Attention European Escapist! Why do you hate your country?
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It's certainly possible, yes. I would wager you could find individuals in any country that exhibit "American" patriotism, and I doubt that you're the only country in the world that does that. However, in my experience (and I've travelled a helluva lot, so that's quite an extensive experience if I do say so myself), the majority of nations look at American patriotism as a bit... weird. When I was in Tonga, I remember an American family we'd been travelling with getting incredibly excited at finding canned American sausages, I think they were. My family looked up from the amazing local meal we were chowing down on at the time (including fresh fish) to give them some very odd looks. Surrounded on every side by an entirely different culture, and these friends of ours were just pleased to have found tinned food from home.Volf99 said:
In any case, I live in Australia, and I think some elements of Australian society come pretty close to mimicking American patriotism. Still, the majority of those people I meet are extremely critical of their own country (and the patriotic elements in particular). Having been to the US, I can tell you this. From the point of view of the majority of nations in this world, the patriotism seen so prominently in the United States is looked at as something of an aberration by the majority of the planet. Weird, incomprehensible, and potentially dangerous.
Come to think of it, how the whole 9/11 attack is seen is an interesting example. When I was in the US, it was seen as being an unprovoked attack on defenceless civilians by evil terrorists. Over here, most people I know see it as a group of extremists retaliating against America for the attacks, oppression, and all the other atrocities America had been supporting in the Middle East for the previous few decades. Still an appalling attack targetting civilians, admittedly, but it certainly isn't seen as being unprovoked.
I'm pretty sure that most countries over here in Europe don't spoon-feed their citizens with patriotic propaganda on an almost daily basis. So 'we' don't have a general bias towards our own country, thinking it is the best thing since sliced bread.
Because of this, people are able to look at their country more critically and won't be made to feel like an outcast when voicing such opinions.
Because of this, people are able to look at their country more critically and won't be made to feel like an outcast when voicing such opinions.
im from the republic now known as the second "I" in P.I.I.G.Srobotam said:
sadly the 100 miles or so further south I am doesn't have any improvement on this shitty weather
Yeah, this. Any time I see a European hating a country on this site, they're hating America, not whatever country they live in. Not that all Europeans do that, mind you. I'm not dumb enough to think that like the group doing it about America are dumb enough to think we're all the same because of some bad apples, but still, whenever there's a European on here hating something, it's usually America.dyre said:
Most people deep down do love their country. The whining is just something we do.
It's just we show our patriotism when we need to. I think people are "more patriotic" (emphasis on quotation marks) in America because they make a far bigger thing of it.
Also, it's a bit sweeping to even talk about "Europeans" because most of the countries within it aren't really alike and half of them hate each other.
It's just we show our patriotism when we need to. I think people are "more patriotic" (emphasis on quotation marks) in America because they make a far bigger thing of it.
Also, it's a bit sweeping to even talk about "Europeans" because most of the countries within it aren't really alike and half of them hate each other.
hehe I used to go around thinking scouser was a slur heheTrilbyWill said:
Then again I also started relating "scum" to manchester united before well relating it to scumbag haha
I don't.
I'm somewhat of a Eurocentrist, believing that Europe is by far the best place on Earth to live, as a human being. Northern Europe, to be specific.
Sure, there are things wrong with my country. But they pale in comparison to all the good things.
I'm somewhat of a Eurocentrist, believing that Europe is by far the best place on Earth to live, as a human being. Northern Europe, to be specific.
Sure, there are things wrong with my country. But they pale in comparison to all the good things.
I am an american here and I feel it is necessary for me to interject. We have a very good portion of self loathing and embarrassment as everyone else. That said, the best way to imagine American patriotism is we fucking hate and despise the guy steering the boat, but the boat itself is the best fucking boat in the world and I don't wanna be permanently stuck on another boat for any reason at all.
Bloody hell, I'm surrounded by Northerners....
