Bayonetta as a role model

[Riobux]

... you just made a surprisingly good few points there.
I was about to spout "loltits" but now I have to think about this a bit more. Oh, also, just so you know, feminist females don't generally think themselves better than men, they just want equality.
Good post, though.

To be honest, it depends on what branch of feminism you mean. While Liberal and Marxist feminists clearly want equality, and I think it's safe to say Black feminists want equality too, it's hard to say Duel Systems feminists and Radical feminists just want equality and not full out domination.

 

[oldskoolandi]

To the OP: I may be reading it wrong, but it doesnt seem particularly feminist to me that in order to be proud of your body it has to be a body that appeals to men. If Bay had any physical flaws, I think you'd have a stronger argument. Wouldn't a plain, physically possible figure be more appropriate?

Absolutely! If she wasn't so hot, then the points I raised would still be valid. There ARE female characters who aren't gorgeous or stunning who can be looked up to. It's just that I only recently played Bayonetta, so it's on my mind a lot. Plus, she's pretty inspirational (to me, at least).

But, as I said, I didn't want to focus on her physical appearance. Only in one of my points (I think), did I mention her body, because I'm trying to focus more on her personality and what she represents, as opposed to how she looks.
But...my question to you, is why does she need to be average-looking to be classified as a role model? Actresses and female musicians aren't subjected to, "Well, I'd like your acting/singing more if you were slightly less beautiful, because then you wouldn't just be a sexual desire to distract men from the plot." Why should Bayonetta be any different?

I suppose the difference is that musicians/actresses are real people, and (with some possible exceptions) they have the body they were born with, rather than one that was chosen and designed a certain way.
Personality wise, I agree with you (maybe that wasn't clear in my post). I don't think someone has to be average looking to be a role model, but I still think she was designed to appeal to men physically. It's a difficlut thing to seperate personality from form, as both have an influence, especially in a very visual medium like video games.

 

[kannibus]

Good points there bud. I have to admit though, when I first got Bayonetta myself I was thinking "hmm hot chick with big guns" but after I played it for a goodly amount of time, I thought to myself, "hmm, she's a lot less one-dimensional than I thought".

Still, as a male who probably hasn't evolved much in the past million years or so, I still appreciate the woman = hot.

 

[Manji187]

I think that here...the question should not be how women relate to men...but how women relate to themselves and other women.

What are admirable virtues/ traits to women that they see in themselves and other women?

How does the whole "role model" thing work for women?

Also, equivalence (in the sense of human dignity) is the keyword....NOT equality. The day that men and women will be equal is the day the human race is fully androgynous.

 

[TPiddy]

I think the difficulty here lies in seperation. Bayonetta's attitude may well be a strong argument for a feminist icon, but her physical appearance is (in my opinion) overly-sexualised. Had she been running about in a less skin tight catsuit that didn't suddenly vanish, the OP's points would be much easier to make. As some people have mentioned, if a male character ran around ripping his shirt off all the time, people would laugh at the OTT machismo of it. If he occasionally whipped his dick out, people would call him a pervert. I think Bayonetta went for a tongue in cheek style, which worked.

To the OP: I may be reading it wrong, but it doesnt seem particularly feminist to me that in order to be proud of your body it has to be a body that appeals to men. If Bay had any physical flaws, I think you'd have a stronger argument. Wouldn't a plain, physically possible figure be more appropriate?

TLR? Bay is intelligent, independent and would be a better feminist icon if she wasn't wrapped in a skin created by men, for men.

Exactly this... where the 'Bayonetta as a role model' argument falls down is that she is something that 90% of the female population cannot ever be. You can say that Bayonetta is comfortable with her sexuality and comfortable in her own skin, but women will just look at that and say, 'if I had her body and skin I'd be comfortable with it too'. The female empowerment message is lost in the over-sexualization and unreleastic standard set by her physical appearance.

 

[Communist partisan]

I never played bayonetta or even seen her at a picture but you are making a great point if she fits whith your description and stuff, beacose if so you're damn right.

 

[BabySinclair]

Very good argument points, some of which most people take incorrectly as just hyper-sexualizing the character. Reminds me of Movie Bob's Bond oversights, women (in his case Bond girls) who embraced their sexuality were strong willed and feminist role-models.

 

[kouriichi]

Yes, i did pay attention during my half dozen play throughs.

