Atheist Bible

[caross73]

So according to you, only you are actually correct in any sense and that there is absolutely zero chance of anybody even having the possibility of being correct.

No, there is very nearly zero chance of YOU being correct about this particular thing.

You might be wrong, I might be wrong, you might be right or I might be right, we have no way of knowing until after we die. This means that I have as equal a chance as anybody of being correct.

When you die, there is no YOU left to be right. All these wonderful ideas you have? See, I can map them on an fMRI. I know exactly what is causing them. And when you die, poof, they don't happen any more. So unless my eyes are lying to me (it IS possible, but then its also possible that you aren't even real), what you are describing is nonsense.

And think about this, maybe Malaria or Cancer are just tests sent by God to test us and see our reactions. Read the Book of Job, the devil wanted to test a man's faith in God and so put these plagues upon him. Cancer and Malaria are tests of our faith, but we have the ability to prevent these plagues from reaching everyone.

Why would a perfect God need to test us? He would already know who would pass and who would fail. And what kind of asshole makes a test that causes people to suffer through the actions or inactions of other fallible individuals, when he has the power to do otherwise? Job is a very bad argument for God. After all, who created the Devil in the first place?

 

[BNguyen]

So according to you, only you are actually correct in any sense and that there is absolutely zero chance of anybody even having the possibility of being correct.

No, there is very nearly zero chance of YOU being correct about this particular thing.

You might be wrong, I might be wrong, you might be right or I might be right, we have no way of knowing until after we die. This means that I have as equal a chance as anybody of being correct.

When you die, there is no YOU left to be right. All these wonderful ideas you have? See, I can map them on an fMRI. I know exactly what is causing them. And when you die, poof, they don't happen any more. So unless my eyes are lying to me, what you are describing is nonsense.

And think about this, maybe Malaria or Cancer are just tests sent by God to test us and see our reactions. Read the Book of Job, the devil wanted to test a man's faith in God and so put these plagues upon him. Cancer and Malaria are tests of our faith, but we have the ability to prevent these plagues from reaching everyone.

Why would a perfect God need to test us? He would already know who would pass and who would fail.

Well, If I'm wrong, then you are just as wrong. According to me, you are wrong and everybody is wrong, including myself. There is no correct answer and no atheist can make me feel any different.
Free will is our gift from God, he tests us to see how we will act using our free-will. We are not being controlled, we act.
And just because you can explain something doesn't mean it isn't the will of God. You only understand as far as he allows you to understand, you are not perfect but you act as though you are.

 

[caross73]

Well, If I'm wrong, then you are just as wrong. According to me, you are wrong and everybody is wrong, including myself. There is no correct answer and no atheist can make me feel any different.

If you say so.

Free will is our gift from God, he tests us to see how we will act using our free-will. We are not being controlled, we act.
And just because you can explain something doesn't mean it isn't the will of God. You only understand as far as he allows you to understand, you are not perfect but you act as though you are.

Thats nice that you feel that way. I see no reason to think that that hypothesis is correct over any of the other stories people have made up to escape responsibility for their own situation and actions, or to justify and comfort themselves at the universe's indifference to them.

That thought provides no benefit to me for holding it, makes no testable predictions, its an unthought; there is nothing tying it to reality. It can't be verified in any way, and there are an infinite number of other unthoughts just like it that have just as much supporting them, ie., nothing.

 

[BNguyen]

Thats nice that you feel that way. I see no reason to think that that hypothesis is correct over any of the other stories people have made up to escape responsibility for their own situation and actions, or to justify and comfort themselves at the universe's indifference to them.

That thought provides no benefit to me for holding it, makes no testable predictions, its an unthought. It can't be verified in any way, and there are an infinite number of other unthoughts just like it that have just as much supporting them.[/quote]


I don't lie to hide my life, you dilude yourself into believing that only you are correct so you are actually hiding. And your story has just as much chance of being false as any other.
I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree with it.

 

[caross73]

Thats nice that you feel that way. I see no reason to think that that hypothesis is correct over any of the other stories people have made up to escape responsibility for their own situation and actions, or to justify and comfort themselves at the universe's indifference to them.

