Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism
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moloch you need to understand the purpose of religion, it is to be a moral 'path'. it is supposed to teach you 'right' from 'wrong'. science lacks morals so in reguards to your post its not a 1 v 1 relationship. in fact its apples and oranges. i dont expect my science to teach me morals. science knows neither 'right' OR 'wrong' in a moral sence, it mainly deals with establishing what IS and WHY it works (or doesnt) not what to do WITH that work.
i (of corse) dont think its much of an argument to say that religion is mostly bad and cite examples of war, the biggest war in Human history was started by people with most definite anti-God views, science WAS the religion of both Nazi Germany AND the USSR, pick a random 2 or 3 day battle in WWII and more people were killed in the name of 'science' than in all the 'religious wars' in human history combined. thats really a point i feel compelled to make.
as for the rest. most are moral stances. abortion, gays, that kind of thing, those are open to a persons natural inclination basicaly people believe what they CHOOSE to believe and look for justification afterwords, being a Christian i can say with some truth that i can find a bible quote to support pretty much any moral stance i chose to make. yes even killing. the PROBLEM with most religion is when you decide that its your God given mission to go out and convert people by the 'sword'. and mind you this isnt just a probem with 'religion' this is a HUMAN problem. reading the few pages here you can see the 'science' people with 'swords' raised charging into the "im right, your a moron who should just die" fire.
way down in your heart of hearts most people dont think they KNOW that THEIR view on the world is the 'right' one, its obvious to me that because God has been with us since before the begining that people who belive in God would have a much longer history of using those beliefs to try and impose their human will on their fellow man, science hasent had as long to catch up in that reguard yet but its making up ground fast. example, more people have died in communist countrys in the last 100ish years be it by wars, or purges, or just because the 'new society' needed them to die than pretty much every other war or society in human history. more people have been killed in the last 100 years in the name of there being NO God than the worst religious nut has killed in the wildest dreams in all of human history.
i only point this stuff out not too 'defend' religion or even to slander science, i point it out because the human equasion gets left out in talks like these. religion isnt any worse than science is as a system of beliefs. its the people that make up those systems that are importiant. people are allways looking for 'something more' its a sad fact of the human condition that when they find it they are usualy ready to run out into the world and announce that they have "THEE ANSWER" and you must follow/agree with them otherwise your at best a 'moron' and at its worst they feel they MUST kill you.
im comfortable in the fact that my faith cant be hurt by others opinions, some (dare i say most) people dont feel that way. ive no need to defend MYSELF or what i believe. i believe in God, if im right than its up to GOD to deal with other people not me. if God wants your faith in Him He will have it via one means or another and im pretty sure none of the vast possable choices God can make to get your faith in Him involves me killing anyone who refuses that faith. people arent content to let God BE God. they dont want God in charge because God might decide that THEY are morons who need to be punished so they charge off half cocked on some wild crusade hoping if they scream loud enough then God will reward them for their actions in "his name" and ignore the actions themselves.
its too bad that human nature doesnt as a rule allow for that to be true for all people. tolerance isnt a strong point for people in general but for me atleast there is no difference between a crazy talking about killing me in the name of God or a crazy inventing nuclear weapons and USING them. the bottom line is you dont see God in either situation, you see human nature. the drive all people feel , some more than others to impose YOUR will on those around you. all of the human problems stem from this drive and its isnt to be laid at the feet of religion or science either one. people the world over do 'bad' and 'good' every day some blame different things for their actions, (a super bowl winner thanking God, or a nobel prize winner thanking their fellow scientists) but free will is allways afoot in human events so be wary of and question with a sharp eye to detail anyones motivation. too often religion is used as an excuse for people to do just as the damn well please to their fellow man and claim that God told them to do it. allways question motivations, and dont just assume that a lable (religion, science, etc) will give you valid answers.
i (of corse) dont think its much of an argument to say that religion is mostly bad and cite examples of war, the biggest war in Human history was started by people with most definite anti-God views, science WAS the religion of both Nazi Germany AND the USSR, pick a random 2 or 3 day battle in WWII and more people were killed in the name of 'science' than in all the 'religious wars' in human history combined. thats really a point i feel compelled to make.