But see, theres a differance between "overtly sexual" and, "Straight up whore". Shes running around, spreading her legs, in a skin tight cat suit made of her own hair, torturing and dominating demons in a way that makes sadists blush, making sexual noises and suggestive comments.

who's she flaunting at?
the angels she's killing?
think about it like this; she just enjoys moving like that
she does it alone, she does it in public, she does it when she's surrounded by hostiles
she's confident and she won't let anyone stop her from dancing or being sexy

that's just a way of thinking about it

And please tell, what male characters are "domineering, in charge, sexually active, aggressive and/or dress in outfits that accentuate or even show off their bodies"? I cant think of a single one! >.>;

almost all male characters in all games today fit at least one of those things

and you want somebody who fits all of them
Garus from Mass Effect 2

and about the outfits there are more than a few JRPG's I could point out

>.>; Oh yes. Turian Garrus Vakarian is wearing a provocative suit, is sexually dominate, and shows off his body. The only problems with that arguement is that he was unsure about the relationship to begin with, didnt exactly come on to your character, and oh yeah, Hes an alien. We have no clue where is sexual organs are placed, nor what they look like.

Its hard to say an alien is like Bayonnetta. Considering you can ask him if he wants to, "Get rid of tension" and he thinks your talking about shooting at eachother.

Bayonetta shouldent be "A role model". Nor should she be a "feminist icon". Your basic arguement is, "She open with her sexuality and isnt afraid of being strong".

But by that arguement, your saying that Dead or Alive Extreame Beach Vollyball is the greatest "feminist icon" of all time. Its an extreamly diverse group of women, who are all increadably strong and independant. They are comfertable with theyer bodys and sexuality and theyer all able to take charge.

 

[MC K-Mac]

I search bar-ed this and didn't find anything similar, but I apologise if it's been done before.

-SNIP-

1. Bayonetta does not shy away from her sexuality. As we all know, that game is laden with sexual references, innuendo and partial nudity. However, I don't believe that the creators specifically created Bayonetta to be the sexual object that people have claimed. Her sexuality is part of her character, it's not just thrown in as sleazy pleasure on the side. When women were oppressed, their sexuality was something to be seen as shameful. History is littered with evidence of this. Surely, by embracing her sexuality so completely, using her sexuality to create highly powerful, highly charged attacks to despatch her enemies, it's safe to say that Bayonetta is the epitome of the things feminism strives and stands for?

-SNIP-

3. I'll probably be berated for this, but I believe that Bayonetta represents the female form better than a lot of other female characters. Yes, her limbs are exaggerated, but she has curves, an ass, she has breasts and she's not particularly skinny/size zero, which is what the media too often presents as perfection. Sure, she's slim (hell, she fights angels for a living, she has to be in great shape), but she bears more resemblance to real females than some others I've seen.

-SNIP-

So, what do you fine people of The Escapist think about Bayonetta as a feminist icon?

OK, at first I thought this post was a joke, but everyone else seems to be taking it seriously, so I guess I will too. Admittedly, I have never played the game, so I won't criticize any points made which deal with things that happen in the game.

But your first point - Bayonetta is a "femininist icon" because she "embraces her sexuality". I have a hard time accepting either of those points, but I'll address the second one first. What does it mean to have a female embrace her sexuality? Being a male, I'll never be able to say for sure, but based on books I've read and people (women) I've talked to, it means not being silent about any aspect of female sexuality that was traditionally hushed up, such as female pleasure and desires, and a lot of female sexual mechanics, such as menstruation. Traditionally, female sexuality has been something that serves men, i.e. titillates and satisfies them. Anything else is irrelevant and discouraged. Seen in this light, how is Bayonetta a feminist icon? She dresses provocatively, says flirty things, and gets naked as part of the in-game action. That ain't feminism, folks. Of course, you can always say that "she's just using sex to get what she wants" which is an argument used for strippers, porn stars, et al. This is a valid argument. However, I don't see it as being relevant in this case. Why is it necessary for Bayonetta to do any of these things? Would she be any less effective of a fighter if she remained clothed? Or if she make knock-knock jokes instead of suggestive sayings? I'm guessing no. So, if there's no reason for this stuff to exist, you have to acknowledge the elephant in the room and assume it's there for pure fanwankery, nothing more. Hardly feminist.

I have no comment on your second point, but your third? Hoo-ah. What the hell has to happen to people in order to think Bayonetta in any way represents the female (or even human) form? Brain trauma?!? Jesus Zombie Christ, OP. Bayonetta's thighs extend PAST HER HEAD when she sits on her haunches. Her limbs are ridiculously long. She's more a spider/giraffe/human hybrid than she is a woman. Holding this up as "representing the female form" isn't just laughable, it's downright irresponsible. At least current magazine ads are just making girls starve themselves and get boob jobs. If Bayonetta becomes the standard, girls will start getting limb extensions.

