Australian Christian Lobby Joins the Fight Against R18+ Game Ratings

[Gigano]

I guess religion and it's minions has found a new minority to persecute... When you don't have the power to burn intellectuals or fight against vaccines any more, at least there's new oppressable minorities to add to the list on which the desperate religious need for oppression and condemnation can be vented.

Like other groups even politically weaker than the religious organizations (Atheists, Gays, African AIDS-victims etc.), Gamers are appropriately unfamiliar to the large majority that religions can safely rip on them.

May the non-existing gods have mercy on us, and shelter us from their followers.

You know being an atheist is NOT a 'get away with stereotyping and being a douche' card. In fact, here is my response to your utter lack of understanding with people who you disagree with in such terms.And no, I am not some 'irrational sheep diseased by faith who refuses to face reality instead choosing a security blanket of mythology'. Currently I am fairly undecided. Fuck, if you atheists were not so pig-headed when it comes to expressing your ideologies to the rest of us I might have "converted" long ago. All I ask is for people like you to please respect the opinions of others by not using a form of pseudo-neurology to classify them just to piss others off and pump your own pathetic ego?!!?

Oh right; this was a thread about contemporary Australian politics over the subject of video game classification and censorship wasn't it? Back on topic.

This whole censorship deal is ridiculous. Kids are already "protected" against "dangerous games" by the ratings system itself; are they not? I hate when people start thinking the government should be used as a substitute for parental or personal responsibility. If the parents do not want their kids influenced by these games then they should be paying more attention to their children's activities instead of trying to say -no one- can play them. The same "controversy" could come up with R rated movies, Axe body spray commercials, the internet, play boy magazines, and anything else really. People have to start getting a sense of perspective on these matters.

I care nothing that religion is a lie. I care that it is greatly harmful to a deal of minorities, inspires violence and terror, denies democracy and human rights as the ultimate authority for some ancient scriptures and the "norms" found within. Should I respect a text which says gays are to be stoned? That all who do not submit to the totalitarian god shall burn? I think not.

I have no problem with the (many) moderates who deny all these horrific parts of religion, but then they are not "minions" as I wrote, since they do not follow the dogmas 100% (or even 50% if they've thrown out all the bad stuff in the various religions).

TLDR: Belief in Santa, ethically neutral is totally fine. Belief in a god that loves everyone is fine. Belief in a god that wants gays stoned, ethically despicable, is not fine. I respect the former two, and loathe and despise the latter.

OT: I agree completely, parental responsibility for one's own children, rather than taking the role of dependant clientela of a higher state power tasked with an increasing number of elements in the upbringing of children is always preferable.

 

[matt87_50]

you know your on the right side when you've got the red neck "Christian" nuts on your side...

"Australian Governments have always refused R18+ rated computer games for this reason"

no, again, I'd have to stress its just this one nut!

surely no one is surprised by this in anyway?

you all have "religious" nuts in your countries right?

incidentally, did you here about that U.S family that is going to single handedly "Save the northern territory from sex and violence" through prayer? at least their hearts are in the right place...

 

[brunothepig]

"And remember, even if R18+ games were only sold to adults, they would inevitably find their way into children's hands."

So we should also be banning porn, sex aids and all alcohol? Cause I'm fairly sure they, especially the last one, cause many more problems in teens than all these games that the so called (imaginary) research has pulled up. I'm so very sick of this. Does anyone know of any of these idiots pointing to an actual research paper, or even statistics that are more than ridiculous things like "he played GTA, and he went on a killing spree. They're obviously connected." Correlation does not imply a cause-effect relationship. ARGH! I'm off to play some shooty timesplitters goodness. To relieve my stress and anger.

 

[Treblaine]

Right, Fuck you Australia, Fuck you. You deserve everything you get, you failed country.

Censorship is the ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy.

Australia banning/censoring a few games is nothing....

You do know what the US is trying to do with ACTA (a trade agreement with 34 other countries)?

Do you understand what "contributory copyright infringement" means to the internet?

[That ISPs/web pages will be liable for the actions of users ie no more 'safe harbor' protections.]

The US/South Korean FTA caused a 3 strike rule (3 accusations from a copyright holder and your off the internet) and many other content restrictions (no uploads of music/video, etc) to be introduced by South Korean ISPs.

