Ballad (?) of an ex-goth

[Jason Danger Keyes]

I like to dress up when I play shows (I'm in a metal band) with black nails and clothes and stuff, but it's just for fun. The whole goth prospect seemed cool in high school when i was determined that 'nobody understood me' but i grew out of that pretty quick. 'Nobody understands me' just seemed like a cheap excuse for not bothering to be understood.

 

[Emilie Diabolica]

uh... why did KneeLord get banned for stating a fact that most people dont realise?

 

[Shadowed Intent]

uh... why did KneeLord get banned for stating a fact that most people dont realise?

Yeah I was pretty confused by that myself.

 

[Legion]

You're kinda privileging music as an element without a good reason: goth was always more than the music. Music was probably the key element in turning goth subculture into a coherent whole, but that doesn't mean one needs to listen to goth music to be goth--one could, for instance, be into certain types of classical music.

Well actually, that's not the case. You see, the term "Goth" in the context we now see it was first used to simply describe the bands of the culture, before it had even formed. I agree that it's more than the music, but without it the culture would not exist.

You do have to listen to the music to be a Goth really, but that doesn't mean that's all you have to like. If you didn't like it then there's not really any reason to consider yourself one as you won't like the nightclubs, conventions or events because the music plays a prominent part of them.

uh... why did KneeLord get banned for stating a fact that most people dont realise?

Yeah I was pretty confused by that myself.

He was banned of his own request. He created a post saying "goodbye" yesterday, it would seem he doesn't want to tempt himself to come back.

 

[Legion]

You're kinda privileging music as an element without a good reason: goth was always more than the music. Music was probably the key element in turning goth subculture into a coherent whole, but that doesn't mean one needs to listen to goth music to be goth--one could, for instance, be into certain types of classical music.

Well actually, that's not the case. You see, the term "Goth" in the context we now see it was first used to simply describe the bands of the culture, before it had even formed.

But the term 'gothic' referred to literature before that, a body of literature that the music drew almost all its themes from.

I agree that it's more than the music, but without it the culture would not exist.

True, but without the literature, the music would not exist.

You do have to listen to the music to be a Goth really, but that doesn't mean that's all you have to like. If you didn't like it then there's not really any reason to consider yourself one as you won't like the nightclubs, conventions or events because the music plays a prominent part of them.

Well, that's more a judgment call on your part isn't it, the idea that without the "nightclubs, conventions or events" there's no reason to consider one's self goth? What about the literature, the fashion, and the film?

That isn't what I said. I am just saying that the music is just as important as anything else. The events I mentioned are the kinds of things Goth's do to socialise with other Goth's (beyond the normal things) my point was that you wouldn't want to be a part of it if you hated the music.

Imagine going up to a group of four punks and asking them what their favourite band is:

One of them says The Ramones.
The second says The Sex Pistols
The third says No FX
The fourth says Britney Spears.

The first words that would come to pretty much everyone's mind is "what kind of punk are you!?". The music is just as much a part of it as the rest.

The clothing is more of a way of telling that they are Goth's, the music, literature, and attitude is what makes them one. The same way wearing an Ice Hockey shirt doesn't make you a player/fan but but it identifies you as one.

 

[Legion]

Don't you think you're slighting the importance of fashion in goth by comparing it to just putting on a hockey sweater? For you the fashion might only be about identification, but that's not true of everyone.

I don't see it as just identification as previously stated. I was making an example, it wasn't intended completely literally. It doesn't make much sense to completely ignore what somebody stated earlier in order to make a point:

That isn't what I said. I am just saying that the music is just as important as anything else.

The clothing is more of a way of telling that they are Goth's.

I wasn't suggesting that the only reason Goth's might dress the way they do is purely for identification because that would be ridiculous, especially considering how expensive gothic clothing is.

What I meant was that the clothing in relation to the culture itself is not what's important. Not everyone can afford fancy gothic clothing, or maybe their regular lives don't allow for it. If they listened to the music and had the same kind of mindset a lot of Goth's have then they could still be considered one.

Whereas a rich person who can afford all the clothes they like but has no clue who 'Siouxsie And The Banshees' are or what a 'subculture' is, but really likes vampires is not really a Goth. At least, not to most Goth's.