No comment on point four. And point five is exactly the same as point one, so, no comment. Or rather, see above.

 

[Rachel317]

I have no comment on your second point, but your third? Hoo-ah. What the hell has to happen to people in order to think Bayonetta in any way represents the female (or even human) form? Brain trauma?!? Jesus Zombie Christ, OP. Bayonetta's thighs extend PAST HER HEAD when she sits on her haunches. Her limbs are ridiculously long. She's more a spider/giraffe/human hybrid than she is a woman. Holding this up as "representing the female form" isn't just laughable, it's downright irresponsible. At least current magazine ads are just making girls starve themselves and get boob jobs. If Bayonetta becomes the standard, girls will start getting limb extensions.

I addressed the realism of her body. I didn't say her arms are representative of real arms but, in general, her torso is relatively similar to real life. Like I say, she has an ass, which most women do, not just a flat area. She has boobs, but they're not ridiculously huge like Lara Croft's. I've seen real women with real boobs that were bigger than Bayonetta's.
My point, which I probably should have explained, is that the media makes people want to go under the knife. To look at least a little like Bayonetta, all you have to do is work out, which is good for your health above anything else. She doesn't represent a female form that is COMPLETELY out of reach. The exaggerated limbs can really be ignored here, although it must be noted that she has muscle definition in her legs and arms, they aren't just skinny twigs attached in order to emphasis the "assets". In fact, unless Bayonetta's breasts are really emphasised in cut scenes or whatever, they're not particularly noticeable.

Also, if you haven't played the game, then how can you comment on the gameplay? Bayonetta's hair is a source of power. When she faces a "big boss", her natural hair gets longer and flows down her back. The more out of control her attacks become (read: aggressive), the less control she has over her hair, hence why it comes off to form demons. It's practicality, man!!

EDIT: Also, Bayonetta was highly sexualised, admittedly. However, Jeanne (another Umbran Witch) was not particularly subjected to this at all, even in cut scenes when opportunities presented themselves. So the game isn't ALL about sex, otherwise they would have made EVERY female in the game sexually deviant. Plus, there's a child in the game, towards which Bayonetta acts very motherly and the sexual side doesn't really come out. So it's more complicated than you might think.

 

[Crolley]

The issue I have with Bayonetta as some kind of progressive feminist icon is that her sexuality goes beyond just appealing to males. Her appearance, her attitude, her personality... it's all designed to manipulate male sexuality. It's practically weaponized.

Someone else in this thread described her as "sexually intimidating", which I thought was a very good way of putting it. She's designed this way on purpose, and it's different than her simply being comfortable with her sexuality.

The traits you describe are fine by themselves, but I feel you're dissecting Bayonetta and approving of these traits individually, instead of judging her as a whole. A lot of these desirable traits stem from the undesirable purpose for which she was calculatingly engineered.

I'm not saying she's evil or anything, I liked the game, but she wields sex appeal almost as a weapon, her designers wield that sex appeal almost as a weapon. Unyieldingly sexual yet completely unobtainable... not for herself or her own independance, but to endear herself as a sexual fantasy to the younger males playing the game.

Is she a strong, independent, yet sexual woman, or just the fetishization of strong, independent, yet sexual women?

 

[Patton662]

Overly sexual eyecandy with freakishly long legs to magnify the sexappeal, sounds like a feminist icon to me. After all, feminists are known to want to be seen as nothing more but sex object.

 

[Rachel317]

The traits you describe are fine by themselves, but I feel you're dissecting Bayonetta and approving of these traits individually, instead of judging her as a whole. A lot of these desirable traits stem from the undesirable purpose for which she was calculatingly engineered.

I see your point. But in order to judge Bayonetta as a whole, you HAVE to dissect her, because she's not one dimensional like so many protagonists before her, she has many different sides to her personality which make her a whole person. You wouldn't just judge a person based on...their stubbornness, you'd perhaps judge them on that along with the reasons FOR the stubbornness.

I DO judge her on the whole, and I DO like her as a character. Even without the nurturing, mothering aspect, I find the sexualisation highly refreshing. True, males maybe see her as little more than a highly sexual, gun wielding woman. Women, on the other hand, may view her open, flirtatious attitude to be something they wish they had.

So when it really comes down to the basic argument, it's not about whether Bayonetta can be a feminist icon or not; it's more about whether she is able to transcend the different genders' analysis and observations of the world. Obviously, as is the case with most things, she does not manage this. However, it IS fair to say that we're going to have differing opinions.
When you remove the sexual interest in Bayonetta (as in, with heterosexual women), you can analyse everything about her. However, with the typical, red-blooded male, then of COURSE they're going to see the sexual presentation of her as opposed to anything else.