That thought provides no benefit to me for holding it, makes no testable predictions, its an unthought. It can't be verified in any way, and there are an infinite number of other unthoughts just like it that have just as much supporting them.

I don't lie to hide my life, you dilude yourself into believing that only you are correct so you are actually hiding. And your story has just as much chance of being false as any other.
I respect your opinion but I don't have to agree with it.

Who is hiding my life? I have examined a great number of religions, and find all of them to be lacking in justification for belief save (perhaps) Zen Buddhism, and its arguable if that is even a religion. I already said I could be wrong and there could be SOMETHING out there. My eyes could indeed be lying to me and you could indeed have found the true church, the one with the right idea.

You can tell yourself whatever you want so that you can live with your tortured and unverified conjecture about reality. I hope it gives you great comfort to know that YOU are the one who is really right, who is put upon by know-it-alls that say that all other such untestable conjectures have ultimately turned out to be false, like all the times a cult has claimed the apocalypse was about to occur. You know that deep down that there is a purpose to your life; you will live eternally in paradise and don't have to actually face the idea that maybe, just maybe, this is all you get.

The Greeks and Romans once felt as you do. How could someone not believe in mighty Zeus. The Egyptians, how could someone not believe in Mighty RA! But your belief is different. I'm very sorry to have troubled you about it.

Edit: I really actually am sorry. I wish that the universe were a more forgiving place and there actually were entities that watched over us and took care of us. And I hate that ultimately I am telling people bad news that they really don't want to hear.

 

[BNguyen]

Who is hiding my life? I have examined a great number of religions, and find all of them to be lacking in justification for belief save (perhaps) Zen Buddhism, and its arguable if that is even a religion. I already said I could be wrong and there could be SOMETHING out there. My eyes could indeed be lying to me and you could indeed have found the true church, the one with the right idea.

You can tell yourself whatever you want so that you can live with your tortured and unverified conjecture about reality. I hope it gives you great comfort to know that YOU are the one who is really right, who is put upon by know-it-alls that say that all other such untestable conjectures have ultimately turned out to be false, like all the times a cult has claimed the apocalypse was about to occur, who knows deep down that there is a purpose to his life, who will live eternally in paradise and doesn't have to actually face the idea that maybe, just maybe, this is all you get.

The Greeks and Romans once felt as you do. How could someone not believe in mighty Zeus. The Egyptians, how could someone not believe in Mighty RA! But your belief is different.[/quote]


"You can tell yourself whatever you want so that you can live with your tortured and unverified conjecture about reality." You think you are the only person who is ever right, I never claimed to be right, I just give evidence. I'm not a part of the corrupt system and have my own beliefs.
And I already said that I have a good chance of being wrong by using that apocolypse prediction crap.
We all have a purpose in this world whether it be good or bad, and apparently your purpose is to make yourself seem like a god on earth for all your "evidence". Evidence only serves to promote not prove.
I'm open to the idea that this might be all that we get, but I'm also open to the idea that maybe there might be something after life, something better, and that if I believe, I just might get a share in it. You hate the fact that you have the possibility of being wrong and so take your anger out based upon your beliefs.
We each have a different vision of reality, their is no one reality but an infinite number of realities as we all see it. Your reality is different from mine and always will be, so there is no point in trying to make a person see your reality if all they will do is try to make that person see their reality.

So how about a truce, we both leave this thread and never speak on this subject again.

 

[caross73]

You talk about different visions of reality as if that has some sort of meaning. It doesn't. Reality is what doesn't go away when we stop believing in it. Thats all.

We don't need a truce because I'm not angry at you. I'm not going to call you names or say you're unintelligent. I really am sorry. I wish there was a way you could possibly be right. But the mechanisms by which we gauge whether any other idea is believable or not will not accept claims without support.

We all have a purpose in this world whether it be good or bad, and apparently your purpose is to make yourself seem like a god on earth for all your "evidence". Evidence only serves to promote not prove.

What I don't like you doing is assuming my motives. That I want to be God-like. There's nothing at all God-like about being the bearer of bad news, or being constrained by reason. You know what its like to be right all the time? It means you get to be right about all the ways you are going to suffer. Thats all it is.

