Ask a Christian Theologian

[Baby Tea]

Then, what is the opposition? Because god says so? Granted, that is a reason, but a pretty crummy one I think. -_-

Anyway...to clarify, needs of the many, not needs of the few. (Although a careful balance must be observed in order to avoid the tyranny of the masses.) I'm sorry...but, I can only think of religion in this instance as a moral code, but only on a non-divine aspect.

But the point is: I don't consider it any more than that.
It is a moral code, from where the basics of Western morality (there are older examples of course especially in regards to law) come from. But, I am wholly of the mind that it is a -human- creation. What I'm failing to understand, is how having a supposedly divine hand in it's extolment, is the only thing that makes it legitimate. As above, if the reason is thus: God spake it.

I don't think it impossible that humans cannot come up with a moral system on their own, nor that if assuming that such a code as espoused by Christianity etc. could not be adapted by others, in this case a purely non-theistic group of people.


On criminality: I don't disagree, there are a -lot- of people who do evil things despite the law, just as there are a lot of people who do evil things despite the Bible, but the only thing I can recall to that effect, is that a Christian who breaks any of those laws wasn't really a Christian at all, thus his fellows wipe their hands of the matter.

Why is murder wrong: It is wrong because, with little exception, we as a society have decided this is so.

See, again, you offer that morality isn't theist based, but offer no reasons WHY.
And you say 'God saying so' is a crummy reason, but 'society says so' is a good one?

You might say 'what gives God the right to choose'?

Well I say, what gives society the right to choose? If society is the absolute and everyone agrees, then there shouldn't be this much crime.

You keep using words like 'right and wrong' but such expressions are meaningless in the non-theist worldview. Humans can certainly come up with a moral framework, people do it every day for themselves. But there is no BASIS for it. I'll say it again: You are trying to instill a sense of right and wrong without giving reasons WHY. And when that question is finally asked, and you stand there without defense, THAT is when the 'ideals' and 'laws' of society become moot, and it becomes do what is right for ME, and not do what is right. Because there is no right for the non-theist, except that which right for the individual

And I kind of chuckled when you wrote 'needs of the masses over the needs of the few'. Funny that poverty and terrible sickness are rampant through even the most 'developed' countries, and the point is this: It's the needs of the individual, the needs of the now that dominate the mindset of the individual in this postmodern society that tells us that right and wrong change from person to person and no-one can tell you different.

Christianity gives cause for morality, and reason for evil. But without God, morality and evil both cease to exist, and you're left with an unforgiving, amoral universe that is what it is and you cannot make sense of the 'why' when things happen, you cannot reason with these things. According to the naturalist: They happen, get used to it.

 

[Alex_P]

Christianity gives cause for morality, and reason for evil. But without God, morality and evil both cease to exist, and you're left with an unforgiving, amoral universe that is what it is and you cannot make sense of the 'why' when things happen, you cannot reason with these things. According to the naturalist: They happen, get used to it.

But if the universe really is unforgiving and amoral, inventing God isn't going to change that.

"We say this is moral because it's convenient."
"We say this is moral because God says so. We say God says so because it's convenient."

Ultimately, you've gained nothing. Except now every time society takes a hard look at its values, it has to work past this extra level of indirection -- and "because God says so" is a pretty powerful roadblock -- to do it. That can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on whether you think a particular change is for the better or for the worse.

"God says so" doesn't mean anything unless God is, y'know, really truly there. It's just a convenient lie that hides the "because it's convenient." But even if God is really truly there we face the tremendous difficulty of figuring out what God is really saying -- which, at the moment, I have never seen a religion pull off without resorting to "because it's convenient" anyway.

-- Alex

 

[GothmogII]

But without God, morality and evil both cease to exist, and you're left with an unforgiving, amoral universe that is what it is and you cannot make sense of the 'why' when things happen, you cannot reason with these things. According to the naturalist: They happen, get used to it.

Just so. But. That doesn't mean we can't be nice about it no?

Fine. The why.












..........................I don't know. That's just the way it is. Or -should- be. I don't know why. It's that way because of I think, yes, a bunch of arbitrary words and ideas. That is...by far, a more comfortable thing, for me at least to uphold.

I don't really know what else to say. You know, if someone walked up to me and asked me if killing was wrong, I'd say yes. Not because I believe in any kind of religious experience, even though I realise that's where it originated (again, -human- proposed religious ideology) and passed down, again and again and again, to my grandparents, then to my parents and then to me. So even as above, that as far as I understand, I know where my, and others morals may have originated, I still cannot force myself to believe in spurious ideas like god, and that is all it is, and idea. Some ideas are powerful though, sometimes the wrong ones, and in this case I understand this to be so.