 

[laikenf]

I know lots of goths. With only a few exceptions, a very narcissistic bunch. Goth is the only youth movement (well okay it used to be youth movement, some of them are pretty old now) that is 100% superficial. No statement, no purpose, just pure unadulterated "oh don't I look pretty dancing around to Skinny Puppy in my black clothing". I've flirted with the scene a little but the vapid superficiality at the core of it stops me getting deeply involved.

Funny that you mention Skinny Puppy, they hated the goth scene and hated when their music was labeled as such. There are some pretty cool old interviews from the 80's on youtube, check'em out.

 

[Skuffyshootster]

I would probably care more if you were gay and named Tony.
Also if your story began with a "The."

Anyway, no, I was never "goth."
I wore/wear black exclusively because I like the color, and I occasionally wear make up, but that's as close as I get.

I can't stand goth/emo people. They get on my nerves, but I do wear black shirts almost every day. It goes with everything and doesn't draw to much attention. But why do you wear make-up?

 

[ToMegaTherion]

I love gothic literature, movies and the music, but would I call myself goth? Not really, because labels are for cans not people.

 

[Legion]

I would probably care more if you were gay and named Tony.
Also if your story began with a "The."

Anyway, no, I was never "goth."
I wore/wear black exclusively because I like the color, and I occasionally wear make up, but that's as close as I get.

I can't stand goth/emo people. They get on my nerves, but I do wear black shirts almost every day. It goes with everything and doesn't draw to much attention. But why do you wear make-up?

Congratulations on being open minded.

I also imagine the answer would be "because I want to, what difference does it make to you?"

I love gothic literature, movies and the music, but would I call myself goth? Not really, because labels are for cans not people.

*sighs* This comment always bugs me; Goth is a sub-culture not a "label", for some people it's a lifestyle.

I also assume by the 'music' you mean bands not mentioned in your profile, because to put it bluntly, none of those are Goth in any shape or form.

 

[Spacelord]

I, myself, am a recovering metalhead. I'm fine now, thank you for asking.

[small]sometimes when i'm alone i listen to Hammerfall.[/small]

 

[NIHILHATE]

I also assume by the 'music' you mean bands not mentioned in your profile, because to put it bluntly, none of those are Goth in any shape or form.

Does goth not encourage individuality? Bauhaus and Sisters of mercy are ace, but surely you wouldn't want to stick to one genre your whole life? That's what (gasp) posers do, friend. The metalheads are the same, just go on youtube and check out the comments on a cannibal corpse video...

 

[Legion]

I also assume by the 'music' you mean bands not mentioned in your profile, because to put it bluntly, none of those are Goth in any shape or form.

Does goth not encourage individuality? Bauhaus and Sisters of mercy are ace, but surely you wouldn't want to stick to one genre your whole life? That's what (gasp) posers do, friend. The metalheads are the same, just go on youtube and check out the comments on a cannibal corpse video...

If you read my previous comments you will see I have said exactly the same thing. I don't listen to only Goth music, in fact I listen to much more Industrial and 'Cyber-Goth' music than I do Bauhaus and the like.

I only commented on the bands in the profile because they are the bands most commonly thought of by non-Goth's to be Goth bands: Marilyn Manson etc. I was not criticising the fact he listens to them, I was just wondering if they were the bands he considered to be Goth.

 

[NIHILHATE]

Fair enough mate. Sorry for not paying attention, hehe. Btw sorry about replying, the thingy wasn't letting me quote (i'm new to this).

 

[ToMegaTherion]

I would probably care more if you were gay and named Tony.
Also if your story began with a "The."

Anyway, no, I was never "goth."
I wore/wear black exclusively because I like the color, and I occasionally wear make up, but that's as close as I get.

I can't stand goth/emo people. They get on my nerves, but I do wear black shirts almost every day. It goes with everything and doesn't draw to much attention. But why do you wear make-up?

Congratulations on being open minded.

I also imagine the answer would be "because I want to, what difference does it make to you?"

I love gothic literature, movies and the music, but would I call myself goth? Not really, because labels are for cans not people.

*sighs* This comment always bugs me; Goth is a sub-culture not a "label", for some people it's a lifestyle.