And also, if this game WAS all about sex, then why isn't Jeanne particularly sexualised?

 

[TehCookie]

The things that make role models is having a problem but also having the strength to overcome it, I've never play the game I have no idea what Bay's problems are but it seems to me she has none (well besides the angel thing, but no emotional problems or insecurities) and was just created for eye-candy. Also isn't it a man's ideal women to be great with kids and comfortable with her body and show it off to everyone (well only if they're attractive)?

 

[veloper]

Judging from the crotch shots, the camera flying through her legs and her clothes frequently coming off, if Bayonetta becomes the feminist symbol, it sure wasn't intentional.

Not a bad game though and that's all that matters.

 

[MC K-Mac]

I addressed the realism of her body. I didn't say her arms are representative of real arms but, in general, her torso is relatively similar to real life. Like I say, she has an ass, which most women do, not just a flat area. She has boobs, but they're not ridiculously huge like Lara Croft's. I've seen real women with real boobs that were bigger than Bayonetta's.
My point, which I probably should have explained, is that the media makes people want to go under the knife. To look at least a little like Bayonetta, all you have to do is work out, which is good for your health above anything else. She doesn't represent a female form that is COMPLETELY out of reach. The exaggerated limbs can really be ignored here, although it must be noted that she has muscle definition in her legs and arms, they aren't just skinny twigs attached in order to emphasis the "assets". In fact, unless Bayonetta's breasts are really emphasised in cut scenes or whatever, they're not particularly noticeable.

Also, if you haven't played the game, then how can you comment on the gameplay? Bayonetta's hair is a source of power. When she faces a "big boss", her natural hair gets longer and flows down her back. The more out of control her attacks become (read: aggressive), the less control she has over her hair, hence why it comes off to form demons. It's practicality, man!!

Ah well at this point we're just dealing with subjective opinion. I acknowledge that you did mention her over-long limps in your OP. HOWEVER:

she has an ass, which most women do, not just a flat area.

We clearly have not been playing the same games. EVERY video game I've played or looked at that has a woman in it; that woman has a shapely, attractive derriere. Why? Because men find it attractive, just like they do in Bayonetta.

To look at least a little like Bayonetta, all you have to do is work out...She doesn't represent a female form that is COMPLETELY out of reach.

It's not just the exaggerated limbs. Her torso is enlongated. She's got a tiny little head. She looks like a human that's been put in a taffy puller. She is, not to put too fine a point on it, freakish-looking. You would need to do a lot more than work out to look like her - you would need radical medical science that hasn't been invented yet.

Lastly, regarding your comment on gameplay - I'm solely commenting on how Bayonetta looks. Having watched trailers and reviews, and having read a few of the 100 million or so articles that have been written about this game, I feel qualified to do this.

 

[Crolley]

I see your point. But in order to judge Bayonetta as a whole, you HAVE to dissect her, because she's not one dimensional like so many protagonists before her, she has many different sides to her personality which make her a whole person. You wouldn't just judge a person based on...their stubbornness, you'd perhaps judge them on that along with the reasons FOR the stubbornness.

I DO judge her on the whole, and I DO like her as a character. Even without the nurturing, mothering aspect, I find the sexualisation highly refreshing. True, males maybe see her as little more than a highly sexual, gun wielding woman. Women, on the other hand, may view her open, flirtatious attitude to be something they wish they had.

Well... I guess maybe that's what being an icon is. Being more to people than what you were designed to be. I would like to repeat that she was designed with a purpose. Many (almost all of them, but not all) of her character traits can be connected to this purpose... but I will concede that some of them could be a matter of interpretation.

Again, I suppose something transcending its original design is part of becoming an icon. If she really means more to you than what she was designed to be... maybe she shouldn't be written off as an icon just yet.

So when it really comes down to the basic argument, it's not about whether Bayonetta can be a feminist icon or not; it's more about whether she is able to transcend the different genders' analysis and observations of the world. Obviously, as is the case with most things, she does not manage this. However, it IS fair to say that we're going to have differing opinions.
When you remove the sexual interest in Bayonetta (as in, with heterosexual women), you can analyse everything about her. However, with the typical, red-blooded male, then of COURSE they're going to see the sexual presentation of her as opposed to anything else.

Her sexual presentation is (purposefully) nearly the entirety of her design purpose. All her character traits reinforce her as a sexual fantasy. If you try to analyze them without the sexual interest that is at the core of her character (at a very fundamental design level), then you're analyzing these traits divorced of their proper context. All these strong woman traits are for the purpose of making her more sexually desirable (and she is desirable for the sake of being desirable).