as for the rest. most are moral stances. abortion, gays, that kind of thing, those are open to a persons natural inclination basicaly people believe what they CHOOSE to believe and look for justification afterwords, being a Christian i can say with some truth that i can find a bible quote to support pretty much any moral stance i chose to make. yes even killing. the PROBLEM with most religion is when you decide that its your God given mission to go out and convert people by the 'sword'. and mind you this isnt just a probem with 'religion' this is a HUMAN problem. reading the few pages here you can see the 'science' people with 'swords' raised charging into the "im right, your a moron who should just die" fire.
way down in your heart of hearts most people dont think they KNOW that THEIR view on the world is the 'right' one, its obvious to me that because God has been with us since before the begining that people who belive in God would have a much longer history of using those beliefs to try and impose their human will on their fellow man, science hasent had as long to catch up in that reguard yet but its making up ground fast. example, more people have died in communist countrys in the last 100ish years be it by wars, or purges, or just because the 'new society' needed them to die than pretty much every other war or society in human history. more people have been killed in the last 100 years in the name of there being NO God than the worst religious nut has killed in the wildest dreams in all of human history.
i only point this stuff out not too 'defend' religion or even to slander science, i point it out because the human equasion gets left out in talks like these. religion isnt any worse than science is as a system of beliefs. its the people that make up those systems that are importiant. people are allways looking for 'something more' its a sad fact of the human condition that when they find it they are usualy ready to run out into the world and announce that they have "THEE ANSWER" and you must follow/agree with them otherwise your at best a 'moron' and at its worst they feel they MUST kill you.
im comfortable in the fact that my faith cant be hurt by others opinions, some (dare i say most) people dont feel that way. ive no need to defend MYSELF or what i believe. i believe in God, if im right than its up to GOD to deal with other people not me. if God wants your faith in Him He will have it via one means or another and im pretty sure none of the vast possable choices God can make to get your faith in Him involves me killing anyone who refuses that faith. people arent content to let God BE God. they dont want God in charge because God might decide that THEY are morons who need to be punished so they charge off half cocked on some wild crusade hoping if they scream loud enough then God will reward them for their actions in "his name" and ignore the actions themselves.
its too bad that human nature doesnt as a rule allow for that to be true for all people. tolerance isnt a strong point for people in general but for me atleast there is no difference between a crazy talking about killing me in the name of God or a crazy inventing nuclear weapons and USING them. the bottom line is you dont see God in either situation, you see human nature. the drive all people feel , some more than others to impose YOUR will on those around you. all of the human problems stem from this drive and its isnt to be laid at the feet of religion or science either one. people the world over do 'bad' and 'good' every day some blame different things for their actions, (a super bowl winner thanking God, or a nobel prize winner thanking their fellow scientists) but free will is allways afoot in human events so be wary of and question with a sharp eye to detail anyones motivation. too often religion is used as an excuse for people to do just as the damn well please to their fellow man and claim that God told them to do it. allways question motivations, and dont just assume that a lable (religion, science, etc) will give you valid answers.
Being that I'm not one to argue, but rather raise different view points, and see as how you are directly speaking to me, I will respond.oddresin post=18.73419.797213 said:
What am I scared of? The possibility of hell. Now, let's just for the sake of the argument, say that heaven and hell do exist, and that my actions in this world will affect the outcome of where I will end up.
Now, Sloth is one of the Seven Deadly. Sloth this day and age is considered to be slow, lazy, whereas the original meaning was of the unappreciation of gods creation, and this life that he has given you.
Suicide would fall under this category. I took my life because I was not appreciative of this gift of life that God had bestowed upon me. Now Atheists, would have no ultimate fear of meeting the end because it would be the end of their suffering, however, someone who believed that if they were to end their suffereing, they would only bring upon themselves a eternal suffering in which they have never experienced. So basically, it's either live 70+ plus of complete bullshit in which you experience no happiness, but in the end never had gone awry of the "Path", or take your own life in an attempt to end all of the pain, but forever be condemned to a hell that is completely unimaginable. If the very thought of hell, and holy retribution hasn't saved many a stressed soul through-out the years from stealing from their loved one's themselves, and you still have a problem with religious dogma, then you are a bad person.