But, who knows? I could be wrong. In that case, if I should meet him then, I'll say I'm sorry and be perfectly okay with whatever torments await, because to the end I'll have upheld my own ideals, even if it's a bad idea. *shrug* I'd actually more prefer to the put in front of Cthulhu when I die, eternal insanity sounds far more engaging.

 

[GothmogII]

I do have a question though (finally), for any theologians about:

If we understand that god only wants believers, what does he think of those who force themselves to believe?

Then again...how exactly does one do that? Can it be done? When instinct tells you that no, that rock did not just talk to you, how can you force yourself to take it's advice?

 

[protogenxl]

I do need some advice from you regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9) The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?


b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?


f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

 

[GothmogII]

snip

While I realise you were trying to be witty and all that...it's already been done several times in this thread, good try though. Can't say it's conductive to discussion however.

As a serious answer though, I believe a Christian would tell you that they follow barely any of those, bar the view of Homosexuality, which is odd to say the least. Slaves? Big nono, shellfish? Yum! Working on a sunday? Generally not, but you know, some people need the money.
And yet oddly enough homosexuals must be denied the right to marry and generally treated as monsters. Yay -_-. (No, not all Christians are like that, just the loud ones.)

 

[Baby Tea]

But if the universe really is unforgiving and amoral, inventing God isn't going to change that.

"We say this is moral because it's convenient."

...

But even if God is really truly there we face the tremendous difficulty of figuring out what God is really saying -- which, at the moment, I have never seen a religion pull off without resorting to "because it's convenient" anyway.

-- Alex

But is something truly moral if it's only moral because it's 'convenient'?

And finally, now we're getting down to brass tacks. If God is real, how do we know what he's saying? As a Christian, I would say the Bible is the word of God.
Why the Bible?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs

Ravi Zacharias can defend this position with far more gusto then I ever could.

 

[ModDom]

Ah, finally a thread without complete idiots generating abusive and stupid comments towards Christians. It's nice to have an intelligent discussion once in a while, isn't it?
Though I'm not the most experienced in theology, I have been studying it for several years and intend to take it in university and Sixth Form.
I'm an English Roman Catholic, and have recieved my fair amount of insults from athiests (who usually spawn a completely ridiculous argument against Christianity the likes of which you could laugh at). Some of these were from America, and I realise that there were some Catholic priests in America who comitted peadophilia. However, I do not see reason in tarring every Catholic with the same brush and declaring my faith wrong simply because the acts of a few priests.
I would like to say that us Catholics do not abhor homosexuals, just any sexual acts comitted in that nature.
I am not trying to force my beliefs upon anyone, I merely enjoy sharing my views with others.
After all, it's hard to find a place you can talk about faith without being flamed.

 

[Bronzebow]

While I realise you were trying to be witty and all that...it's already been done several times in this thread, good try though. Can't say it's conductive to discussion however.

As a serious answer though, I believe a Christian would tell you that they follow barely any of those, bar the view of Homosexuality, which is odd to say the least. Slaves? Big nono, shellfish? Yum! Working on a sunday? Generally not, but you know, some people need the money.
And yet oddly enough homosexuals must be denied the right to marry and generally treated as monsters. Yay -_-. (No, not all Christians are like that, just the loud ones.)

None of those are to be followed, even amongst the Jewish as far as I know. (I'm not well versed in modern day Jewish faith, so someone there would have to answer). The rules spelled out in those books were for a very specific set of people under a very specific circumstance for a very specific time frame, not to mention the fact that the old testament is included in the Christian bible only to lead you as a historical account into the new testament.

People who use such arguments about Leviticus honestly don't understand Christianity. And that's not necessarily a bad thing in a thread like this where the OP's goal was to be a bouncing board of questions to begin with. I just wish people didn't hit the floor running with the aggressive tone like Proto above does. I wonder if the OP was driven away for that same reason.

And to you, Goth, I want to give my sincere thanks. You went out of your way to specifically state you don't think all Christians hold homosexuals as abominations. It saddens me that not only does the Phelps "church" exist, but the actions of those twelve people are so often used to paint me. Thank you.

 

[Baby Tea]

Snip

You're asking these silly, albeit kind of funny, questions only shows that you don't know much about the Christian faith.

Why do I say this?

Because Christians don't live according to Old Testament Law (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Exodus, etc). We live according to the teachings of Christ in the New Testament. The Old Testament serves as a history of God's people, and to show the messianic prophecies that Christ fulfilled.

Nice try, though!