The drafts of the AFAT treaty are not available to the public (but are to the big industry lobbists) but leaks show it is simiar to the South Korea FTA (in regards to secondary liability).

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100120/0216537828.shtml

I know about ACTA, particularly how it was initiated in SECRET and it had to be done in secret because the majority of the population of those 34 countries are opposed to internet censorship and restrictions. Now the truth is out with any luck this treaty will be stopped or watered down to the point of uselessness.

I know the majority of Brits (and an confident the same applies to USA) are opposed to Censorship in general. So when I say "fuck you Australia" I mean the majority population who support those oppressive policies, you edited out the comment I was replying to whch mentioned the majority of Australians support censorship. However I realise you are Australian and with that consideration I would like to retract my "fuck you" to the apparent minority of Australians who are opposed to oppression and censorship. But as a whole, in general Non, je ne regrette rien.

Also, copyright law is a bit off topic. There is no way copyright infringement can be legal, but refusing to grant an ADULT rating for how games might affect CHILDREN is intolerable bullshit. And bringing up ACTA just seems to be a case of drawing attention away from the poor conduct of your own country without addressing how it directly, two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not going to claim my country is perfect. If a metropolitan police officer takes a dis-liking to me he can just accuse me of terrorism and have me locked up for 42 days, then stop any investigation by claiming it is a state-secret... but at least when it comes to censorship and ratings of media products we at least have some common sense!!!

I'd point you to our government's Byron Report.

 

[Julianking93]

There's no way they'll be able to ban 18 and over video games.

They just make way too much money.

They're already banned, that's the point.

Mature rated games are already banned?

No they aren't. I've talked with plenty of people from Australia who play them all the time.

 

[Dudemeister]

There's no way they'll be able to ban 18 and over video games.

They just make way too much money.

They're already banned, that's the point.

Mature rated games are already banned?

No they aren't. I've talked with plenty of people from Australia who play them all the time.

They must be imports or stripped down versions of the games to get approval from the Australian censors. That's kinda the point of this, the refusal of certian people to approve an 18 rating for games.

 

[Julianking93]

There's no way they'll be able to ban 18 and over video games.

They just make way too much money.

They're already banned, that's the point.

Mature rated games are already banned?

No they aren't. I've talked with plenty of people from Australia who play them all the time.

They must be imports or stripped down versions of the games to get approval from the Australian censors. That's kinda the point of this, the refusal of certian people to approve an 18 rating for games.

Wait, do you think I'm talking about 18 and over only? If that's the case, I knew that.

I'm talking about mature rated games. Like Resident Evil, Assassin's Creed II and MW2. Those are mature games.

I'm not talking about adult only games.

 

[Dudemeister]

There's no way they'll be able to ban 18 and over video games.

They just make way too much money.

They're already banned, that's the point.

Mature rated games are already banned?

No they aren't. I've talked with plenty of people from Australia who play them all the time.

They must be imports or stripped down versions of the games to get approval from the Australian censors. That's kinda the point of this, the refusal of certian people to approve an 18 rating for games.

Wait, do you think I'm talking about 18 and over only? If that's the case, I knew that.

I'm talking about mature rated games. Like Resident Evil, Assassin's Creed II and MW2. Those are mature games.

I'm not talking about adult only games.

I did think that you were talking about 18+ games -_-
Don't tell anyone I thought that.

 

[Julianking93]

There's no way they'll be able to ban 18 and over video games.

They just make way too much money.

They're already banned, that's the point.

Mature rated games are already banned?

No they aren't. I've talked with plenty of people from Australia who play them all the time.

They must be imports or stripped down versions of the games to get approval from the Australian censors. That's kinda the point of this, the refusal of certian people to approve an 18 rating for games.

Wait, do you think I'm talking about 18 and over only? If that's the case, I knew that.

I'm talking about mature rated games. Like Resident Evil, Assassin's Creed II and MW2. Those are mature games.

I'm not talking about adult only games.

I did think that you were talking about 18+ games -_-
Don't tell anyone I thought that.

I won't tell, though someone could easily just, you know...read our discussion

 

[delet]

Oh what a surprise, the Christians hate gaming too...

oh for fuck sakes, stop generalising and realise that every religion has a clear distinction between extremists and normal people.

OT: What a bunch of dumbasses. Forever the politicians will continue thinking that Games are for children and only for children. They just don't understand what a rating means; if we get the R18+ rating, children aren't gonna be fucking playing the perverted and violent games, people over 18 will be; as is their right!

