Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism

[lukemdizzle]

Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism Page 7
16 posts
The actual topic involving Atheism/Antitheism is mentioned in one post. The rest concern quantum mechanics, a retarded and overused example of 2 and 2 not equalling 4 (Kant find the inequal sign... ha) and science vs religion, another topic entirely.
New metaphysical law: The definite position and direction of a thread is indeterminable from one post to the next.

A little unfair, given that Math/Science is predominantly Atheistic and Anti-Theistic.

As for smug agnostics, Religion and Science both accept that they don't have all the answers; so the sensible option would be to take from both camps, surely?

I know that the_root_of_all_evil and I have gone at it before and the answer for both of us is that we don't know and to say that our answer is better than anybody else isn't good in ether case. Its not good for atheists to be anti religion and visa versa. It is bad when people distort beliefs in order to manipulate people but until we can find proof of ether side scientifically than we have to admit ignorance

and if no mater what your beliefs are it is important to them up with fact if you want them to be regarded scientifically, nether side can say they have done so. I don't believe in god because I think of it as something humans created to comfort them

 

[WhitemageofDOOM]

I would contend that the uncertainty of a particle's position and momentum is a failing of current physics, and not a property of the universe. Our perception of a particle is constrained by our observation of it, which is limited by factors both known and unknown. If mankind were to have the ability to view a particle in every existing dimension of reality, it is possible that the particle's exact position and momentum could be determined.

Ie the hidden variable theory, which was constructed by scientists(including einstein) simply because they didn't want to accept a non-newtonian universe.
Hence "there is no hidden variable", the hidden variable theory doesn't get respect in modern science. It's generally accepted that the fact quantum states are unpredictable is part and parcel to there nature. That they are actually random.

Uncertainty principle does not extend to other areas of science in which outcomes are predictable, and are evidential of order.

Your right in that it's not a big deal to larger things(like us) that the small things are so random because with so many small things that there is little chance of the bizzare happening. But the underlying truth behind the universes apparent order is still chaos.

What you have for dinner isn't set in stone.

 

[mtk2a]

Arguing existentialism on a message board is pointless.

Everyone is so certain of their infallibility, neither side is ever moved by the others argument.

Here's what I think: The religious and the atheist are both wrong, neither side knows shit from shit, and they're both full of jerks.

Humanity is annoying.

I'm not trying to convince anybody to be an atheist.

I'm not even trying to convince smug agnostics who think "NOBODY KNOWS!" is a brilliant intellectual leap that it's actually nothing special.

I'm trying to convince random onlookers that smug agnostics are just cowering behind sophistry.

-- Alex

Still trying, I see.

What makes you think I'm smug?

Lol, haha, and gtfo.

 

[Alex_P]

What makes you think I'm smug?

*shrug* My initial reply in this little side conversation wasn't directed to you, IIRC.

-- Alex

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

I know that the_root_of_all_evil and I have gone at it before and the answer for both of us is that we don't know and to say that our answer is better than anybody else isn't good in ether case.

TBF, I've also questioned Anarchemitis's faith and Aries's(I think) Science; but surely the sign of a good belief system is that it's open to question?

I know I've not got all the answers, and I'm happy that way. Having all the answers would be boring.

The thing I'm still puzzling on is when Atheism actually isn't Anti-Theism, because most of the Atheists I meet are very strongly Anti-Theism.

 

[lukemdizzle]

Arguing existentialism on a message board is pointless.

Everyone is so certain of their infallibility, neither side is ever moved by the others argument.

Here's what I think: The religious and the atheist are both wrong, neither side knows shit from shit, and they're both full of jerks.

Humanity is annoying.

I'm not trying to convince anybody to be an atheist.

I'm not even trying to convince smug agnostics who think "NOBODY KNOWS!" is a brilliant intellectual leap that it's actually nothing special.

I'm trying to convince random onlookers that smug agnostics are just cowering behind sophistry.