I'm open to the idea that this might be all that we get, but I'm also open to the idea that maybe there might be something after life, something better, and that if I believe, I just might get a share in it. You hate the fact that you have the possibility of being wrong and so take your anger out based upon your beliefs.

Fine, you're taking Pascal's wager. Better to believe than not. But Pascal's wager assumes there aren't any competing religions, that you won't be punished for taking it by a deity that thinks its petty and calculating.

Again, you are assuming I'm angry. I'm not angry. I'm really very sad. The only thing that makes me angry is when you assume my motivations. That this is all ego. I'm trying to make the world a better place, where we make moral decisions for the right reasons, because they decrease the amount of collective suffering, not because some bronze age book tells us that we'll make God angry. The first step in making the world better is seeing it the way it actually IS.

Religion, in my view, causes suffering. It says, better a child is born to parents who don't want it than not. Better people die of AIDS in Africa than use condoms. Better we build larger churches than house the homeless. Better we fly planes into buildings than permit the desecration of our holy lands.

 

[BNguyen]

Okay, so you have your views on subjects, and I have mine, we are limited by our perceptions and we state our opinions, but when I read your posts, I get the sense that you think that only you are right and your ideas are the only possibilities that there are, at least that is how I would put it.
But face facts, what we perceive isn't always right, we could both be wrong, maybe one of us is right, we'll never know. And don't go and say that I'm the one that is wrong because you have just as much a chance at being wrong as I do, no more, no less.
We do not gauge ideas based upon set theories but by what we believe in the end, our beliefs are not limited by mechanisms, such as the human imagination. With our imaginations, we shape our beliefs, so in the end, anything is possible.
Don't try to prove to me that your answer is the end all until the end, when the end comes, we will all come to understand who was the one that was actually wrong.

 

[BNguyen]

Fine, you're taking Pascal's wager. Better to believe than not. But Pascal's wager assumes there aren't any competing religions, that you won't be punished for taking it by a deity that thinks its petty and calculating.

Again, you are assuming I'm angry. I'm not angry. I'm really very sad. The only thing that makes me angry is when you assume my motivations. That this is all ego. I'm trying to make the world a better place, where we make moral decisions for the right reasons, because they decrease the amount of collective suffering, not because some bronze age book tells us that we'll make God angry. The first step in making the world better is seeing it the way it actually IS.

Religion, in my view, causes suffering. It says, better a child is born to parents who don't want it than not. Better people die of AIDS in Africa than use condoms. Better we build larger churches than house the homeless. Better we fly planes into buildings than permit the desecration of our holy lands.[/quote]


I assume your motivations because all I have to work with is your statements against me and so many others. And the first step towards making the world a better place is not seeing the way that it is, we have the ability to change what it is, the first step in tolerance, understanding, and respect towards one another.
Maybe some religions do cause suffering, but not all of them do, some religions actually help make people's lives better, some people actually work to do that by sharing their religion. Those that build bigger churches are only in it for the money, my church is not greedy and we give most of the money we make the help those who need it. Religion is a way of helping the community come together. And that 9/11 reference was commited by extremists, those who want to force their religions on others or slay them if they refuse to do so. I'm not an extremist and it doesn't matter whether you believe me or not, the only thing that matters is that you believe yourself.
And lastly, AIDs in Africa has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with sex education. If they were properly taught, then there'd probably be no more AIDs in Africa.

 

[caross73]

And don't go and say that I'm the one that is wrong because you have just as much a chance at being wrong as I do, no more, no less.
...
Don't try to prove to me that your answer is the end all until the end, when the end comes, we will all come to understand who was the one that was actually wrong.

First, you can't "find out", its untestable, and second, you are in the wrong. If you were going around saying 1+1=3 I would do no less, because you are just as wrong. This whole bologna about chances being equal is ridiculous. You are the one promoting a radical hypothesis. I am being conservative here. Yes, there could be something out there, yes it could be possible that its godlike, but is it Yahweh who incarnates just to be sacrificed again to forgive sins that an ultimate being could wish away without breaking a sweat? You are pushing a ridiculous notion, in fact layer after layer of non-sequitors. You stop promoting it, tell your friends to quit putting up posters saying "I AM. -God", and I'll stop saying its wrong.