Holy hell, perhaps I should change my original post. So many people so pissed off. Of course not all Christians are evil, idiotic pricks. The problem is these organizations of people pretending to stand for the majority of Christians and standing up for 'Christian' morals to further their own goal. Read ahead and I cleared that matter up with another post.

Spoiler

I'm sure not all Christians believe what this guy is saying, especially on this site, but the problem is that many people did actually buy into crap like this, and many people still do buy into this (Remember 'Frumpy Mom'?)

Sorry if I offended, but the zealots of any religion are damned annoying

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Yeah, these guys piss me off too, but, as a Christian, I'm not about to claim the "I HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THESE GUYS EVEN THOUGH WE SHARE THE SAME RELIGION" card like everybody else here who's afraid of losing their friends on this website.

True, different opinion on this issue, but really, I don't see these guys on the same level as that crotchety old man who thinks the world is in chaos because of this radical and insane idea of "progress" that he thinks should be buried and set alight while simultaneously bringing back the dark ages (i.e., Michael Atkinson). I mean, good lord, even Jack Thompson has a sense of humor about this issue, but anyway...

Really, the ACL seems to have all the good intentions in the world, seeing very violent video games as something to hid behind the curtain when younger children are in the room. And in that sense, they're kind of right. The exposing of this kind of rough and very adult style of media to kids who don't have the maturity to fully comprehend it as fiction isn't something that any country needs. I personally respect anybody who has the minds of their country's children as highest priority.

However, what they don't realize is that this is more or less an adult industry. All of developers who make R18 games have the adult consumer in mind, just like directors who make R and X rated films or adult magazine editors. What about those guys? It's more likely for a kid to to watch a graphic sex scene in a friggin PG13 movie rather than something you would see in a video game. Same can be said for violence. But really, you can't censor everything, and, if you do, then the adults, who have the maturity to make their own personal decisions in life, are the ones getting screwed. Really, their decision is solely based on that kids MIGHT get their hands on R18 games. True, it will happen eventually, but the inevitability doesn't count for every child in Australia. And if the same can be said for everything else, then what's the point of picking on this particular form of adult media?

People just need to get the facts straight.

Spoiler

 

[TechNoFear]

I know the majority of Brits (and an confident the same applies to USA) are opposed to Censorship in general.

Most people in the world are pro censorship if you use terms like 'child porn' and 'terrorist propaganda'.

Most people in the world are against if you use terms like 'free expression' or it impacts them directly.

A political commentator saying 'my gut instinct is game censorship will not have much of an effect on votes' does not mean all Australians want everything censored.

If Lord Mandelson introduces the '3 strikes policy' in April of 2011 and other planned copyright reforms ISPs will react by censoring content (as it is cheaper to ban than police and Mandelson's plan is that the ISPs will bear the costs).

Will you consider the UK a 'failed country' and the 'ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy'?

Also, copyright law is a bit off topic.

ACTAs end result will be internet censorship (the topic of this thread), to avoid any possibility of secondary liability but the ISP.

Stating that Australia is a 'failed country' and the 'ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy' because a religious organisation supports R rated game censorship is also off-topic (and a masive logical fallicy).

but refusing to grant an ADULT rating for how games might affect CHILDREN is intolerable bullshit.

For the 512 time; one minor MP (<13,000 votes last election) is doing this because of a peculiarity of the govt. systems that allows him inordinate power (and the MP sees press in using it), NOT the whole country.

And bringing up ACTA just seems to be a case of drawing attention away from the poor conduct of your own country without addressing how it directly, two wrongs don't make a right.

Banning a few games (which we just import anyway) is not 'poor conduct' by a country.

Invading another country based on the 'sexed-up' report of an uni student is.

I'm not going to claim my country is perfect.

UK also bans video games BTW;
Carmageddon in 1997
Manhunt 2 in 2007 (later overturned)

So you of course will agree with me saying;

"Fuck you UK, Fuck you. You deserve everything you get, you failed country.

Censorship is the ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy."

NOTE:
Green said:
"As for the people in the electorate; in my view, the issue of R18+ for video games won?t have much impact at all. When push comes to shove, a significant portion of the electorate will reject lifting censorship on this sort of thing because most people tend to be rather pro-censorship as a gut instinct."