-- Alex

well sorry but the fact is that nobody knows. I think that it is better to peruse real answers with definitive data than to just make assumptions ether way. sorry if that comes across as smug, your entailed to your beliefs and Im entitled to mine

 

[lukemdizzle]

I know that the_root_of_all_evil and I have gone at it before and the answer for both of us is that we don't know and to say that our answer is better than anybody else isn't good in ether case.

TBF, I've also questioned Anarchemitis's faith and Aries's(I think) Science; but surely the sign of a good belief system is that it's open to question?

I know I've not got all the answers, and I'm happy that way. Having all the answers would be boring.

The thing I'm still puzzling on is when Atheism actually isn't Anti-Theism, because most of the Atheists I meet are very strongly Anti-Theism.

thats true but we will never know everything, never and if by some miracle we do find truth than Im positive it will only rase more interesting questions to explore

also one of the reasons I do love science is because its so open to skepticism and new ideas but it requires proof to be taken seriously so than not just anybody can re wright a textbook how they see fit

 

[NanashiDorobou]

Atheism Vs. Anti-Theism Page 7
16 posts
The actual topic involving Atheism/Antitheism is mentioned in one post. The rest concern quantum mechanics, a retarded and overused example of 2 and 2 not equalling 4 (Kant find the inequal sign... ha) and science vs religion, another topic entirely.
New metaphysical law: The definite position and direction of a thread is indeterminable from one post to the next.

A little unfair, given that Math/Science is predominantly Atheistic and Anti-Theistic.

As for smug agnostics, Religion and Science both accept that they don't have all the answers; so the sensible option would be to take from both camps, surely?

Couple things on that: Science, yes, is mainly atheistic and anti-theistic, but Math? There are a ton of numbers in the bible, there's a book of the bible called "Numbers". I think math falls more to the religious side, and is primarily Jewish at that.

(From http://dictionary.reference.com/) Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience
Smug: contentedly confident of one's ability, superiority, or correctness; complacent.

I'm interested in exactly how those reconcile to make a smug agnostic.

... and don't call me Shirley.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

also one of the reasons I do love science is because its so open to skepticism and new ideas but it requires proof to be taken seriously so than not just anybody can re wright a textbook how they see fit

Hrrrrmmm...mostly...but you throw Eugenics into the mix and you've got something as bad as any Crusade.

 

[Moloch-De]

Very nice Post Wyatt. I would agree with most of it but only in case religion wouldn't effect everybody, not just the belivers. As much as i try not to be "anti"...
It is similar to science in the fact that it can make things better or worse depending on the ones USING IT.
10000 jears ago the humans would have difficultys wiping themselfs from the surface of the world but today we can do it in 5 hours if some powerfull guys would like to and take most life with us.
Fact is that during no time in history we had so few wars and such long lifes thanks to our science, so it seems the ones USING IT actually choose to do things I PERSONALLY judge good.

People USING religion on the other hand do some good things. The Father of a good freind died and i think the faith was such a gread crutch on which i won't be able to lean when time comes and i lose somebody.
But it is not easy to name more aspects of modern belive that I PERSONALLY judge good compared to aspects that i categorize bad influence:
-restriction of free choise concerning abortin
-terrorism
-geocide (middel east and africa)
-denial of scientific fact and thus less funding for reserch concerning areas i take interest in
-controversy around gay people
-prudent view of sexual issues especially concerning fammily planing
-further dividing the western christian world from the arabic world
-hypocracy (it gives me plain a headach when i think about soldiers who folow the bible but still denie that "deadly sin" is not a flexible term)
-unpollitical politics -> to be a good U.S President it is more importnt to have faith than to know how to do pollitics; immagine there would be a hindu guy who has the best concept for the financial crises an the forign pollicies; he wouldnt even be considert since a christian competitor would win for sure.



I guess i have not listed a lot of possitiv (wellfair) an negative influences of the church but i made my point. I am respectfill of people who really belive, it is just part of our society and when i would go out to make everything better by myself i would start with much greater "evils" than religion.
It's just that i think the anti-crowd is not the offender and poor religious people getting beat up but everything is action and reaction.

