrah, allowing Satan to torment Jobe, flooding the world etc.) to being (given that Jesus is a form of God incarnate) much more focussed on forgiveness and peace as detailed in Jesus' countless parables. Just doesn't make sense to me.
 

Redlac

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savandicus is right about the End Times being vague. Heck, there are scholars who discuss when exactly we get raptured. Is it before Jesus gets here? After? During? No rapture? Then of course there's the folks who say Revelation is about the Neronian persecutions..

wewontdie, you are not alone in struggling with this concept. Even Christians have thought about it. One answer scholars came up with was Open Theology, which I find interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Theology if you want to read up on it.
 

anNIALLator

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The whole 'God's love' thing is the part I really don't understand. Especially if you add predestination to the mix. God must be one sick freak if he planned out the lives of people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.
Aaaaany who, will someone explain the Job story to me? Something to do with God making a bet with the devil, at the expense of some innocent guy?
 

thedo12

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okay not sure if this has been asked or not but im too lazy to go through and read all the pages of this thread.

1. do you (for a lack of a better word) belive in evolution.

2. if not,then how to respond to the fact that evolution is proven to the point where any scientific thoery can be .

what im basicly saying with number 2 is that if youre going to critizise evolution then you may as well critize the theory of gravity , in that there both proven to the same degree.

3. why do alot of christians have this huge double standard towards evolution , in that for them to belive in god they need aboslutly no evidence. But when it comes to evolution they have unbeliveably high expectations for evidence.
 

TheDean

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DYin01 said:
smallharmlesskitten said:
Can you prove god exists

(not meant to be flame bait, just want to see how a later in life convert sees it)
It's called faith for a reason.
But that's esactly the problem! Faith. believeing something crazy and irrational even thoguh there is absolutely no evidence for it, and tons of evidence against it. I don't even understand anymore.
 

TheDean

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anNIALLator said:
The whole 'God's love' thing is the part I really don't understand. Especially if you add predestination to the mix. God must be one sick freak if he planned out the lives of people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.
Aaaaany who, will someone explain the Job story to me? Something to do with God making a bet with the devil, at the expense of some innocent guy?
niall, niall, niall. You misunderstand the qhoel thing. God is loving and just. He made a deal with the devil to test job's faith. He let tons and tons of really really bad things happen to poor job because he wanted to be loving and benevolent. THen he came in and chastised him for almost giving up faith. you see, it was all for his own good.
 

Redlac

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Ok, a quick summary of Job for you anNIALLator.

First off, Job is a curious mix of Story and Philosophical thinking. It begins with a bit of story, then moves into a discussion, then returns to a story at the end. So then, the story.

Job is a rich guy with a big family, but was also a very godly sort. More godly than most in fact.

One day, all the angels, including Satan come before God and God asks what he's been up to. Satan's reply is a vague, 'Y'know.. stuff.' They then get talking about Job, who God says is pretty cool. But Satan disagrees, saying that he's only so godly because he's having an easy time of it, and if pushed would probably curse God to his face. God disagrees, but says that Satan can go and test Job, but not hurt him.

Satan goes off to do his thing, and Jobs children are killed in various nasty ways and all Jobs wealth (which in those days was livestock)get rather strangely burnt to death by falling fire and stolen by raiding parties.

Job is notably upset and grieves his loss, but concedes that God both gives and takes away as he pleases.

Satan doesn't think this is enough however, so when the angels assemble before God again, God says something along the lines of, 'Well look at that, Job is still faithful to me, even after all that stuff you did.' Satan's reply is that the punishment didn't go far enough, and that this time God should let him attack Job himself, because certainly a nasty illness is enough to get him to curse God to his face. God thinks otherwise and allows Satan to attack Job, but does not allow Satan to kill him. Satan afflicts Job with horrifically painful boils, and Job gets so upset he sits in a pile of ash and sits there scraping the pus from his sores with a piece of old pottery. His wife tells him he's being stupid for sticking to his guns about God, to which he replies that they should take the rough with the smooth.

