Bad guys you quickly/later realized weren't actually evil.
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The empire is the best hope of skyrim and the non altmer races overall and if the stormcloacks didn't start whining about Talos there would be a lot less of the patrolling Thalmor instead of causing trouble at home they should have trained elite soldiers for when the Peace stops and the Thalmor needs to be taken care of
as for the topic there was that Warlock in NWN2 although i can't remember his name.
as for the topic there was that Warlock in NWN2 although i can't remember his name.
Ammon Jerro was his namelionsprey said:
What is funny is that Talos = Lorkhan = Shor
Tiber Septim, Martin Septim, Pelinal Whitestrek, the Dragonborn, and The Champion of Cyrodil were all avatars of Lorkhan also, with the Nerevarine also a strong possibility of being an avatar or Lorkhan.
What makes it even more confusing is that Lorkhan is the soul of Sithis which makes the Dragonborn the avatar of the soul of the Dark Brotherhood's leader also, and the avatar of the soul of the Night Mother's husband also.
If you play the protoss missions, they actually say she is essential to diverting the end of the universe.SaneAmongInsane said:
My real problem is that the previews for Heart of the Swarm make it seem like she has genuinely turned over a new leaf and if trying to be good or at least independent and not a world destroying conqueror. I thought it would have been interesting to see Raynor and the other characters forced to ally with a conniving backstabber who has already killed their friends.
Nothing wrong with the way you play it. I refused to join the cannibals in that one quest and was forced to kill them all in self defence. Having done that, one of the quests in my log broke because I couldn't deliver some random supplies to one of the cannibals I had slaughtered. My character in Skyrim was willing to do any quest for some quick cash but he definitely drew the line at cannibalism (shaky morals but morals nonetheless).Charli said:
Caesars Legion. They might have questionable means but they are the best hope for long term stability. They make the wasteland a safe place by eliminating drugs and raiders. They do the same thing Rome did and look what Rome did. People say don't repeat the past but with the nuclear fallout the clock has been reset.
There's a problem here. The Empire isn't caving, it's buying time. It's trying to get the Thalmer off their backs. If Skyrim splits, that's an empire divided. Guess what that means, half the military power they had BEFORE. You know, when they fought the elves AND LOST! If the Thalmer take over completely, Talos being banned will hardly be the worst of the Nord's problems. And believe me, if the rebels win in cannon, the elves WILL take over both the Empire, and Skyrim. Both will just be another piece in the Thalmer dominion.thedo12 said:
Also, they let you join because of plot. They literally do say, multiple times, that all the other races should get out of Skyrim, they force the Dark Elves into the slums, won't lift a finger to defend non-Nords. Yeah, they're racist.
Stormcloaks in Skyrim.
A large portion of fans of the game continue to think the Empire are the good guys, despite going turncoat on Hammerfell, outlawing the worship of Talos whilst allowing Thalmor to persecute citizens of the Empire that worship Talos, and executing Nords of Skyrim without trial.
The Stormcloaks are xenophobic rebels, but they are without question the good guys. Ulfic Stormcloak is considered a power-hungry bad guy, but he stands for tradition, free worship, and a free Skyrim.
Whether Skyrim is better able to defend itself from Thalmor domination by remaining with the Empire or becoming independent is entirely speculative. Theoretically the Thalmor would have to conquer Cyrodiil and/or Hammerfell to launch an invasion of Skyrim, and if they did this there is nothing that says Skyrim would remain neutral just because it seceded from the Empire. Mutual benefit alone would dictate that Hammerfell and Skyrim would aid Cyrodiil from a Dominion invasion.
In the end the society the Stormcloaks are promoting is a far better alternative than an Empire controlled Skyrim. A closed but free worshipping society is of far more value than one that would allow its enemies to stamp out religion, execute people without trial, and lacks the resolve to protect the rights of its citizens.
The Empire in the time of Morrowind banned slavery and was accomodating to all the religions of all the provinces. The Empire of Oblivion rallied the province to stop the hellspawn of Mehrunes Dagon from total destruction of Nirn. The Empire in Skyrim is not even a shell of its former glory. It enforces rules that go contrary to a doctrine of peaceful co-existence, it allows the Dominion's prejudices and hatred to control their policy.
Stormcloaks. Good guys.
A large portion of fans of the game continue to think the Empire are the good guys, despite going turncoat on Hammerfell, outlawing the worship of Talos whilst allowing Thalmor to persecute citizens of the Empire that worship Talos, and executing Nords of Skyrim without trial.
The Stormcloaks are xenophobic rebels, but they are without question the good guys. Ulfic Stormcloak is considered a power-hungry bad guy, but he stands for tradition, free worship, and a free Skyrim.
Whether Skyrim is better able to defend itself from Thalmor domination by remaining with the Empire or becoming independent is entirely speculative. Theoretically the Thalmor would have to conquer Cyrodiil and/or Hammerfell to launch an invasion of Skyrim, and if they did this there is nothing that says Skyrim would remain neutral just because it seceded from the Empire. Mutual benefit alone would dictate that Hammerfell and Skyrim would aid Cyrodiil from a Dominion invasion.