 

[ceeqanguel]

Lemme put it this way: Have you ever thought it would be ok to chop your baby son's foreskin off, even if EVERY medical experts all agree it doesn't help hygiene in any way and doesn't make your sex bigger? Of course not! What horrible pain to a baby? Religion has.

Now would you chop off your teenage daughter's clitoris off to "keep her pure"? Of course not! I might kill her! Religion still does.

Would you pay up to 60 000$ just to dig a 7'x3', 6-foot deep hole in the ground? To a manipulative asshole who wants to make a profit while you are most grieving? Oh better yet: to give you a pine box AND THEN BURN IT? Of course not! Who wouldn't want to kick this jerk's ass? Religion demands you to do that.

Do you trust a creationnist who's done prison for fraud? (Kent Hovind)
Do you ask a doctor when feel ill, or can you pray your diabetes away?
Do universities teach medecine or faith healing?
Do universities teach astronomy, or astrology?
Do universities teach science or witchcraft? (ok they DO teach ABOUT witchcraft in anthropology)
Is the earth flat?
Does water, when picked on Easter morning, really destroy ghosts, cure cancer or ?
Do you want a slave?
Would you forgive the guy raping you as a child, and then see how everyone around can't help you because "that priest is just soooo nice"?
If you steal, murder or beat up your wife, does saying: "god made me do it" make you innocent?
Did logic or faith give you your computer?
Do dead guys ressurect?

I am anti-theist
You are NOT a better person if you believe without evidence.
You are stupid.
And I hate you.
but I'll still protect you and shed my blood so that we are all someday the world is free from fear.
But I'll do everything I can to stop you from doing stuff that might ruin my life.

 

[lukemdizzle]

also one of the reasons I do love science is because its so open to skepticism and new ideas but it requires proof to be taken seriously so than not just anybody can re wright a textbook how they see fit

Hrrrrmmm...mostly...but you throw Eugenics into the mix and you've got something as bad as any Crusade.

you can be pro science and pro ethics at the same time

Eugenic, while following the principals of natural selection is in the realms of the most extreme, yes we have them too.

In my opinion the human race is beginning to evolve out of weeding out of the individually week and more into a spices that only gets stronger when the masses work as one

 

[lukemdizzle]

Lemme put it this way: Have you ever thought it would be ok to chop your baby son's foreskin off, even if EVERY medical experts all agree it doesn't help hygiene in any way and doesn't make your sex bigger? Of course not! What horrible pain to a baby? Religion has.

Now would you chop off your teenage daughter's clitoris off to "keep her pure"? Of course not! I might kill her! Religion still does.

Would you pay up to 60 000$ just to dig a 7'x3', 6-foot deep hole in the ground? To a manipulative asshole who wants to make a profit while you are most grieving? Oh better yet: to give you a pine box AND THEN BURN IT? Of course not! Who wouldn't want to kick this jerk's ass? Religion demands you to do that.

Do you trust a creationnist who's done prison for fraud? (Kent Hovind)
Do you ask a doctor when feel ill, or can you pray your diabetes away?
Do universities teach medecine or faith healing?
Do universities teach astronomy, or astrology?
Do universities teach science or witchcraft? (ok they DO teach ABOUT witchcraft in anthropology)
Is the earth flat?
Does water, when picked on Easter morning, really destroy ghosts, cure cancer or ?
Do you want a slave?
Would you forgive the guy raping you as a child, and then see how everyone around can't help you because "that priest is just soooo nice"?
If you steal, murder or beat up your wife, does saying: "god made me do it" make you innocent?
Did logic or faith give you your computer?
Do dead guys ressurect?

I am anti-theist
You are NOT a better person if you believe without evidence.
You are stupid.
And I hate you.
but I'll still protect you and shed my blood so that we are all someday the world is free from fear.
But I'll do everything I can to stop you from doing stuff that might ruin my life.

well you shouldn't condemn the basic teachings of realign (be a good person and help others) for these jerks. personally I think the bible is a glorified version of Asops fables, fairy tails with important morals that you should follow if you believe in the tail or not. but what you listed are people who distort these tails in order to promote their opinions. which is wrong no mater what

p.s. root of all evil has a list of atheist related tragedies to wave at you so realize that its a two way street

 

[Alex_P]

well sorry but the fact is that nobody knows. I think that it is better to peruse real answers with definitive data than to just make assumptions ether way. sorry if that comes across as smug, your entailed to your beliefs and Im entitled to mine

I view the god hypothesis the same way I view the "nothing I see is actually real" hypothesis.