At this point, the book switches from story to discussion, where Jobs' three friends try to figure out why this happened. They each take a turn to try and justify all this suffering, and their take on it is that Job must have done something wrong, so all this suffering he had brought on his head. Job however, defends his innocence again and again to his friends, as well as directing the question 'why have you done this?' to God.

Eventually, God gives Job his answer, but it's not the answer he expected. In short, God's answer is 'I do it because I can, and who are you to argue with me?'

We then nip back into story mode, where we are told that Job recovered from his boils, created a new family and eventually became twice as rich as he had been before the disaster.

Of course, this being a summary I can't do it justice, so if you want the whole lot here's a link.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job;&version=31;

Essentially, the book of Job asks an age old question that many a human has asked at some point- Why do bad things happen to good people? The book does not exactly give us a nice reply, quite the opposite in fact. So there you have it. Job, as short as I could get it. Hope that helps.
 

jockslap

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savandicus said:
jockslap said:
savandicus said:
while all that is good and fine, you can't simply circumvent the purpose of my post with a wall of text, not only did u not address the point, u pointed out something trivial and figured that would suffice, nice work on the post but im not satisfied, the point was that whether you beleive it or not, think about it, shouldn't the world acknowledge how truly crazy religions that follow the bible are, seeing as your in truth just taking the word of your FELLOW MAN, and creating faith from that. The point was that what most people consider crazy makes just as much sense as what is as far as i can tell the most commonly accepted religion in north america. Does this mean that north americans believe that crazy isnt really crazy if enough people say it isn't it. I mean think about it, u might say evolution is a conspiracy against christianity because you where taught that adam and eve where the first humans and that they where created by god, and it makes a good story but there is however a logistic problem. Who told you that? A book, simply a book, nothing more nothing less. You take this book as word of god when it could just as easily be the work of your so called anti-christ. Personally i think it started out as a collection of stories that where created to teach people lessons and morals. Ideals that would help people live healthy lives, and i can respect that, but i begin to aggrivated with jaded individuals who take these stories (and that is all they are) and pretend they are fact, just so that they may gain a crutch to lean on when there is nothing else, it's a way of avoiding responsibility for your actions and to avoid ownership of your own feelings.
I think you may have understood the point of my wall of text, i answered 3 different posts with my post and the wall of text wasnt related to your post atall which is probably why you felt your question had been answered by something irrelvant. I'll repost with just the answer to your orignal question.

jockslap:
lmao, im not going to try and poke to tons of obvious holes in christianity that others might be quick to exploit but really think about this.

people consider scientology completely insane (in general). Doesnt seem too different from christianity...both written by men...and is some alien dude name like xanthar or something coming to pick u up in his space ship any more crazy than the whole great rapture prophecy-thing from christianity?

First of all let me point out that the whole all chirstians will dissapear when the rapture comes is something that is heavily disputed accross the christian faith. The bible is generally pretty vague about whats going to happen when the end comes, there are many many interpretations of what will happen and i can garrentee that none of them will be 100% correct. I personally dont really care how the end of days play out as either i'll be around or i wont be, if i am around then i carry on trying my best to tell people of Gods love for them and the offer of salvation and if i'm not around then it doesnt matter anyway.

My point to you was that the whole rapture thing is not something that all Christians belive in, i personally believe that if it happens in my lifetime then i will be around of earth and probably end up getting killed by some nice religious persecuters for saying that i believe that Jesus Christ is Lord.
honestly i get your point, and it was a good one to make... it just doesnt seem to have too much to do with my point, my point wasn't the reality of the rapture, it was about the fact that one religion is just as crazy as the next and none seem to make sense to me. Pick any example you want and the point prettymuch still works.
 