I also assume by the 'music' you mean bands not mentioned in your profile, because to put it bluntly, none of those are Goth in any shape or form.

Ok, sorry for the missunderstanding. I don't want to label my self as "goth" because There's som much that I am, that isn't "goth" and I had a really bad day, so it might have sounded more hostile than it was intended. And btw... The music in my profile in my profile is just the tip of the iceberg, so you can't judge me by that. For exampel, I love Bauhaus, Sisters Of mercy, blutengel, crüxshadows, fields of the nephilim and The cure

But to make myself clear, I hate steretopypes and even if I love the gothic culture I don't want to be judged as a goth, metalhead or an emo, but as a person.

 

[Arquinsiel]

I know lots of goths. With only a few exceptions, a very narcissistic bunch. Goth is the only youth movement (well okay it used to be youth movement, some of them are pretty old now) that is 100% superficial. No statement, no purpose, just pure unadulterated "oh don't I look pretty dancing around to Skinny Puppy in my black clothing". I've flirted with the scene a little but the vapid superficiality at the core of it stops me getting deeply involved.

I think you missed the point by a large margin. The Goth movement grew out of dissillusionment at the death of Punk in the early eighties and is essentially an expression of distaste with the inneffectual nature of anarchism as a method of protest for social change through the medium of hedonism. It's long since abandoned those roots but in the long run it's no more or less superficial than any "youth movement" that has ever existed. Also: vapid vapid vapid WOOO!!!! (Were you posting on Somethingawful say... five years ago?).

 

[Legion]

Ok, sorry for the missunderstanding. I don't want to label my self as "goth" because There's som much that I am, that isn't "goth" and I had a really bad day, so it might have sounded more hostile than it was intended. And btw... The music in my profile in my profile is just the tip of the iceberg, so you can't judge me by that. For exampel, I love Bauhaus, Sisters Of mercy, blutengel, crüxshadows, fields of the nephilim and The cure

But to make myself clear, I hate steretopypes and even if I love the gothic culture I don't want to be judged as a goth, metalhead or an emo, but as a person.

Fair enough, I get what you mean. It is somewhat annoying that people automatically put people into neat little boxes as soon as they say they are a Punk, Goth, Emo etc.

I also don't consider myself a Goth. Although I have traits that are similar (music, to some extent the clothing) I don't want non-goth's to put me into their idea of what a Goth is and judge me based upon that rather than who I am.

Fair enough mate. Sorry for not paying attention, hehe. Btw sorry about replying, the thingy wasn't letting me quote (i'm new to this).

No probs, it's the problem with online discussions, it's so easy to miss things out, I have probably come across a lot more hostile in this thread than I intended.

I think you missed the point by a large margin. The Goth movement grew out of dissillusionment at the death of Punk in the early eighties and is essentially an expression of distaste with the inneffectual nature of anarchism as a method of protest for social change through the medium of hedonism. It's long since abandoned those roots but in the long run it's no more or less superficial than any "youth movement" that has ever existed.

Very well put.

 

[BonsaiK]

I know lots of goths. With only a few exceptions, a very narcissistic bunch. Goth is the only youth movement (well okay it used to be youth movement, some of them are pretty old now) that is 100% superficial. No statement, no purpose, just pure unadulterated "oh don't I look pretty dancing around to Skinny Puppy in my black clothing". I've flirted with the scene a little but the vapid superficiality at the core of it stops me getting deeply involved.

I think you missed the point by a large margin. The Goth movement grew out of dissillusionment at the death of Punk in the early eighties and is essentially an expression of distaste with the inneffectual nature of anarchism as a method of protest for social change through the medium of hedonism. It's long since abandoned those roots but in the long run it's no more or less superficial than any "youth movement" that has ever existed. Also: vapid vapid vapid WOOO!!!! (Were you posting on Somethingawful say... five years ago?).

What you are saying about the roots of "goth" music is correct, but keep in mind that most of those original bands didn't consider themselves "goth" anyway and in fact hated the term (and still do). But I agree that "goth" means something different now to what it did back then.

I have no idea what you're talking about with the "vapid" reference. And no I don't post or even look at SA, never have and probably never will.