 

[Treblaine]

Most people in the world are pro censorship if you use terms like 'child porn' and 'terrorist propaganda'.

Most people in the world are against if you use terms like 'free expression' or it impacts them directly.

A political commentator saying 'my gut instinct is game censorship will not have much of an effect on votes' does not mean all Australians want everything censored.

If Lord Mandelson introduces the '3 strikes policy' in April of 2011 and other planned copyright reforms ISPs will react by censoring content (as it is cheaper to ban than police and Mandelson's plan is that the ISPs will bear the costs).

Will you consider the UK a 'failed country' and the 'ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy'?

ACTAs end result will be internet censorship (the topic of this thread), to avoid any possibility of secondary liability but the ISP.

Stating that Australia is a 'failed country' and the 'ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy' because a religious organisation supports R rated game censorship is also off-topic (and a masive logical fallicy).

For the 512 time; one minor MP (<13,000 votes last election) is doing this because of a peculiarity of the govt. systems that allows him inordinate power (and the MP sees press in using it), NOT the whole country.

Banning a few games (which we just import anyway) is not 'poor conduct' by a country.

Invading another country based on the 'sexed-up' report of an uni student is.

UK also bans video games BTW;
Carmageddon in 1997
Manhunt 2 in 2007 (later overturned)

So you of course will agree with me saying;

"Fuck you UK, Fuck you. You deserve everything you get, you failed country.

Censorship is the ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy."

NOTE:
Green said:
"As for the people in the electorate; in my view, the issue of R18+ for video games won?t have much impact at all. When push comes to shove, a significant portion of the electorate will reject lifting censorship on this sort of thing because most people tend to be rather pro-censorship as a gut instinct."

Good point on people's reaction censorship of terrorism and child porn, but the significance of those is they are VERY illegal acts and the materiel directly themselves facilitates further illegal acts.

Not only do video games have nothing to do with terrorism or child abuse but there have nothing to do with anything illegally at all, no crimes were committed in the making in those games, there is no moral, ethical or even logical reason to refuse to grant the 18-rating the censor boards agree they DO deserve, while violent and sexual films are.

My "fuck you" was in response to how the majority would favour censorship of such benign material as M-rated video games for what is apparently entirely down to their prejudice and ignorance. It is one thing to censor GENUINELY dangerous material that is directly related to hideous crimes but censorship of games ( as in "a significant portion of the electorate will reject lifting censorship on this sort of thing" ) is a whole new low.

It is the underhandedness of it all which is unbearable. It is not as if the government has found the most depraved and sickening games and banned them, they have just taken the asinine decision that even if their own censorship board rule that a game is appropriate for adults they simply refuse to allow adults to have it. It is blatant puritanical prejudice that has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with protecting children.

It is blatantly obvious that Atkinson just wants punish gamers because he views their hobby as perverse, and I think if the voters could realise that about him only a bunch of old grannies would vote for him.

It may be one minor MP that is causing all this but he still ultimately influences the Australian government even if he has disproportionate power yet nobody higher up in the government has disciplined him for his unreasonable vetoes and he still retains the support of the electorate... to spite all he is doing. This coming election will be as much a referendum on the morality of the electorate as the future of Australian censorship, it will show where the public's beliefs lie.

"Invading another country based on the 'sexed-up' report of an uni student is"

Do you want to have a discussion about the Iraq War? Seriously, right now do you want to completely change the subject? How about the Suez Crisis instead? The handling of the Palestinian Mandate? The bombing of Dreseden? How about ANYTHING but the ACTUAL Issue at hand!!! Stop trying to change the subject and bring up irrelevant issues, bringing up our illegal invasion of Iraq (which Australia was involved in as well as part of the invading Coalition) is as irrelevant as bringing up war crimes committed my Chile. Again, two wrongs don't make a right.

Same with ACTA. if you have something to say about ACTA, well you can start a new thread about it and link to it in your response, and you are perfectly entitled to say a hollow "fuck you" to the UK, go ahead...

... it's a free country.

 

[wordsmith]

"And remember, even if R18+ games were only sold to adults, they would inevitably find their way into children's hands."

It "inevitably finds it's way into children's hands" because you're inevitably SHIT PARENTS. Protip: You don't want your kid playing those games? Spend time with them, learn what they're playing instead of bleating utter crap when you find that you're being challenged with a media that you know nothing about.