You can't truly disprove "nothing I see is actually real," after all. No amount of evidence or absence-of-evidence is sufficient.

There's no harm in occasionally revisiting "nothing I see is actually real" just as a kind of self-check -- questioning your existence can help you make sense of it. But it's absolutely ludicrous to elevate "nothing I see is actually real" to the same level as the massive, self-consistent body of information that you've acquired that is all vaguely contingent on the idea that there is, in fact, a reality around you.

There's no evidence that really suggests that god is real, just like there's no evidence that really suggests that everything I see isn't real. Neither of those conclusions really yields a lot of information (particularly predictions about stuff you don't already know) when taken for granted.

Fallibilistic uncertainty pervades all human experience. Does that mean "we can never really know" is the only answer to every question anyone could ask?

-- Alex

 

[Alex_P]

Couple things on that: Science, yes, is mainly atheistic and anti-theistic, but Math? There are a ton of numbers in the bible, there's a book of the bible called "Numbers". I think math falls more to the religious side, and is primarily Jewish at that.

Ancient cultures most definitely mixed mathematical thinking with mysticism. Quite a bit of that was in the form of esoteric cults rather than conventional religious practice, though -- the Pythagoreans are perhaps the best example there. Modern mathematicians don't really do the cult thing anymore.

I think the Bible is actually a poor example of religious "math" because esoteric number-play like gematria doesn't really mean anything outside its own little mystical tradition (certainly not compared to something like geometry).

For example, "Numbers" just refers to counting of the Israelites and various subgroups thereof (while they're in the Sinai post-Exodus). IIRC, there aren't really any actual mathematical ideas in that particular book.

(From http://dictionary.reference.com/) Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience
Smug: contentedly confident of one's ability, superiority, or correctness; complacent.

I'm interested in exactly how those reconcile to make a smug agnostic.

Someone who's very sure that "nobody knows!" is the best possible answer and thinks of him- or her- self highly for having come to that conclusion.

-- Alex

 

[Archaeology Hat]

well you shouldn't condemn the basic teachings of realign (be a good person and help others) for these jerks.

Err, yes you should. Those teachings include; no eating of pigs and the stoning to death of any woman who gets raped in a city.

p.s. root of all evil has a list of atheist related tragedies to wave at you so realize that its a two way street

The first recorded Genocide ever was commanded the god-king Sargon in Mesopotamia because a city refused to accept his religion.
Humans are Jerks and religion is often an excuse to hide behind.

The strongest anti-theist arguement I've heared goes like this:

Pascals wager goes:
If you believe in God and he his real when you die you go do heaven.
If you believe in God and he is not real, when you die, you lose nothing.

However:
Humanity has believed in many many many deities over the Milennia. Say the Christian God is number 16,000. What if there is a god? What if that god isn't number 16,000... but is number 16,001... who just happens to be Baal. You're royally screwed then, not only do you believe in the wrong god... but you believe in a god who's holy texts specifically comdemn the worship of Baal. Athiest are probably screwed as well... but at least they haven't personally insulted Baal all their lives.

 

[IronDuke]

ive never heard of a single time when someone came to God and then went back.

Well, here I am. I could introduce you to about 30 people I know like that.

Me too, I know all my cousins on one side did that, a couple of friends and other relatives. Most grew out of it.

 

[AMVP]

I wish I had more time to look into this thread, as what I've read already has been very intriguing. Alas, I have a Biology test to study for (ironic? maybe) and as such must return to it later. So, I'll just say my piece now.

