Barack Obama and Socialism

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Mistah Kurtz

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Cheeze_Pavilion post=18.74687.846217 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846179 said:
Police officers have a greater benefit from their cost as they vastly cut down on the number of hard working people having their wealth stolen by people who don't want to work as hard and would rather steal from rich people then try to become rich themselves.
Don't most thieves rob poor people, though?
Only the dumb ones.
Are you suggesting people are going to start investing in land because it can't be stolen? Jesus christ you're grasping at straws if you honestly believe that capitalism inevitably leads to everyone taking their money out of their economy and spending it all on land. This is nonsense.
You didn't say Capitalism, you said:


Maybe everyone should be responsible for their own choices. Seems a lot simpler.
Capitalism is characterized by various means of making you even *less* responsible for your own choices, like say, the corporate veil: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil

I think you need to learn a bit more about how Capitalism really works before you go talking about it--you're grossly mischaracterizing what it really is.
Why exactly is that relevant?
Imitation Saccharin post=18.74687.846230 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846203 said:
The day a holiday takes place on is irrelevant to the meaning of the occasion.
It's not like we're supposed to be celebrating anyone's birthday as the entire message behind the holiday.

Because that would just make you look silly.
Have you actually read the bible? Nowhere does it gives Jesus's birthday. Anywhere. It HINTS at it (We know it wasn't winter), but it never says. It would be more LOGICAL to hold the holiday in the spring or summer, but Christmas is not supposed to be Jesus's birthday. It's simply the day christians dedicate to celebrating the birth of Christ. The day it takes place is irrelevant, and intelligent Christians will admit that the only reason it's celebrated on that particular day is tradition. This does not divert meaning from the holiday in any way.
 

Trace2010

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Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846219 said:
Trace2010 post=18.74687.846204 said:
1) Communism = Socialism + Human Nature.

2) Whether or not you agree that a country can live and thrive under this system tells a lot about your own personal concepts of the word "fairness". I will use the American education system as an example.

To many, "fairness" means to hold all people under the same standard and let them be the ones to strive toward those goals. To argue that the standard of fairness was not set up by people like you (or you were not part of this country at the time of the standard's inception) is meaningless. This is the system that you live in, and you should play by its rules (when in Rome...etc.) in order to have a happier and more fullfilling life. To people who live and thrive under this system, "life is not fair"....but that is what personal resiliency and determination are for.

Yet a new school of thought evolved from within, near the end of the 1960's. Ironically, it was inspired from the Civil Rights' Movement. Though it was kept out of organized government, it came within the field of education. The old standards of "fairness" were obliterated when people started to question or challenge the above standards as the "way". People began to interpret fairness as "give everyone what they need"- or in its precise case...give every student what they need. In essence, this was the most racist argument of all (that students of one particular racial and ethnic type were intellectually incapable of meeting the standards in the "white man's world"). All of a sudden, "trivial" :) things like deadlines, projects, traditional grooming and dress, prayer, facts, grading rules, rubrics, even attendance...it all became instantaneously challenged by people under the impression that it would give students a better life, and a better chance at opportunity. In place of facts and basic computational reasoning, higher order thinking, applied knowledge, student centered learning...all were by-productsof that system. Ironically, as far as motivating students...this approach was working.

****SIDE NOTE: However, not all standards for teachers, schools, states, and students were equal. G.W. Bush, in an effort to promote equality in education, held an open forum, and met with political leaders of almost every society within America. They developed the rubric of and in the end, No Child Left Behind was unleashed on the world. This has completely fucked the education system in America, not only because the new standard of fairness (sub-standard as it may be) has been initiated, but also because now the student can be in complete control of the SUCCESS of said educational system simply by passing or failing a multiple choice test.******

The secondary problem with said system is it immediately backfired once you graduated high school. Many of the students that are catered to in schools end up having to take remedial courses after failing to pass standard collegiate entrance exams- placing cost as more of a deterrent to higher education- elites know this. Many more students now graduate from high school and enter the working world...subsequently losing their first job because nobody ever told them that they needed to be places on time, or projects would be needed to be completed by a specific deadline, you actually need to interact with other humans, etc. After several
jobs, a person gets a negative reference list, and then (barring imagination and luck), get plastered into either a dead end job or out of the workforce entirely.

3) Although I do not quite share pillowfire's "enthusiasm" for Socialistic policies, I must agree with his above statement: no one can point to a country that ended in revolution, adopted Socialism as its guiding light, and stayed the course into a communal society. In the end, human nature prevailed, and without any incentive to be better (a better worker, a better teacher, a better scientist, a better inventor, etc.) than the rest, all the opportunities for generating wealth failed, and in the end, government took the responsibility upon itself to create incentive. Naturally, it is cheaper and easier for government to create negative incentive ("Do this/succeed in this/ Achieve this or I'll kill you and send your family the bill for the bullet"), then positive incentive.