You might direct those questions to someone of the Jewish faith and see what answers you get.

 

[Milford Cubicle]

Baby Tea:

I am assuming that you are of the Christian persuasion? Could you please put my mind to rest and attempt to answer my post from farther up pager 19:-

So what you're saying is every single Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Atheist is going to hell? Regardless of how good or bad they are?

What about babies who die before they understand the concept of Jebus? Or every single person who lived and died before Christianity?

 

[GothmogII]

not this argument again! wait untill somebody points out that the bible is fake and was invented as a way to govern stupid people, maximillion will really get stuck into you then.

Actually, the topic has been going rather well so far, no need for any of that now.

 

[Alone Disciple]

Baby Tea:

I am assuming that you are of the Christian persuasion? Could you please put my mind to rest and attempt to answer my post from farther up pager 19:-

So what you're saying is every single Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh and Atheist is going to hell? Regardless of how good or bad they are?

What about babies who die before they understand the concept of Jebus? Or every single person who lived and died before Christianity?

Milford,

I will attempt to answer the second & 3rd parts of your question based on my beliefs, as I can't speak for Baby Tea.

Part 2: Inherently, since we are all unique individuals with different growth paths of maturity and development, many Christians (and those of other faiths) believe in a concept known as the 'age of accountability'. This concept isn't per-se a 'Christian' concept, it is simply defined to mean: "The age at which a child is mentally old enough/mature to understand the moral consequences of his or her actions and can be accountable for their sins." Some also call this the 'age of reason'.

It is not age specific, as we all mature at different rates and certainly develop with input from our cultures, environment, parental and societal involvements.

While I don't want to say with 100% conviction this is factual, we can assume sooner or later a person 'senses' what is the difference between right and wrong. 'Some' people, (not all) would argue that once one becomes aware of the internalized mental or emotional strains of guilt and desire to make reparations or not they have achieved 'accountability'.

To get back to your question, I personally do not believe those that are considered immature children, infants, mentally deficient are eternally condemned as they have not been given the mental capacity/development to accept/reject Christ while alive.

Part 3: Many** Nnot all) Christians believe that between the time that Christ died (mortally) and was resurected on the 3rd day, He preached His word to those that had died before His incarnation on earth.

1 Peter 3:18-20; 4:6 states "He (Jesus) was put to death in the flesh, but he was raised to life in the Spirit, in which also he went and preached to the disobedient spirits who were in prison in the days of Noah when God waited patiently while the ark was being built...For this is why the gospel was preached even to the dead so that, although they have already been judged in the flesh like men, they might have life in the Spirit like God."

This 'prison' is known as Hades, not Hell. Hell is the 'final' place, these souls/sprits were not in hell. The souls of those people prior to Christ were thus given a second-chance, if you will, for redemption and the the abilty to accept or reject Christ.

Many Christians beleive that many did indeed chose to accept Christ's message and followed him to 'paradise', while others still rejected him and thus remained in Hades. During final judgement those in paradise will find them in a completed 'heaven', while those that rejected him will find themselves in hell.

**However, even top theologians debate this topic. Here is a good link (bring a cup of coffee) that offers various biblically supported scenarios: http://www.ldolphin.org/descend.html

As part one of your question is concerened..that's dangerous even for Christians to truly answer. We are asked not judge anyone. Personally I place my trust in God the Father to look into each mans individual heart and make the final call. That is His right to decide, not mine.

 

[Alex_P]

But is something truly moral if it's only moral because it's 'convenient'?

For the purpose of the example I'm taking it for granted that your only choices are "God said so" and "there is no truth," even though I don't entirely agree. The point is that positing that God exists just to avoid the question doesn't actually help us avoid the question.

And finally, now we're getting down to brass tacks. If God is real, how do we know what he's saying? As a Christian, I would say the Bible is the word of God.
Why the Bible?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHRP0I2SrVs

Ravi Zacharias can defend this position with far more gusto then I ever could.

Well, from the parts of the Bible I've encountered -- and there are definitely a few books in there that I haven't read -- I'm just not convinced.

For example, despite his name-parade of scholars, Zacharias doesn't even mention the fact that many of them(*) place the Book of Daniel much later than the sixth century BC. And if Daniel really is so transparently and accurately prophetic, then who the fuck is Darius the Mede? There seems to be very little agreement on that point. (Nevermind the fringier Christians who claim Daniel is actually another part of their big ol' second-coming end-times prophecy puzzle!)

-- Alex
__________
* - Most of them, if I recall correctly. I'm not an expert on academic analyses of Daniel, however, so I could be wrong on that point.