....Anyway, yes, patriotism. Well, as for the British government yes I do hate it (especially the current government), but then again I hate every government, they're inexorably filled to the brim with dishonest, venal, demagogic, callous, petty, stubborn, megalomaniacal, inept cuntsicles. Though I acknowledge we have a need for them, parliament is a necessary evil that every once in a while shall actually put our tax money to good use. But basically, I'd imagine there aren't too many people in Europe who don't hate the government. I mean I don't really like my country, but I'm used it, I've grown accustomed to it and I acknowledge there are places which are much, much worse. Still, I really don't see the point in patriotism. Why the hell would you be proud of what barely scratches the surface of adequacy? Our economy, society, legislation and culture are always going to be rift with problems and all patriotism seems to possibly serve to do is blind people to them. I don't understand how you can be proud of something so volatile; you never when the things you apparently love about a nation are going to disappear (NHS anyone?). Eh, to me this country is just a big lump of rock inhabited by people who are mostly fuckwits and I'm not going to faom at the mouth in obsequious gratitude just because this lump of rock happens to be in a better condition than a lot of the other lumps of rock out there.
....Anyway, yes, patriotism. Well, as for the British government yes I do hate it (especially the current government), but then again I hate every government, they're inexorably filled to the brim with dishonest, venal, demagogic, callous, petty, stubborn, megalomaniacal, inept cuntsicles. Though I acknowledge we have a need for them, parliament is a necessary evil that every once in a while shall actually put our tax money to good use. But basically, I'd imagine there aren't too many people in Europe who don't hate the government. I mean I don't really like my country, but I'm used it, I've grown accustomed to it and I acknowledge there are places which are much, much worse. Still, I really don't see the point in patriotism. Why the hell would you be proud of what barely scratches the surface of adequacy? Our economy, society, legislation and culture are always going to be rift with problems and all patriotism seems to possibly serve to do is blind people to them. I don't understand how you can be proud of something so volatile; you never when the things you apparently love about a nation are going to disappear (NHS anyone?). Eh, to me this country is just a big lump of rock inhabited by people who are mostly fuckwits and I'm not going to faom at the mouth in obsequious gratitude just because this lump of rock happens to be in a better condition than a lot of the other lumps of rock out there.
Eh, the UK is not a nation that's good at patriotism, even excluding the fact that its currently governed by thieving morons. Example: we already think- nay, know- that our Olympic opening ceremony is going to be a big fuck-off disappointment.
As for myself, I love individuals from countries, and many customs, laws and traditions, but I find feeling any close sense of pride in the deeds of people I don't know who did things on the piece of land I just happen to live on really hard to grasp. I am not an instinctive patriot as I do not believe you can summarise an entire country in the ideals of a law-making elite. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with patriotism (provided it isn't matched with nationalism etc), I just don't get it.
As for myself, I love individuals from countries, and many customs, laws and traditions, but I find feeling any close sense of pride in the deeds of people I don't know who did things on the piece of land I just happen to live on really hard to grasp. I am not an instinctive patriot as I do not believe you can summarise an entire country in the ideals of a law-making elite. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there's anything wrong with patriotism (provided it isn't matched with nationalism etc), I just don't get it.
first of all, mexico is the beard.Matt Oliver said:
anyhoo, i believe we call ourselves Americans because we're from the United States of America. simply saying the united states is an abbreviation. even if it wasn't, what would we call ourselves? Statesians?
Two words: Historical Precedent.
Two more: Slow decline.
I'm Irish and, as an Irish person, I have a genetic predisposition to complain about EVERYTHING! Government? It sucks. Country? It's cold, wet and insular, except when it's too warm and clammy and...and...and...you get my point.
I suppose this can't be the answer more generally, as the entire of Europe cannot have such a genetic predisposition.
I'd also argue with the "Patriotism" of a fair few Americans. A lot of the time this Patriotism is a foil like "I'm not racist but..." or "I have gay friends but...". I mean obviously it's not always the case, and the media we get over here is obviously skewed, but it seems bigging up Patriotic credentials is a cover to attack something. Taking back America, duly elected president stole election or was born elsewhere etc... I could go on and on and on...
And I have the weirdest feeling about the most powerful country in the world constantly telling everyone else how great they are.
Lastly I don't think attacking your country and government is especially strange or specific to Europe. Criticising how your country is run, the rules it is governed by, implicit or explicit, and calling your politicians and compatriots on their stupidity is a form of Patriotism. All good relationships are based on trust and honesty. So I suppose I believe that criticising your country is loving it too. I don't think we (Europeans, not Irish specifically) hate our countries, I think we just love them enough to realise they are far from perfect, and hope our constructive criticism will help it improve.