In the end the society the Stormcloaks are promoting is a far better alternative than an Empire controlled Skyrim. A closed but free worshipping society is of far more value than one that would allow its enemies to stamp out religion, execute people without trial, and lacks the resolve to protect the rights of its citizens.
The Empire in the time of Morrowind banned slavery and was accomodating to all the religions of all the provinces. The Empire of Oblivion rallied the province to stop the hellspawn of Mehrunes Dagon from total destruction of Nirn. The Empire in Skyrim is not even a shell of its former glory. It enforces rules that go contrary to a doctrine of peaceful co-existence, it allows the Dominion's prejudices and hatred to control their policy.
Stormcloaks. Good guys.
I thought emperor Gestahl was going to be the main villain of FF6 then- >SURPRISE< - it turns out to be his lunatic court jester. Turns out compared to Kefka he was almost decent.
I kind of thought the exact opposite would happen. I thought Kefka was just stupid and a bit overzealous, not evil, up until the incident on the floating continent, and that he would either be betrayed by Gestahl or have some epiphany and leave his evil master to join the side of good and redeem himself by killing the evil emperor.
Christ, was I wrong XD
I kind of thought the exact opposite would happen. I thought Kefka was just stupid and a bit overzealous, not evil, up until the incident on the floating continent, and that he would either be betrayed by Gestahl or have some epiphany and leave his evil master to join the side of good and redeem himself by killing the evil emperor.
Christ, was I wrong XD
Now keep in mind that I've only played Half-life 2, but I'd have to say Dr. Breen. I don't know what he was like in the original, but in #2 he seemed to legitimately think that what he was doing was going to help us in the long run. Did he seem a bit misguided and naive that the alien race (can't remember their name) wouldn't mess us up later on? In my mind, yes. And he was kind of a dick to Gordon personally. But I think in the grand scheme of things, he was trying to keep things peaceful between us and the aliens who seemed to have the upper hand.
Probably been mentioned, but I really don't want to read through 5 pages of stuff to see if it has.
Saren from Mass Effect.
Saren from Mass Effect.
On the surface, he seems to be bad, but if you question him when you get the opportunity and sow the seeds of doubt in his mind, you find out that he's doing what he's doing to try and save the races of the galaxy, not destroy them. Ultimately though, despite his efforts, he ends up indoctrinated by Sovereign, though depending on how you play he can come to realise this at the last.
He wasn't in the first one, he's only been in HL2. Whether or not his motivations for playing the middle-man between humanity and the Combine are selfish or self-less is, as far as I'm aware, completely up for debate in the fanbase.TheKruzdawg said:
I have no idea if this has been mentioned, but Darth Revan. He attacked the Republic, conquered planets, trained dozens maybe even hundreds of Sith, and seemed evil. Hell, even by the end of KOTOR, the original Revan seemed evil.
Then in KOTOR2 we learn that Revan wasn't destroying planetary defenses. Which seems odd. In fact, the only planet to be completely devastated was Taris which was done by Darth Malak. So what was going on?
It turns out that Revan was trying to conquer the Republic to save it. He had met the Emperor of the Secret Empire and realizing that the Republic would never repel an attack from this Empire, he betrayed the Emperor (he had sworn loyalty to the Empire) and used the Star Forge to amass his own army. Everything he did was to save the Republic and defeat the Emperor. Even after his victory over Malak, he eventually traveled into the outer galaxy to fight the Emperor. He lost and was held prisoner for hundreds of years, but never broke. Revan was the Hero not the villain.
Then in KOTOR2 we learn that Revan wasn't destroying planetary defenses. Which seems odd. In fact, the only planet to be completely devastated was Taris which was done by Darth Malak. So what was going on?
It turns out that Revan was trying to conquer the Republic to save it. He had met the Emperor of the Secret Empire and realizing that the Republic would never repel an attack from this Empire, he betrayed the Emperor (he had sworn loyalty to the Empire) and used the Star Forge to amass his own army. Everything he did was to save the Republic and defeat the Emperor. Even after his victory over Malak, he eventually traveled into the outer galaxy to fight the Emperor. He lost and was held prisoner for hundreds of years, but never broke. Revan was the Hero not the villain.
You're confusing gameplay with lore, of course the Stormcloaks let you join in the game because Bethesda aren't just going to lock away an entire segment of the plot just because the player picked a certain race because sacrificing gameplay for story is rarely a good plan.thedo12 said:
I think his intentions were to draw out the last breath of the human race as long as posible. Just so that the people who survived the 11 hour war could keep living. If it wasn't for him everyone would have died. Anyone with half a brain knew that the aliens won the moment they found Earth. And sense (I think) the only reason the aliens kept us around was becasue of our scientist (Portal and teleportation tech and all, something they apparently lack) the Rebels probably made the Combine very impatient with us humans. Which was bad news sense Breen wanted to relations with the Combine good.TheKruzdawg said:
Hells to the yes.