Trace2010

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Dele said:
Trace2010 said:
I am interested: what does China's media have to do with this argument anyway?
Sorry, I assumed knowing a guy called Mao Zedong is common knowledge but I guess it was a bit too sophisticated pun.
Yes, I do know who Mao is, though I prefer Bodhidharma myself. Sorry-entered conversation on that point way too late for the pun to be funny. Will try better next time.....
 

Trace2010

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Alex_P said:
Trace2010 said:
Aesthetic arguments do not have a place in science as well? AHA, I have now proven that something exists outside the quantifiable realm of science!! lol..

I guess this is how you and I differ- you, Mr. Tom Masters(whose paper I have read and I believe you are quoting), and all the non-believers believe that human discovery is strangling the existence of God...when I believe He is actually being revealed and mankind is too slow to understand this, because within themselves, they are secretly hoping that God can one day be disproven with finality. But really: How is my God being strangled by our depth in human understanding? I understand that the wind, the rain, the forest, etc. all had their own gods back in the days of polytheism until monotheism came along and debunked them. The ultimate problem with many gods: they were given human qualities and were supposedly in constant struggle with eachother- which did not ultimately reflect the balance of life. The problem with the new god called science is, even if we find an underlying answer to a question, it does not present the ultimate answer- it only adds more questions. I firmly expect when a scientist dies for them to find God- have Him look at them and say "What took you so long?"

Stimulus-Response-Stimulus-Response-Adaptation-Stimulus-New Response-New Stimulus

The wheels on the bus go round and round, but they had to start somewhere- and we had to jump on, fully in rhythm, ready to evolve with the planet, but given a completely different skill set (both in size and in capacity), than the other animals. That takes talent, not trial and error, and not blind luck.

No Alex...God is not in retreat- He has always been there. People are in the state of constant retreat- the same people who subverted the word of God that caused the Inquisition and the Crusades; that caused Reformation; and Counter Reformation; that placed the King of England back in control, and have recently been the source of everyone's "control issues". Me, I am not a scientist, nor a theologian, which is why it is very easy for you to punch holes in my science or in my religious history and doctrine- but not my logic or my reasoning...I am an artist and creator, which makes it much easier for me to understand God who is both.

Oh one more question/observation: Even if Evolution were proven, would it actually refute God anyway? Or is science on the single most slippery sloped fallacy of our time?
I'm not quoting Tom Masters. I don't know who he is. "God of the gaps" and the like are standard terms in the creation/evolution "debate" (it's not much of a debate).

...

Humans aren't the grand exception to evolution. We were not mystically placed on Earth fully- (or mostly-) formed. Our bodies -- brains included -- have much in common with ancient primates. Just, y'know, ask any biologist.

I don't have a background in anthropology, but both the "great leap forward" or theories that posit more gradual social development make sense from the perspective of someone who's studied cognition; neither requires that we assume that some kind of genetic switch was flipped and it suddenly made us smart and creative. Human intelligence isn't just a product of our neural architecture; it's a product of development (the process of reaching biological maturity). The process of learning allows new knowledge to be created and dispersed much faster than genetically-driven instincts can filter through a population. We're not alone in this -- most of the more complex animals are also excellent learners -- but we are the best. Over time we've managed to develop tools that super-charge this process, too: language, abstraction, metacognitive thought.

...

Science isn't "a new god." It's an approach to understanding the world around us. Science doesn't necessarily exclude God. There are just some conceptions of God that fare poorly under scrutiny. Some who study the world find that it affirms their faith; some find their faith wanting. That doesn't mean the tools they use to broaden their knowledge are a new religion in themselves.

Evolutionary biology doesn't aim to "refute God." But there is a particular conception of God -- God the grand iracle worker -- that is largely incompatible with a modern understanding of the world. In order to try to salvage him, creationists and "literalists" have turned him into God the deceiver -- a God that obsessively hides his miracles and weaves lies into every facet of the world. "The universe is only 6000 years old but God placed light from the stars already in transit so that it seems to us to be millions of times older! This was to show us the glory of his creation and test our faith!"