Two more: Slow decline.
I'm Irish and, as an Irish person, I have a genetic predisposition to complain about EVERYTHING! Government? It sucks. Country? It's cold, wet and insular, except when it's too warm and clammy and...and...and...you get my point.
I suppose this can't be the answer more generally, as the entire of Europe cannot have such a genetic predisposition.
I'd also argue with the "Patriotism" of a fair few Americans. A lot of the time this Patriotism is a foil like "I'm not racist but..." or "I have gay friends but...". I mean obviously it's not always the case, and the media we get over here is obviously skewed, but it seems bigging up Patriotic credentials is a cover to attack something. Taking back America, duly elected president stole election or was born elsewhere etc... I could go on and on and on...
And I have the weirdest feeling about the most powerful country in the world constantly telling everyone else how great they are.
Lastly I don't think attacking your country and government is especially strange or specific to Europe. Criticising how your country is run, the rules it is governed by, implicit or explicit, and calling your politicians and compatriots on their stupidity is a form of Patriotism. All good relationships are based on trust and honesty. So I suppose I believe that criticising your country is loving it too. I don't think we (Europeans, not Irish specifically) hate our countries, I think we just love them enough to realise they are far from perfect, and hope our constructive criticism will help it improve.
The problem with the US having this idea that all of Europe is unpatriotic is the fact that the US has been around for less than 300 years and in Europe we have centuries upon centuries upon centuries upon MILLENEA of history and as such we have gotten to the point that we don't care for allegiances and crap like that anymore. Personally I like Scotland, I'm born and breed Scottish and have lived my entire life here and the only real downside is the "next-door" neighbor...
Just sayin...
the point made here is actually incredibly deep, think of Germany before WW2 the country became exceptionally patriotic and nationalist and people were dragged ("drug" is not another past-tense for drag) out into the street and taken of to camps and such for expressing displeasure in the way the country was heading. So I think its acceptable that when the rest of the world looks and sees that the US may begin heading in the same direction, we are well within our right to say "fuck that, if they start waving red banners with a black eagle in a white circle and start calling themselves "Imperial America", we are gonna nuke em back to the Mesozoic era"Azahul said:
Just sayin...
In Europe we've had far more time to develop our layers of natural cynicism in terms of how we perceive our governments. Sure, you'll have people who're very patriotic, but it won't be expressed in the same way as it is in the US. You'll hardly ever see a flag in the UK (or much of continental Europe, really), we don't play the national anthem before sporting fixtures which aren't international, and so on.
We're just more realistic, or cynical, I suppose, in terms of knowing very well that the government's never going to please anybody and that every nation's done some appalling crap in the past which probably counts as a crime against humanity nowadays, so we've a more balanced view of our history. The US has less history, and thus less time to accumulate appaling crap. (Though I have to admit, you've sprinted ahead in the last fifty years.)
We're just more realistic, or cynical, I suppose, in terms of knowing very well that the government's never going to please anybody and that every nation's done some appalling crap in the past which probably counts as a crime against humanity nowadays, so we've a more balanced view of our history. The US has less history, and thus less time to accumulate appaling crap. (Though I have to admit, you've sprinted ahead in the last fifty years.)
Because the Conservative government is in charge.
My parents warned me about the Conservatives when I was younger, and I always thought they were exaggerating. I thought 'surely they wouldn't hate people without money, or immigrants, or the unemployed, surely any sensible rational reasonable government constructed of human beings wouldn't be so callous and cruel.'
Now I find the reality is even worse. It's not that the Conservatives are callous, or cruel, or even evil. They are incompetent, they are uneducated, and they are utterly detatched from the realities of their situation.
I think I could have handled, at least intellectually, being ruled by complete monsters, but I can't handle being run by buffoons and idiots.
My parents warned me about the Conservatives when I was younger, and I always thought they were exaggerating. I thought 'surely they wouldn't hate people without money, or immigrants, or the unemployed, surely any sensible rational reasonable government constructed of human beings wouldn't be so callous and cruel.'
Now I find the reality is even worse. It's not that the Conservatives are callous, or cruel, or even evil. They are incompetent, they are uneducated, and they are utterly detatched from the realities of their situation.
I think I could have handled, at least intellectually, being ruled by complete monsters, but I can't handle being run by buffoons and idiots.