Even in countries with strong senses of nationalism and racial unity/uniformity cannot inspire their own people to always take care of the commune- in the end, humankind will ultimately look out for "number one"- in the case of many, number one includes themselves and their families. This is NOT a bad thing...indeed, it is the greatest builder of wealth, ideas, and knowledge. To say that the United States is a better breeding ground for socialism than any other country (when no three countries on earth boast as many languages and dialects as spoken on Manhatten Island) is absurd. America embraces too many political, cultural, and religious differences to place any political system on its people other than a Democratic Republic. To invite Socialism will invite many other problems within the many races of American society (I do not have the time to list them). AND don't argue with me that that is only what the (english/scottish/welsh/german/italian/czech/do I really need to name them all?) would do. If you would like to see what African tribes are doing...look into Darfur.

The main reason why Socialism has never worked in the world is human nature- there are simply too many takers- too many people who want things for free, and have a sense of entitlement simply for living on the planet and breathing, successfully breeding, or waking up in the morning. They feed on the media and their need to justify every little discomfort or pain in their lives as the fault of society, and continue to state that "if I had this (or that), my life would be better". Then when government passes said program, they sign up...AND ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T NECESSARILY NEED SAID GOVERNMENT PROGRAM BUT COULD POCKET THE SPARE CHANGE. After all, fair is fair, right?

The point of Capitalism is: If you can identify exactly it is what you want, we already have the perfect system for you to go out there and get it/make it happen. You simply have to be just a little bit better/or more determined/or more clever than the next guy. The flip side of this coin is this: In order to have equal opportunity to succeed, every American must also have the EQUAL OPPORTUNITY TO FAIL.
/ fucking thread.
Quote the person who is arguing about Christmas in this thread??? Did I just miss something back there??? ;)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
 

Mistah Kurtz

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Trace2010 post=18.74687.846243 said:
Quote the person who is arguing about Christmas in this thread??? Did I just miss something back there??? ;)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Yeah, I argued that the root of this generation becoming a bunch of Marxists with entitlement issues might be the self esteem movement of telling children that everyone is special and that everybody wins, even if they lose - everyone gets a trophy - basically what you talked about in your post. Kids take these ideas into adulthood and they develop into Marxist attitudes about being entitled to the fruits of other people's labor. Someone then moronically attempted to argue that kids don't actually bring ideas instilled into them as children into adulthood and tried to reason this by pointing out that atheists often celebrate the christmas ceremony of gift-giving even if they don't believe in Jesus, which is obviously not a very good argument.
 

Mistah Kurtz

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Cheeze_Pavilion post=18.74687.846261 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846219 said:
Trace2010 post=18.74687.846204 said:
3) Although I do not quite share pillowfire's "enthusiasm" for Socialistic policies, I must agree with his above statement: no one can point to a country that ended in revolution, adopted Socialism as its guiding light, and stayed the course into a communal society.
/ fucking thread.
Wait, Obama is talking about a revolution before adopting 'Socialism'? I think you're confusing him with Tracy Chapman.
He's not arguing against Obama, he's arguing against socialism. Pay attention.
 

Ravatar

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Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846241 said:
Cheeze_Pavilion post=18.74687.846217 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846179 said:
Police officers have a greater benefit from their cost as they vastly cut down on the number of hard working people having their wealth stolen by people who don't want to work as hard and would rather steal from rich people then try to become rich themselves.
Don't most thieves rob poor people, though?
Only the dumb ones.
Not true, the average thief would probably rather steal from the poor as their victims receive less attention and cooperation from law enforcement.
 

Mistah Kurtz

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Ravatar post=18.74687.846275 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846241 said:
Cheeze_Pavilion post=18.74687.846217 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846179 said:
Police officers have a greater benefit from their cost as they vastly cut down on the number of hard working people having their wealth stolen by people who don't want to work as hard and would rather steal from rich people then try to become rich themselves.
Don't most thieves rob poor people, though?
Only the dumb ones.
Not true, the average thief would probably rather steal from the poor as their victims receive less attention and cooperation from law enforcement.
Well, the average thief is a fucking idiot that was too stupid to go to school. Stealing from rich people is the way to go - if you steal from poor people you have to do it a bunch of times and you risk getting caught more. If you steal from a rich person, you could live off one good haul for a long fuckin time.

Edit: Think of the mob - the ultimate thieves. They didn't steal from poor people - mobsters weren't stealing wallets off of poor people in their neighborhood - often they were giving them shit to get the people on their side. They stole from rich people, corporations, governments, banks, businesses - the real money.
 

Trace2010

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Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846264 said:
Trace2010 post=18.74687.846243 said:
Quote the person who is arguing about Christmas in this thread??? Did I just miss something back there??? ;)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Yeah, I argued that the root of this generation becoming a bunch of Marxists with entitlement issues might be the self esteem movement of telling children that everyone is special and that everybody wins, even if they lose - everyone gets a trophy - basically what you talked about in your post. Kids take these ideas into adulthood and they develop into Marxist attitudes about being entitled to the fruits of other people's labor. Someone then moronically attempted to argue that kids don't actually bring ideas instilled into them as children into adulthood and tried to reason this by pointing out that atheists often celebrate the christmas ceremony of gift-giving even if they don't believe in Jesus, which is obviously not a very good argument.
To add or detract from your argument, I'm not sure which- both Jews and Muslims (only when Ramadan falls around the same time as Christmas)-will give gifts as well, though neither believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ (Jews consider Him a false prophet, Muslims consider Him a prophet on the level of Mohammed).
 