I can appreciate your viewpoint turning her into something more for you, but her original design (though tongue-in-cheek and self-aware) is entirely sexual in nature. Her personality ties into this inexorably. It's all part of the sexual appeal, the fetish.

And also, if this game WAS all about sex, then why isn't Jeanne particularly sexualised?

Ha, I said Bayonetta the character was about sex (by design), not the entire game.

 

[Rachel317]

I can appreciate your viewpoint turning her into something more for you, but her original design (though tongue-in-cheek and self-aware) is entirely sexual in nature. Her personality ties into this inexorably. It's all part of the sexual appeal, the fetish.

Ha, I said Bayonetta the character was about sex (by design), not the entire game.

Hell yes, she was designed in that way for a purpose. If they'd made her a 400 pound women with a balding head and warts, no one would have bought the game. It's a shame, but developers STILL need a hook to get people interested. The artwork on the cover of the game ALONE is enough to draw peoples' attention. Fair enough, she maybe WAS designed to be nothing more than a sexy lady, but if you look deeper into her personality, and even the design itself, there's a lot more to her.

Hell, maybe I'm pulling ideas out of my ass that are totally inaccurate, I understand that. But I also think that if the OTT sexualisation can be overlooked, then she's very much NOT a one dimensional character. There ARE women like her in the real world, so it's not like she's purely the creation of imagination.

And also...yeah, you got me on the second point. Fair play, Sir!

We clearly have not been playing the same games. EVERY video game I've played or looked at that has a woman in it; that woman has a shapely, attractive derriere. Why? Because men find it attractive, just like they do in Bayonetta.

Yes, but the MEDIA projects an image of these skinny models on the front of magazines. Which is bad for young girls, obviously. I'm not saying she looks EXACTLY like a human being, that's why I qualified what I was saying by specifically mentioning her torso, which is relatively normal. And the tiny head is actually normal sized, but looks smaller because of her elongated limbs, that's all.

You're entitled to your opinions, for sure, but I haven't really mentioned her looks in my argument. I've based my opinion, thus far, purely on the aspects of her personality.

Lastly, regarding your comment on gameplay - I'm solely commenting on how Bayonetta looks. Having watched trailers and reviews, and having read a few of the 100 million or so articles that have been written about this game, I feel qualified to do this.

Except...you're not really qualified to say anything, because you don't know. I'm not being rude, but if you haven't played the game, you've missed out on a lot of plot points and scenes that are vital to you understanding where I'm coming from.

 

[Crolley]

I can appreciate your viewpoint turning her into something more for you, but her original design (though tongue-in-cheek and self-aware) is entirely sexual in nature. Her personality ties into this inexorably. It's all part of the sexual appeal, the fetish.

Ha, I said Bayonetta the character was about sex (by design), not the entire game.

Hell yes, she was designed in that way for a purpose. If they'd made her a 400 pound women with a balding head and warts, no one would have bought the game. It's a shame, but developers STILL need a hook to get people interested. The artwork on the cover of the game ALONE is enough to draw peoples' attention. Fair enough, she maybe WAS designed to be nothing more than a sexy lady, but if you look deeper into her personality, and even the design itself, there's a lot more to her.

Hell, maybe I'm pulling ideas out of my ass that are totally inaccurate, I understand that. But I also think that if the OTT sexualisation can be overlooked, then she's very much NOT a one dimensional character. There ARE women like her in the real world, so it's not like she's purely the creation of imagination.

And also...yeah, you got me on the second point. Fair play, Sir!

Well... I think we've pretty much come to an understanding. I gave it some thought, and I figure maybe this is how icons become icons. Maybe this analysis you and others give Bayonetta is the kind of thing that causes characters to become something deeper and more meaningful than what they were originally intended to be. So... maybe you're right. I guess that's... good game?

 

[Rachel317]

Well... I think we've pretty much come to an understanding. I gave it some thought, and I figure maybe this is how icons become icons. Maybe this analysis you and others give Bayonetta is the kind of thing that causes characters to become something deeper and more meaningful than what they were originally intended to be. So... maybe you're right. I guess that's... good game?

Indeed. *Shakes hand* A good debate is always interesting. I can see how people would think she's nothing more than an object of sex. However, I can also see the flipside. I'd like to see some more in-depth analysis of her, though...maybe my argument isn't particularly intricate or analytical to the point where opinions can be changed.

Regardless, she'll always be of inspirational status for me

Happy New Year, Sir! I look forward to debating again with you in the future