In Skyrim the Empire is trying to help keep the dominion out of Skyrim, and Ulfric was imprisoned in the first place for leading a genocidal march against the people who are now the Forsworn.
Ulfric Stormcloak was the real bad guy in the Civil War quests. He's a bad, bad man and as much as he reminds me of Ned Stark aesthetically, when I took off his head I was happy.
Also on the topic of Skyrim, Paarthurnax seems like maybe he was a bad guy as well, sure he was helping you stop the end of the world, but only so that he could then try and rule it.
In Skyrim the Empire is trying to help keep the dominion out of Skyrim, and Ulfric was imprisoned in the first place for leading a genocidal march against the people who are now the Forsworn.
Ulfric Stormcloak was the real bad guy in the Civil War quests. He's a bad, bad man and as much as he reminds me of Ned Stark aesthetically, when I took off his head I was happy.
Also on the topic of Skyrim, Paarthurnax seems like maybe he was a bad guy as well, sure he was helping you stop the end of the world, but only so that he could then try and rule it.
He wasn't saying that monologue to be evil. He was actually right. If people didn't follow what he told them to do, they would die. If he didn't rule Albion, it would be destroyed. But not by his hand. So he sounded evil when you saw him say all that, but only because Theresa was being a shrewd ***** and not giving you the full story. When you think about the challenge he faced... he's still a total dick, sure. But he's not evil.Zayle79 said:
Which is why I could never bring myself to execute him.
OT: Despite being the overall antagonist, Dane Vogel of Saint's Row 2 wasn't a bad guy. He was an arsehole perfectly willing to let the Saints and the other gangs destroy themselves for his own ends, but he only wanted to get rid of the gang activity in Stillwater and make it a nicer place to live.
Cause even if you're a total psychopath, like your character is, you have to admit: The gangs ruling Stillwater kind of fucked things up for anyone that wasn't a member of one of them.
Ulfric Stormcloak.
When your biggest insult is 'racist,' (which really isn't evil at all, just not very nice depending on how its played) whereas the other guys tried to cut off your head because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to resort to force from keeping entire provinces from breaking off from their little group it's blatantly obvious who the good guys are.
Those uppity Elves need a boot up their rear ends anyways, and Ulfric along with his trusty sidekick bear-hat-guy will definitely deliver.
Can't believe people in this thread actually defend the falmer. Fun fact: The snow elves started it by trying to genocide the nords first. They got what they deserved.
When your biggest insult is 'racist,' (which really isn't evil at all, just not very nice depending on how its played) whereas the other guys tried to cut off your head because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time and have to resort to force from keeping entire provinces from breaking off from their little group it's blatantly obvious who the good guys are.
Those uppity Elves need a boot up their rear ends anyways, and Ulfric along with his trusty sidekick bear-hat-guy will definitely deliver.
Can't believe people in this thread actually defend the falmer. Fun fact: The snow elves started it by trying to genocide the nords first. They got what they deserved.
Big Boss, The Boss and Ocelot. In the end, only The Patriots were evil. Even Zero wasn't really bad. He had an idea that backfired. There's a lot of gray morality in MGS. I like that.Cyrus Hanley said:
Snape is not evil, and I'll tell you why. He's part of the triumverate of the Potter series, which focuses on half-magical born males who grew up in abusive situations and how they dealt with it.pffh said:Sorry but Snape is evil. If Harry had not been the son of a woman that Snape had some sort of psychotic obsession over you think he would have lifted a finger to help him? I doubt it. Remember during Voldermorts first rise he willingly joined the death eaters and according to Rowling if Lily hadn't been killed by Voldemort Snape would have been a loyal Death eater to the end.Urgh76 said:
Can't really call him a game character, but he was in a few.
Always.
Example 1: Voldemort. Mother is witch, father is muggle. Father leaves mother, mother dies of broken heart. Boy ends up in orphanage where he is mistreated because he's misunderstood. Turns evil.
Example 2: Harry. Mother is muggle-born, father is wizard. Parents die, left with aunt and uncle. Aunt and Uncle are emotionally and physically abusive because uncle is afraid and aunt is still jealous of her sister. Remains good.
Example 3: Snape. Mother is witch, father is muggle. Father is abusive to mother and both parents are neglectful of child. Constantly teeters between desire for love (Lily) and acceptance (Death Eaters). He is the inherently neutral character, the middle ground, the one on whom it all balanced. Harry was only able to succeed because of Snape's interference. So, not evil. In order for it to work, he couldn't be evil.
For my own curiosity, not because I'm calling zombie-bullsh*t, where did Rowling say he would have remained a loyal Death Eater?
OT: Teryn Loghain. Was expecting him to be stereotypical power-hungry tyrannical villain. Was surprised, pleasantly, by the depth of his character. He was a man undone by paranoia, undone by himself. It's beautifully tragic, which is my favorite kind.