...

Logic founded on shaky facts goes nowhere. Look at Thomas Aquinas for some good examples.

-- Alex
Again, it comes down to Cognition/critical "left brain" vs. Intuition "right brain". If you are telling me that intuition was further developed as an after-effect or byproduct because of cognitive development (or vice-versa), then your argument holds water and requires more study. I will tell you right now, I am not in the "God the Deceiver" camp either...I do not believe that God has placed all of this scientific evidence for us to find just as a "test of faith"- but I do believe that the glory of God is revealed in every man-made discovery...especially in those discoveries that allow us to preserve human life.
 

Alex_P

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Mar 27, 2008
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Trace2010 said:
Again, it comes down to Cognition/critical "left brain" vs. Intuition "right brain". If you are telling me that intuition was further developed as an after-effect or byproduct because of cognitive development (or vice-versa), then your argument holds water and requires more study.
The logic/emotion distinction is pretty much wholly artificial. Nowadays it's considered quite dated.

Psychology, like anthropology, is not my area of expertise, but I do know that cognitivist information-processing models of memory and perception integrate a wide range of processes, including emotional ones.

From an AI perspective, which is closer to my area of expertise, symbolic logic is neither particularly useful nor particularly interesting. The research focus is on connectionist models -- emergent interactions between lots of tiny units of neural structure. There's no inherent distinction between types of simulated "thoughts" in this kind of model.

-- Alex
 

anNIALLator

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Thanks for the reply redlac, but really don't get it. If I was Job, I'd be like, "Fuck you, God!" and he'd be like, "Oh, don't worry, all those horrible things were just part of a game I was playing with my arch nemesis" I'd be pissed off.
 

Trace2010

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Alex_P said:
Trace2010 said:
Again, it comes down to Cognition/critical "left brain" vs. Intuition "right brain". If you are telling me that intuition was further developed as an after-effect or byproduct because of cognitive development (or vice-versa), then your argument holds water and requires more study.
The logic/emotion distinction is pretty much wholly artificial. Nowadays it's considered quite dated.

Psychology, like anthropology, is not my area of expertise, but I do know that cognitivist information-processing models of memory and perception integrate a wide range of processes, including emotional ones.

From an AI perspective, which is closer to my area of expertise, symbolic logic is neither particularly useful nor particularly interesting. The research focus is on connectionist models -- emergent interactions between lots of tiny units of neural structure. There's no inherent distinction between types of simulated "thoughts" in this kind of model.

-- Alex
You lost me there. I don't build machines, just write music. Is the reason for this lack of distinction between types of thoughts comparing the human brain to that of a computer, or is there no distinction because a computer can only do what it is told= it is not alive and cognizant?
 

PedroSteckecilo

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Feb 7, 2008
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Man I can't even comment properly on this thread... I just get too damned worked up. And nobody answered my last question.
 

perfectimo

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greygelgoog said:
perfectimo said:
Can one of the more devout christians answer these?
Thank you for implying that Anglicans and Episcopalians are not devout. Not all of us want to be in the John Nelson Darby fanclub.
Sorry to offend but I meant someone who is like a preacher or someone who goes to church every week or the OP again.
 

Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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TheDean said:
anNIALLator said:
The whole 'God's love' thing is the part I really don't understand. Especially if you add predestination to the mix. God must be one sick freak if he planned out the lives of people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.
Aaaaany who, will someone explain the Job story to me? Something to do with God making a bet with the devil, at the expense of some innocent guy?
niall, niall, niall. You misunderstand the qhoel thing. God is loving and just. He made a deal with the devil to test job's faith. He let tons and tons of really really bad things happen to poor job because he wanted to be loving and benevolent. THen he came in and chastised him for almost giving up faith. you see, it was all for his own good.
What? Have you even READ Job? God didn't come in and chastise Job. And on top of that, God gave back to Job what he had 'lost' and then some. And he wasn't 'testing' Job's faith, he was proving it. Job never once blamed God for his ordeal, which satan said he would.
 