The current champion of the last MAYBE 100 years? I don't mean to argue for religion in that statement, just acknowledge that I don't believe you should just brush aside the idea that has existed since the beginnings of man just because all of a sudden we have a better understanding of how somethings should work. Argument's leaning toward "science" as a better explanation of things could be used to say that the "Third Eye" that eastern relgions speak of as only being closed. The more we reach into the logic, the more we stop seeing the illogical, the more we lose the ability to believe. Also, I like the part where you said,"it explains it in the best way any human can" and I think that's the real point of this reply.Moloch-De post=18.73419.798190 said:
As a funny sidenote, anyone see that episode of South Park in which Cartman put himself into a cryogenic freeze and woke up 500 years in the future, only to find that all civilizations had become Atheist, but still fought over whether or not their "Answer" was right. The question to that answer being, "What should we call ourselves?"
It is also the dogma which means people in utter agony are unable to end their suffering, because religious people tend to abhor euthunasia for pretty much this reason. If religion works for you, then I guess that fine, as long as the extremes don't inform how you act. If you want to do clear good by, for example giving for charity, and the reason for that is you think you'll go to heaven if you do, then fair play to you. The issue it when people use religion to support prejudice, as has happened throughout history, and is happening right now with the oppression of homosexuals. Thats when atheists like myself need to stand up and be counted.PaintedDeath post=18.73419.799872 said:
I don't think it's too hard to get along with christians- I'm marrying one- but it's about mutual respect, and about both of you being able to say that while I feel that I am right, the other has a belief system that works for them, makes them happy, and defines who they are. Why would I want to take that away?
Huh, I thought that was called Ethics? Wikipedia..yes I -know-, just for ease of demonstraition:Wyatt post=18.73419.799737 said:
And the dictionary definition:
Although in consideration, maybe Philosophy isn't counted as an exact science? People's opinions on things change after all, those that consider cloning today un-ethical may consider it a must tomorrow. But in general, it is applied in a non-religious sense, even if many of it's traits are derived from thus.
I do not disagree with you on a pecticular sect of people being oppressed by the religious. It has happened through out history numerous times, the same way that one cannot ignore the breakthroughs in science.misterk post=18.73419.799909 said:
However, I do not believe that in the country in which I live, America, There should be a second class citizen. The minorities have fought for to long to bring to light the injustices dealt to them from the ignorant, and those unable to accept different points of view. With that, I do not believe the Church should sway in their decision to allow homosexuality. It should not be outlawed to be homosexual by our ruling government, but the government should in no way encroched(sp) upon the religious establishment that our country was established on, that being freedom of religion. The church and state should be separate.
I think this is the true problem with religion fanatics, and the "Anti-Theists". They are way to quick to force their points of view upon others, and are not willing to live and let live. I am not fond of homosexuals, but I have a few friends who are. It may upset me a bit when they kiss in front of me, but I have the ability to turn my head and not pay attention.
To those who have problems with the religious people downtown who like to spread the word of god in an attempt to save your souls, feel good for those people. They are not causing harm. These people are genuinely worried about you and are afraid that you will not end up with them in heaven. They care for you and are doing what they believe is helpful toward you.
But anyone who forces their opinion on someone else and treats them as less than a person, that person is scum, and the VERY problem with mankind and peace ever existing anywhere.
Huh?PaintedDeath post=18.73419.799872 said:
It looks like you're saying you like the dogmatic belief in eternal punishment because it scares people away from committing suicide. That's pretty repugnant.
Religious guilt is a nifty form of social control, but it's far from all-powerful. As centuries of Christian history have shown us, threatening people with hell doesn't magically cause them to abandon all of their "sinful" behaviors. Some people will still kill themselves just like some people will still lie, some people will still murder, and some people will still not pay their church tithes or engage in sodomy or deny the Holy Spirit.
Of course, now that you've brought in hell to discourage all those suicides, whenever anybody does commit suicide their "loved ones" also have to worry about the idea that the recently departed is destined to suffer forever. Doesn't exactly make it easier to deal with daddy taking his own life, does it?
-- Alex
I really liked the use of the word repugnant there, it really sets the mood for your attack.