 

[CIA]

I do need some advice from you regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

If you're gonna use someone's stuff you really should quote her.

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j)...as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread...

If you're getting this from Jed Bartlet then you should probably cite.

 

[Arcadia2000]

I'm not a theologist. I'm just a simple Christian woman. Being a Christian means being a follower of Christ. Christ treated all people with kindness, no matter who they were or what they had done. He would sit at the tables of some of the most abhorred men like they were his next-door neighbors. He was perfect, and had a destiny that was fully revealed to him. I will never be perfect in this life, and I do not have my destiny laid plain before my eyes.

Christ told us in Luke 6:37-42 about the dangers of judging others and hypocracy. That doesn't mean I never do it, because of the above acknowledgement of imperfection, but I understand that to usurp God's right to judge will bring me only misery in the end. I do not know the future or have unlimited knowledge of the present and past, or have the ability to see into others' hearts and minds. I do not have the right to judge them. Because I believe that only God has that power, I believe that only God has that right.

Do I know exactly what happens after someone dies? Not even the angels have the full knowledge of God's plans (Mark 13:32). I can't know what exactly is going to happen to someone after they die; I can't know their destinations. People that have knowledge of Christianity and reject it are the ones that I grieve for; my religion has clearly laid out what happens to them. But even then, I can't be sure that that's exactly what's going to happen. I just don't know, and I never will be certain.

Being a follower of Christ is about following his example. Would Jesus scream "You're going to hell!" to a homosexual and spraypaint ******! on their garage door? Certainly not. Would he stand a soldier's funeral carrying a sign saying the dead soldier is going to hell? Never.

Matthew 22:34-40 and Mark 12:28-34 tell of the greatest commandment. It was the first of ten handed down from God to Moses. It is restated by Christ though in such a way as to define it precisely. To say that "you shall have no other gods but ME" is a good start and then to say "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength" really lays it out. If you are doing the latter, there is no more room to have something else come before God. The second Jesus gave after it: "Love thy neighbor as thyself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." In Mark, the person whom Jesus is speaking to replies as he realizes that doing these two things are "more important that all burnt offerings and sacrifices." And Jesus gives him the figurative "thumbs-up," that's he's got it right. And if you do these two things, you have done it right. You aren't perfect and you will stumble and fall, but in the end you know the reward will be great.

After Jesus rose from the dead he gave us the Great Commission (as found in Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20, and Acts 1): "go into all the world and preach the Good News to all creation." I have a God-given directive to tell you of the Good News: Jesus Christ rose from the dead and those that believe in Him will be saved. That's all. My job is done. If you choose to believe, then my heart rejoices for you. If you choose not to believe, there is nothing I can do about that, and my heart grieves for you. But even if you don't believe, I'll still play with you, go to movies with you, and have dinner with you. Just don't expect me to behave any differently around you. I'll still pray before I eat. I'm not going to make a big deal about it, but if my eyes close and my head drops a bit, you can assume I'm not (just) inhaling the aroma of my steak.

I'm sorry that there are Christians out there that give Christians like me a bad name. But sometimes others forget that Christians are people too. We have bad days. We have addictions, sometimes. We get road rage. The difference is that we feel badly for having behaved in such a way and try to do better because we believe there's a reason to BE better. Sometimes we even need a swift kick in the pants to see that we've been wrong. We're people just like you.

The best part about being a Christian is that it costs me virtually nothing. There's a psychologial or theologial principle whose name escapes me, but the point of it is, what does it cost me in the long run to believe? I behave in a way that is prosocietal and as a reward I get everlasting happiness. If there IS no god and I behave in a way that is prosocietal and am happy because I have been a good person, am guilt free, and am content and there IS no afterlife in heaven, what did it cost me? I died happy. I had a good life, living for something I believed in that made me a better person. What do people really want out of life? Generally, it's happiness. And some say that money, drugs, or sex will get you that. Money can make living easy, but it doesn't make you happy. Drugs and sex can feel good, but the happiness doesn't last. To be happy, you have to LIVE. You have to work at living. Believing in God makes me happy. It makes me want to live, to better myself. Some people say they don't need God to do that, and maybe they don't. But I believe that everyone needs God for one reason or another. But I'm only me, I don't know what your reason would be. But even if the only reason you needed God now was to have a perfect afterlife later, isn't that reason enough?

Christians believe that the reason why we need God is that sin or doing wrong stains our eternal soul. It makes us unworthy of being in the presence of perfection aka God. Before the coming of Jesus, the Jewish people believed that blood sacrifice was the only way to make that sin go away. Jesus came, died, and rose from the dead so that we would never have to kill goats, calves, and doves ever again to be perfect before God because he gave the ultimate sacrifice for us. Belief that Christ DID THAT is what makes us clean and worthy of God's presence and grace. If you ask me, havering on about whether dudes are doing dudes and chicks are doing chicks is a mite insignificant after that.