Yes its my opinion. You can disregard it at your peril. At least I told you.

 

[BNguyen]

How am I wrong?

 

[BNguyen]

Fine I'll stop promoting my views, I'll continue to believe them either way.
I'll give up my rights of free speech just to make you happy. I am just an illusion, I am only a thought in some system. But in the end, you are also only an illusion of this system.

 

[caross73]

I can't begin to list all the ways. Every single Biblical parable about miracles, every single assumption you have made about the ways of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being.

....

Great! And then you and I will never have cause to talk about it again.

 

[Spacelord]

Oh, for the love of god, this is like Godwin's law, Escapist style: whenever a word like atheism or christianity pops up in a topic, the further the topic continues it will result in a religious debate.

Please let this thread die. Believe what you believe and don't try to convert someone with a two-paragraph blurb.

Ugh, the futility of it all...

Hey! Maybe OP has a point.

 

[Noone From Nowhere]

To get this thing back on topic with yet another reply-
As opposed to the holy books of religions which are written only by prophets, the Atheist Bible could be written by submissions from anyone willing to contribute to a secular book of guidelines to living and/or reasoning. It could start out as a website which, after a set amount of time, can be compiled from the best entries by a group of editors or some online poll.
That or it can be a Role Playing Game about a wo/man's quest to gather material for such a text...during the Dark Ages.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

As opposed to the holy books of religions which are written only by prophets, the Atheist Bible could be written by submissions from anyone willing to contribute to a secular book of guidelines to living and/or reasoning. It could start out as a website which, after a set amount of time, can be compiled from the best entries by a group of editors or some online poll.

Atheism isn't secular. Secular reasoning is silent on religious belief, it doesn't take a side. What you are describing would probably be more of an agnostic thingy-bob.

 

[space_oddity]

But where is our moral tome, our compendium of all that we believe?

Dr. Seuss

?Fun is good.? - Dr. Seuess

You win the thread.

 

[TheMadDoctorsCat]

Religion, in my view, causes suffering. It says, better a child is born to parents who don't want it than not. Better people die of AIDS in Africa than use condoms. Better we build larger churches than house the homeless. Better we fly planes into buildings than permit the desecration of our holy lands.

Hmmm... not sure about this one. In the history of the world you'll generally find that evil men will use any excuse to commit atrocities. Religion just happens to be a convenient one because, well, so many people are religious I guess. Look at the USSR during communism for example. There were no shortage of atrocities committed there, but not in the name of religion.

I'm sceptical of grand, all-explaining narratives, whether they invoke a divine being or not. I'd dispute that religion is the common factor.

 

[Noone From Nowhere]

As opposed to the holy books of religions which are written only by prophets, the Atheist Bible could be written by submissions from anyone willing to contribute to a secular book of guidelines to living and/or reasoning. It could start out as a website which, after a set amount of time, can be compiled from the best entries by a group of editors or some online poll.

Atheism isn't secular. Secular reasoning is silent on religious belief, it doesn't take a side. What you are describing would probably be more of an agnostic thingy-bob.

Well, fine. Atheism isn't secular. Still, an open contribution policy or comedy book could turn up something that just about anyone would want on their bookshelves or harddrives regardless of their belief or lack thereof in a Higher Power.(like The Gay man's Guide to Heterosexuality?)
One more suggestion for now: use an Artificial Intelligence to generate one. If anyone won't have a bias or flawed logic, it's a machine. Just make sure that it isn't using a Windows operating system. Ha!

 

[PiCroft]

God is all powerful and planned the world to act in such a way, we are all simply beings with free-will that act during these events and he observes us as we act. So God is all-knowing and all powerful but lets us act individually, besides, if he truly is all-knowing and all powerful then you would not now have the freedom to act against me and would most likely do nothing. We cannot abandon the possibility that both an all powerful all knowing God exist alongside free-will.

We also cannot abandon the possibility that both up is down and down is orangeade.

I want a pint of whatever you're smoking.