Bourne Endeavor

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Good morning blues post=18.74687.842545 said:
Socialism doesn't mean "no capitalism" or "no incentive to work." Socialism means that those who profit most from society are responsible for its maintenance, and are responsible for keeping everyone at a certain standard of living. You're talking about the old American Dream, which sadly just doesn't apply anymore. Back in the day, yeah, anybody could create a business and do reasonably well for themselves if they worked hard enough. These days, the lower classes are trapped in their current status. If you're working two or three minimum-wage jobs, how are you going to improve your situation?
This is the precise reason the people in today's society achieve nil within their meager existence; such a poisonous view upon one's life, citing their social status is chosen the moment they are born with naught a choice of their own. This is an excuse and quite an embarrassing one if I do say so myself. How you improve your situation is perhaps the most undemanding practice known to man; you work towards your future. If you wish to success in life you must resolve yourself to challenge the hand of this ill perceived fate, thus creating your own story and not opting to linger amongst failure.

Only a fragment of those of upper class status were born within lavishes of wealth; it was earned through a variety of means, be they their own determination, financial support from loved ones or endless graveyard shifts at a local fastfood chain; banking whatever extra income accumulated. People today are a fragile lot, the looming dread of chancing success holding them a bay; whilst those few who dare gamble their hand, give up immediately upon the slightest collapse as if they were to lose their entire world; an over dramatized exaggeration no less.

I cite myself for this example. I have been fortunate enough to receive a number of opportunities, yet while we (I am not alone in this venture) have attempted to capitalize upon them, it was not to be. I have but a single opportunity left to grasp and should it to fall through, I shall be forced to open my emergency plan so I may continue to strive toward and achieve my goals. It entails working mundane jobs for close to or even beyond, seventy hours a week, nonetheless if I must I shall accept that otherwise horrid course for the sole reason I am not one to accept being born mediocre; a mere statistic on a Government file. It is people such as myself whom will succeed in life and those who accept being mediocre will in turn stay their course.

Yes I am quite passionate regarding this, it is one of the few topics to cite such a response however I felt it was necessary for it is a bother to hear/read such ridiculous excuses. Of course you are free to disagree, although I will believe you are in denial for doing so.
 

Mistah Kurtz

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This is ridiculous. I can't believe I'm arguing with a bunch of people who think Marxism is a good idea and try to derail an argument against socialism by turning it into an argument about christmas and whether smart thieves steal from rich people - ask a socialist. The first person they steal from is the rich. This has gone on way too long, and I've got studying to do.
 

Ravatar

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Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846284 said:
Ravatar post=18.74687.846275 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846241 said:
Cheeze_Pavilion post=18.74687.846217 said:
Mistah Kurtz post=18.74687.846179 said:
Police officers have a greater benefit from their cost as they vastly cut down on the number of hard working people having their wealth stolen by people who don't want to work as hard and would rather steal from rich people then try to become rich themselves.
Don't most thieves rob poor people, though?
Only the dumb ones.
Not true, the average thief would probably rather steal from the poor as their victims receive less attention and cooperation from law enforcement.
Well, the average thief is a fucking idiot that was too stupid to go to school. Stealing from rich people is the way to go - if you steal from poor people you have to do it a bunch of times and you risk getting caught more. If you steal from a rich person, you could live off one good haul for a long fuckin time.
Which is classic risk management. Sure, knocking off pedestrians or scamming people for $50 a pop isn't as good of a haul as robbing a bank or starting a religion, but over the long run there's a tradeoff in both approaches. Thieves don't have to be booksmart to understand these principles.

Anyways on the main topic of this thread: Obama supports social liberalism, not socialism. They're not even close to being the same thing. I do admit I find it funny that many middle class and redneck lower class somehow subscribe to the belief that voting against your best interests is a good thing (ie. liberalism). They we're caught hook, line, and sinker into believing that if you just work a little harder you'll get what you want.
 

Trace2010

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In addition, if children do not bring their foundations into adulthood, what is the functions of parental units after birth?

While I understand if you do not adopt the same views on religion as I do, I believe that there is a need to instill certain values in children at a young age.

SIDE NOTE: I thought I was living in "Blazing Saddles" for a moment...the part where the fight in the Western spills all over the movie studio lot. LOL ;)
 

Mistah Kurtz

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Trace2010 post=18.74687.846303 said:
In addition, if children do not bring their foundations into adulthood, what is the functions of parental units after birth?

While I understand if you do not adopt the same views on religion as I do, I believe that there is a need to instill certain values in children at a young age.

SIDE NOTE: I thought I was living in "Blazing Saddles" for a moment...the part where the fight in the Western spills all over the movie studio lot. LOL ;)
I know I said I was done, but check out the God Delusion by Dawkins. While it's proofs against God's existance are admittedly lacking and refutable, he does give some compelling evidence for the concept of morals to being evolutionary in origin, not religious.