You know, there's even a 3-step program to becoming a Christian. It's pretty streamlined. First, you have to admit that you do bad things of your own free will. Pretty easy. This next one is harder. You have to believe that Christ came, died, and rose from the dead. Considering that this goes against everything we believe about the natural world, I understand why some people have trouble with that. The last part brings the first two together. If you can get to step two, then step three is a little easier. All you do is say, I do bad things and I'm sorry. I want a place in heaven. Will you save my eternal soul and in return I will let you run things down here for me? Considering that God is perfect, it's got to be pretty handy having someone that knows the itenerary running the show. Really, the hardest part about becomming a Christian is getting over step two. That's called faith, now. The thing is, it didn't have to be taken on faith two thousand years ago. There were witnesses. Hundreds of people. (1 Corinthians 15, Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20, Acts 1)

Christianity is a choice. For some people it's easy, for some people it's impossible. And it's got its hangups like every other religion in the world. An imperfect man has been meddling in the perfect plan of God and having arguments about what belongs in the manual and what doesn't. But Christianity really isn't about that stuff. Christ asked it of people two thousand years ago and he asks it of us now: Follow me. He taught me everything I needed to know. One, believe - not hard, Jews have been doing it for a few millenia. And two, behave - theoretically not hard, there's only two rules anymore.

I know this opens me up to a whole lot of scorn. But I'm not doing this because I expect or even want a reply, positive or negative, of any kind. People ask all kinds of silly questions about Christianity that don't even really matter. What matters is what's above. And a whole lot of these silly questions would be answered if some people would pick up the manual and READ it. I don't know if they're afraid they'll burst into flames or it'll plant some horrible idea in their minds that they have to be nice. Even I haven't read the entire bible fron beginning to end (yet) but I'm getting there. Let me answer a quick few with my paltry knowledge. YES God killed everyone but Noah and his family. Why? Because in Genesis 6:12 it says "God saw how corrupt the world had become, for ALL the people on earth had corrupted their ways." He wasn't killing innocents. Everyone was guilty. Did God kill everyone from Sodom and Gomorrah? YES, and why? Because in Genesis 18, starting at verse 16, Abraham pleaded with God to spare them if he could find even ten righteous people there. God sent two angels and they found Lot and his family (a wife and two daughters). Four people were led away, and three were saved, because Lot's wife turned back to watch the destruction and "became a pillar of salt," aka died. All you had to do was read the very first part of the bible.

A few more important things get set out in the second half of Exodus and most of Leviticus. The old laws. Alright. Really. How many laws are there in all the United States? Moses just hauled thousands of people out of slavery and now they are free. They needed a government. They needed rules and laws. God set out the basic ten laws, and then proceeds into the details. We have something like that called the Constitution and Bill of Rights and Ammendments. Except our Constitution has a little more in it than the Ten Commandments do. God wasn't laying down the details for people several thousand years later. Moses might have been raised as the son of a Pharoah, but that doesn't mean he knew squat about being one. They needed a leader and some guidlines right away. God made a bunch of disposessed slaves into a nation. Nations need laws. When Christ came later, he reaffirmed the first law, and then said, really, you don't need the rest so long as you do this other one, because all the rest come from it. Because he knew with his death and resurrection, that a lot of the rest would be unnecessary.

Before everyone keeps running with silly questions, pick up a "Quest Study Bible" and read it. It answers common and sensible questions in the margins. The NIV (new international version) is a decent translation and it's the version for the Quest Study Bible, and HCSB (Holman Christian Standard Bible) is good, too. KJV (King James version) makes my head hurt and beginners should steer clear. Start in Genesis and get through Exodus. Then skip a bit and either pick it back up in Joshua (and read Numbers if you have to, it's a bit of a jump) or go from there to the New Testament and read on until the end, even Revelations. Leave Psalms for the very last, it's long.

I'm sorry I've havered on, I don't think I've ever created a wall of text quite this bad before, but I tend to post like this when I have something to say. These threads suffer from the worst kind of ignorance. Please read up on something you don't understand. You don't have to say anything back whether you like it or think the worst kind of drivel is seeping out of my brain. Just think on it. Thanks.

 

[NeoAC]

I met God on a website and he asked me for my credit card number so he could order me pizza. Then I asked him if the world was going to end, and he didn't give me an answer. What does that mean?