Baby Tea

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Sep 18, 2008
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perfectimo said:
I have some follow up questions now, I think you may see what I'm doing.

If I wanted to stop some bad people from things considered wrong by the Bible and kill them as a solution to this problem would that be a sin?

Is judging people a sin?

So do you believe we descended from Adam and Eve directly?
You said you wanted someone who goes to church every Sunday to answer these, so let's get cracking!

1) Yes, killing them would be wrong (A sin). Using sin to combat sin doesn't dismiss the fact that it is, in fact, a sin.

2) Christ said not to judge, or so shall you be judged in the same way. Speaking in a more modern context, we all judge. I can judge a person to be a jerk if they are always rude to people, I can judge a person to be a happy person if I always see them smiling and laughing, etc. The judgment Christ is referring to is a condemnation type of judgment.

It's time to use a little friend call 'hermeneutics'.
The religious leaders of the day would condemn people to hell, or say what bad Jews they were (Breaking the laws of Judaism). The problem is that they themselves were breaking the law. Here comes the hermeneutics part: What that means for us today, is that Christians aren't to be walking around condemning people to hell, and railing on people for being 'sinful'. The only one who can say who is going to heaven or hell, is God. Not some pastor or priest, not some organization. God. And we're ALL sinful, Christian or not. That's where the need for Christ comes in for everyone.

3) No, I don't. The Scriptures say that Cain went off after killing able and married a woman in the land of Ur. Where did that woman come from? Some might say that it was a daughter of Adam and Eve. Others, like myself, say that God created other people but that Adam and Eve were the first. But I also offer this conjecture: It doesn't really matter. As a Christian, is it important for me to believe that we all came form Adam and Eve? Or that Christ is the son of God, who died for the salvation of our sins? Yeah, the latter.

There are certainly a few 'staple beliefs' of the Christian faith that all Christians should believe, but whether or not we all came form Adam and Eve isn't one of them.
 

xxcloud417xx

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I'm a firm believer that having faith in your religion is important, and being spiritual is also good. But religious organisations such as the Roman Cathiolic Church are a plague upon the world, if history has tought us anything about the Church, its that they have abused their power too many times for it to be acceptable, yet some people are so brainwashed that if you disobey the Church your relinquishing your faith, that they won't fight for their own human rights... Don't you see something wrong with that??
 

TheDean

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Baby Tea said:
TheDean said:
anNIALLator said:
The whole 'God's love' thing is the part I really don't understand. Especially if you add predestination to the mix. God must be one sick freak if he planned out the lives of people like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot etc.
Aaaaany who, will someone explain the Job story to me? Something to do with God making a bet with the devil, at the expense of some innocent guy?
niall, niall, niall. You misunderstand the qhoel thing. God is loving and just. He made a deal with the devil to test job's faith. He let tons and tons of really really bad things happen to poor job because he wanted to be loving and benevolent. THen he came in and chastised him for almost giving up faith. you see, it was all for his own good.
What? Have you even READ Job? God didn't come in and chastise Job. And on top of that, God gave back to Job what he had 'lost' and then some. And he wasn't 'testing' Job's faith, he was proving it. Job never once blamed God for his ordeal, which satan said he would.

job didn't blame god because this is supposed to be a loving perosnla god. You never expect the perosn who is being a jerk to you to be oyur closest friend betraying you do you? God is a jerk. ok, so he gave back more than he had before--what, so that makes it all worth it des it? And why was god making a deal with the devil anyway? Ifgod is so smart, he wouldn't have needed to prove that job was faithful to him. It's like the only thing in religion ever that actually required any proof. And i'm sure Job secretly blamed god, why would his friend let this happen to him? BAD FRIEND.