I, like NewClassic, subscribe to the Southern Baptist denomination of Christianity (not that i'm the type to get bogged down with splitting hairs). Over the years, especially since high school, my faith has had to contend with alot, both socially and personally. Over that time, however, my faith has endured, hopefully even matured, and I feel i'm now a better person for it. Pertaining to the atheist/anti-theism issue at hand, I won't beat anyone over the head with the Bible lest it be tarnished (there are already enough people doing that, I'm sure). I think that the most important thing is for a sense of open-mindedness, however guarded it may be, to extend both ways on the spectrum, and for love of all people to permiate regardless of circumstance.

Also, based on what I've seen here and on other similar topics elsewhere, it seems I'm always finding more atheists than professed Christians. Rather than take this to mean there are more of the former than the later, or even that there are on the internet, I think it's more of a matter of the type of sites I tend to visit. Don't mean to generalize; just a hypothesis at best.

"He's an Atheist Gamer! He doesn't believe in God Mode."
-Kenny Blanketship, "Most Extreme Elimination Challange"

 

[Signa]

Lemme put it this way: Have you ever thought it would be ok to chop your baby son's foreskin off, even if EVERY medical experts all agree it doesn't help hygiene in any way and doesn't make your sex bigger? Of course not! What horrible pain to a baby? Religion has.

Now would you chop off your teenage daughter's clitoris off to "keep her pure"? Of course not! I might kill her! Religion still does.

Would you pay up to 60 000$ just to dig a 7'x3', 6-foot deep hole in the ground? To a manipulative asshole who wants to make a profit while you are most grieving? Oh better yet: to give you a pine box AND THEN BURN IT? Of course not! Who wouldn't want to kick this jerk's ass? Religion demands you to do that.

Do you trust a creationnist who's done prison for fraud? (Kent Hovind)
Do you ask a doctor when feel ill, or can you pray your diabetes away?
Do universities teach medecine or faith healing?
Do universities teach astronomy, or astrology?
Do universities teach science or witchcraft? (ok they DO teach ABOUT witchcraft in anthropology)
Is the earth flat?
Does water, when picked on Easter morning, really destroy ghosts, cure cancer or ?
Do you want a slave?
Would you forgive the guy raping you as a child, and then see how everyone around can't help you because "that priest is just soooo nice"?
If you steal, murder or beat up your wife, does saying: "god made me do it" make you innocent?
Did logic or faith give you your computer?
Do dead guys ressurect?

I am anti-theist
You are NOT a better person if you believe without evidence.
You are stupid.
And I hate you.
but I'll still protect you and shed my blood so that we are all someday the world is free from fear.
But I'll do everything I can to stop you from doing stuff that might ruin my life.

Why did you have to be so offensive with the last part of your post? You had a good one going there!

That last part really makes me wonder how far off you are on why you hate religion. No one I know thinks they are a better person because they believe in bullshit. They are better people because they can forgive those who have wronged them, and are capable of dropping blood-feuds before they start. The need for revenge can be insatiable, and because of this, only the best people seem to be able to overcome that need. You, my friend, are nowhere near that point. I just hope you can come to terms with what really bothers you about religion... Is it the blind sheep of people who follow it, is it the way those sheep scream at the top of their lungs that you need to join them, or do you really take issue with what the religion teaches at its core? Staying angry at a group of people because they think differently than you makes you no better than them.

The Bible IS just a over-sized compilation of Aesop's fables. I feel your rage at the thought of some one thinking that Noah's Ark wasn't just a tall tale. But why does it matter what they think? How does their opinion become your concern? The Bible is supposed to be the word of an infallible being. Challenging that is like trying to say that the earth is flat. It's not worth your time or effort to argue. It's FAR easier to just say "I don't believe that because I don't think that God would do that." It doesn't matter if you think God is even there. Let THEM think about why it might be wrong in their own terms. You will never get them to listen to you screaming "YOU'RE WRONG" while they are screaming it back at you.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

Brief resume : Invisible rhinos not existing doesn't imply that Unseen Entities also don't exist.

Proof : Wind Power.

Apparently, you haven't read my post (well), because I haven't said anything about gods not existing. I said that because we can neither disprove or prove that a god(s) exist, we shouldn't act like there is one.