 

[cyro_349]

It may be one minor MP that is causing all this but he still ultimately influences the Australian government even if he has disproportionate power yet nobody higher up in the government has disciplined him for his unreasonable vetoes and he still retains the support of the electorate... to spite all he is doing. This coming election will be as much a referendum on the morality of the electorate as the future of Australian censorship, it will show where the public's beliefs lie.

Ok, this is completely ridiculous. You basically said that if he gets elected Australia supports the ban of R18 games, I will say it again IF he gets elected it will most likely be for other policies, other promises to the voters. If I were to vote for him over other candidates it would be because I believe that the majority of his policies are better than the majority of others.

Not voting for him because of something as irrelivant as the ban on selling R18 video games in Australia is something an ignorant idiot would do (sorry if this offends anyone but it's true) if people vote for the best candidate rather than not voting for someone with a bad idea then we might actually solve some of the real problems the country has.

nobody higher up in the government has disciplined him for his unreasonable vetoes

Um... It isn't really unreasonable, he has a valid reason to vote against R18 video games, even if it is a stupid, old world one. What right does someone higher up in the government have to discipline him for his ideals?

and he still retains the support of the electorate... to spite all he is doing.

You should also know there is only a vote every 4 years, so the people who originally voted for him may not support him any more.

Just to clarify, I don't support the ban on R18 video games, but basing your entire opinion of someone, or even Australia as a whole on one idea is very simple minded. 'pfft, He prefers Apples to Oranges, I won't vote for him'.

 

[TechNoFear]

some blather or other that took a lot of time to type and was not worth the time to read

Just to clarify;

Your opinion that Australia is a 'failed country' and 'the ANTITHESIS of liberty and democracy.' because one political commentator stated an OPINION about 23,000 Australians;

"As for the people in the electorate; in my view, the issue of R18+ for video games won?t have much impact at all. When push comes to shove, a significant portion of the electorate will reject lifting censorship on this sort of thing because most people tend to be rather pro-censorship as a gut instinct."

Doesn't that seem a little extreme to you?

Before you base all your idea on what one politial commentator's opinion about Australian's views on censorship, you should read how Australians ACTUALLY react when they are censored.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.172667-Michael-Atkinson-Steps-Back-From-Pre-Election-Net-Censorship


I suppose with all that misery in your life due to the UKs economy being wracked with stag-flation, corrupt politicians, greedy bankers and new laws to benifit big copyright holders at the expense of citizens.
Not to mention home grown terorists, costly illegal wars and sub-par sportsmen.

So I understand why you feel the need to try to make the UK look better by denigrating other nations for trivial reasons.

Just pointing out that your's is not the mature or constructive response.

If you ever want the UK to improve you should do something about it.

BTW if you really wanted to argue about extreme limits to personal freedom in Australia you should complain about these limits.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/v8-fans-face-slab-limit-at-bathurst-1000-20091006-gjlq.html

 

[Druss the Legend]

This is silly, a mate of mine was ordained a while ago and he plays Left 4 Dead and battlefield quite a bit, setting up lans and stuff in the church building. Thats right! You heard me, I've played Left 4 Dead in a Church with a deacon!

TLDR: Belief in Santa, ethically neutral is totally fine. Belief in a god that loves everyone is fine. Belief in a god that wants gays stoned, ethically despicable, is not fine. I respect the former two, and loathe and despise the latter.

I don't remember the Bible saying that God wanted Gays stoned, i think that people did that, find me the passage stating that God specifically say's "Stone all Gays" and I'll believe you, however that's the old testament angry God, the new testament God is much better.
"Love thy neighbour and thy God"
Thats what i live by.

Also i love the 'No Russian' level on MW2, however i wouldn't do something like that in real life even if my own life depended on it, that's what some people (i.e. extremists) don't understand, that us Gamers can be human, albeit, weird ones at that.

 

[Snidenightshade]

you know your on the right side when you've got the red neck "Christian" nuts on your side...

"Australian Governments have always refused R18+ rated computer games for this reason"

no, again, I'd have to stress its just this one nut!

surely no one is surprised by this in anyway?

you all have "religious" nuts in your countries right?

incidentally, did you here about that U.S family that is going to single handedly "Save the northern territory from sex and violence" through prayer? at least their hearts are in the right place...

governments can be a pain