As for Social Control, Rome is the best better example for religion being used as social control, but for the time being, we are keeping it in the present tense, rather than the pretense, so your argument lacks there.
If you are trying to point out the fact that people are far from perfect, I'm glad you actually took the time to point that out.
As for the people who have lost their loved one's to suicide, I wasn't bringing up their loss or their pain or how they deal with this.
I have no idea how these people would deal with this loss, nor do I have any idea of how you would deal with a loss like this, so I cannot comment.
As for Social Control, Rome is the best better example for religion being used as social control, but for the time being, we are keeping it in the present tense, rather than the pretense, so your argument lacks there.
If you are trying to point out the fact that people are far from perfect, I'm glad you actually took the time to point that out.
As for the people who have lost their loved one's to suicide, I wasn't bringing up their loss or their pain or how they deal with this.
I have no idea how these people would deal with this loss, nor do I have any idea of how you would deal with a loss like this, so I cannot comment.
I also have a list of religious tragedies and agnostic tragedies. I like to call them human nature.lukemdizzle post=18.73419.798651 said:
Science trumps destructive power, Religion trumps Terrorism, Agnosticism trumps destruction of human rights.
Apparently I did because you can't prove or disprove Evolution or any other Science except with reference to themselves.Alleged_Alec post=18.73419.799539 said:
To take a closer look
Now either your trying to prove invisible rhinos or you're trying to imply that non-proof of existence isn't a reason for changing behaviour.
Given the thread it's on, I'd think the latter.
Now...if I told you that the seat you're sitting on is 99% empty space, you might want to leap off it before it collapses. According to Molecular Theory that is true, however we can't prove it's existence.
TBF, eating pork in a hot country like Jerusalem is a very bad idea due to many diseases in such a fatty meat.Archaeology Hat post=18.73419.799084 said:
The Bible was also written entirely by men who had little to no concept of women other than mothers or whores.
It would be seriously amiss to impose our morale values on theirs, equally theirs on ours.
That doesn't mean their ethical values are at stake.
The first recorded Genocide ever was commanded the god-king Sargon in Mesopotamia because a city refused to accept his religion.
Humans are Jerks and religion is often an excuse to hide behind.
[/quote]
Well Said.
That seems a very ecumenical argument. So I believe in God and I've got a chance of greatness and a chance of not losing?
[/quote]
However:
Humanity has believed in many many many deities over the Milennia. Say the Christian God is number 16,000. What if there is a god? What if that god isn't number 16,000... but is number 16,001... who just happens to be Baal. You're royally screwed then, not only do you believe in the wrong god... but you believe in a god who's holy texts specifically comdemn the worship of Baal. Athiest are probably screwed as well... but at least they haven't personally insulted Baal all their lives.[/quote]
Given Baal's resume, I think I'd rather be with the Bearded guy.
What's this? "If the very thought of hell, and holy retribution hasn't saved many a stressed soul through-out the years from stealing from their loved one's themselves, and you still have a problem with religious dogma, then you are a bad person."PaintedDeath post=18.73419.800210 said:
Saving "loved ones" some grief was basically the only argument you were making, given that the individual contemplating suicide in your little example has a life of "no happiness" to look forward to for himself.
-- Alex
True, apologies for that but I was doing three other things at the time and my computer has a habit of failing on me and deleting my entire text at the moment. Think I've got an unresolved hardware conflict, or maybe God hates me.
So what exactly, is your argument then Alex? I simply put that religion, in a hypothetical setting, has been the sole purpose of people's aversion to suicide and has been the very thread on which life or death has rested upon for many a person, the crutch if you will, that has helped them through the dark days of our lives. What exactly, are you arguing Alex? That God doesn't exist? That God is merely a crutch? That religion is bad? That religion is the very root of the evil that plagues mankind? That if we all were all to take an Atheist point of view, those who committed suicide, their families who were atheist and had no fear as to where they ancestors souls rested, would be at ease because there is no hell to which they were sent?Alex_P post=18.73419.800252 said:
"Loved ones" with parenthesis.
Just because I'm interested, let me see that list of Agnostic Tragedies.The_root_of_all_evil post=18.73419.800222 said:
