Bayonetta as a role model

[likalaruku]

I'd say the shirtless men were sexualy objectified to attract gay gamers.

 

[Rachel317]

Females have gained a lot of equality through sexuality but I feel it's time for them to stop (using overt sexuality, not striving for equality). What was an aggressive revolutionary rebuttal to being oppressed is becoming more of a character trait, which is sad. I equate this to the Black Panther movement. The Black Panther movement was very necessary and created a lot of change in America. Unfortunately, this led to a lot of members and sympathizers resorting to a life of crime and has a direct correlation to many all black gangs popping up. This is unfortunate and has led to a shit ton of stereotyping.

For the female equality movement to get big attention, they needed a bang and the oppression of their sexuality was probably the best thing to target. It worked. However, too many have now zeroed in on sexuality and use it solely to achieve equality, even though the initial shock is long over and it only served to "break down the door". There was too little commitment by women to then tackle other and more pressing matters, which I find to be a shame.

I would usually agree with this...but reading back through the rest of this thread, it strikes me that some people believe a woman's sexuality should be oppressed; Bayonetta can't be an icon because of her sexual nature, supposedly. Unfortunately, it would appear that sexism and oppression still exists, just not in the obvious, overt fashion it used to be presented in.

 

[Akkiko]

So, what do you fine people of The Escapist think about Bayonetta as a feminist icon?

I'll stick with Mary Wollstonecraft, thank you very much. The minute Bayonetta becomes my role model is the day Dante becomes my ideal husband.

 

[jamesworkshop]

I'd say the shirtless men were sexualy objectified to attract gay gamers.

That's a shocking suggestion ^_^

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

She is only objectified if you objectify her.

All I'm saying is that when your main selling point is having huge tits and long legs, it's really hard to say that the developers didn't doom her to objectification from the start.

Who would've thought that.

It's like calling something "racist", you know. A self-perpetuating concept.
People were calling resident evil 5 "racist" unaware that by doing so, they themselves were "racist" because of their inability to see the black zombies as what they were: zombified human beings.

Yeah... um... that's not really relevant to the topic at hand. How you are comparing abstract concepts to race right there is seriously bewildering to me.

By labeling bayonetta an "objectification of women and nothing else" you're robbing her of the possibility to represent something else.

And you're not even aware that you're the one doing the objectification.

First off, don't misquote me.

I didn't say she wasn't anything else. I just said that she is literally the epitome of objectifying women (in this case, to sell a video game). That doesn't mean she has no other qualities... it just means that a large majority will never really look into her as a character.

And what... you didn't even know what objectify meant a few minutes ago and now you're telling me I'm unaware of something that isn't true?

Seriously you make no sense... I'll explain once more and then I'm done with you because I can see that you're either looking to rant about nonsense or you're trolling...

The person who created Bayonetta made her in such a way that she would be objectified from the second the game was announced (this was also reflected in the marketing) and he or she did so deliberately to boost sales... It's practically tradition now that low budget Japanese game companies get their publishers by proving that unoriginal, cliche gameplay will sell if you include enough T&A.

EDIT: Seriously this linguistics lesson on objectification of fictional characters is not going to go anywhere and is off topic anyway.

 

[PeePantz]

Females have gained a lot of equality through sexuality but I feel it's time for them to stop (using overt sexuality, not striving for equality). What was an aggressive revolutionary rebuttal to being oppressed is becoming more of a character trait, which is sad. I equate this to the Black Panther movement. The Black Panther movement was very necessary and created a lot of change in America. Unfortunately, this led to a lot of members and sympathizers resorting to a life of crime and has a direct correlation to many all black gangs popping up. This is unfortunate and has led to a shit ton of stereotyping.

For the female equality movement to get big attention, they needed a bang and the oppression of their sexuality was probably the best thing to target. It worked. However, too many have now zeroed in on sexuality and use it solely to achieve equality, even though the initial shock is long over and it only served to "break down the door". There was too little commitment by women to then tackle other and more pressing matters, which I find to be a shame.

I would usually agree with this...but reading back through the rest of this thread, it strikes me that some people believe a woman's sexuality should be oppressed; Bayonetta can't be an icon because of her sexual nature, supposedly. Unfortunately, it would appear that sexism and oppression still exists, just not in the obvious, overt fashion it used to be presented in.

There's going to be backward thinking people everywhere you go. Nothing will change their mind but it softens each generation. Also, from what I've noticed, despite what many say, a ton of Escapist users are socially conservative and have somewhat fascist views. Look at any drug or piracy thread. About half of the people will be looking to either lock up people for life or I've seen comments like "they'd be better off dead", etc. I'm not condoning these things, but for these users to want everything to be black and white and with the stiffest penalties applied, there's bound to be a chunk who are ignorant to equality for women.

 

[likalaruku]

I'd say the shirtless men were sexualy objectified to attract gay gamers.

That's a shocking suggestion ^_^

::shiver:: That WOULD be my first video of the new year.

 

[Rachel317]

There's going to be backward thinking people everywhere you go. Nothing will change their mind but it softens each generation. Also, from what I've noticed, despite what many say, a ton of Escapist users are socially conservative and have somewhat fascist views. Look at any drug or piracy thread. About half of the people will be looking to either lock up people for life or I've seen comments like "they'd be better off dead", etc. I'm not condoning these things, but for these users to want everything to be black and white and with the stiffest penalties applied, there's bound to be a chunk who are ignorant to equality for women.

Too true. Maybe this was the wrong place to ask, with the general views of the users, but people like you give insight into your opinion, not just "No, cos she's a WHORE!"
Women are definitely liberated, don't get me wrong, but it's this backwards opinion that women can't be role models if they're proud of themselves that gets my back up, as though being sexually attractive, and knowing it, devalues them. Yes, we get the sluts who only dress in that way because they want to appeal to men, of course those women are out there. Bu then there are the ones who dress and act in a certain way, purely for themselves.

The whole, "They only act that way to appease men", that's what's really holding a REAL change of opinion back.

All I'm saying is that when your main selling point is having huge tits and long legs, it's really hard to say that the developers didn't doom her to objectification from the start.

Again, she's only like this if you see her like that. Her breasts AREN'T huge, they're actually quite average. The lead designer, a woman, even made it clear she didn't want to create yet another character with huge assets to draw in the male attention. Bayonetta isn't all about that, and that's what I'm trying to get at. Look at her personality and attitude, not just how she looks. Maybe this is the problem, maybe humans are too shallow to see past the physical. What a shame.

And long legs...
1. That allows her to move the way she does. Bear in mind, ALL of the characters in the game have relatively the same proportions, so it's obviously meant to be set in a time when this appearance is normal.
2. It's a game mechanic, to allow for some of the more intricate moves.
3. The developers expressly explained that there ARE women with Bayonetta's proportions, because they studied them to get her body right.

Suggesting that she's only a shallow, one-dimensional character (which is wrong to begin with - the game is littered with her personality, wit and intelligence), and that you CAN'T hold her in any esteem because she's aggressively sexual or looks a certain way is sexism, in my book. So, to put it bluntly, if you don't see past the exterior, how are you qualified to make a significant contribution that people will take seriously?

 

[Rachel317]

Enslaved, didn't Yahtzee make a comment about 'Monkey', the male character, having a neck like he was pumped with steroids?
Come to think of it, just about every male in every non-Japanese-RPG game is built like the Incredible Hulk, big ass muscles and looking all roided-up.

Does that image appeal to women? Does it even appeal to other guys? *shrug*
Whatever floats your boat.

Monkey was...an unusually structured gentleman, to be quite honest. But that's not all there is to him, and that's my point exactly. He's roided up, but he's also sensitive and caring towards Trip, the female character he must protect. It's not all about appearance, it's about the deeper aspects of their personality. I haven't seen the Enslaved review, but it sounds quite accurate

But why do developers need to make these unrealistic males? If they're trying to appeal to a largely male dominated market, surely it would be better to make the protagonists an every man, or at least truer to life? But then, do gamers want an every woman in games? Hell no! Because normal people don't tend to be fun to play.

Would Lara Croft have been as successful if she had a bit of a gut, bingo wings and stretch marks? Of course not. So the double standards are still rife within the gaming industry, and I suspect it will stay this way for the foreseeable future.

 

[Rachel317]

Was I the only one who noticed that those 5 points were actually 2 points?

The first being about comfort with sexuality and the second being about (emotional/psychological)strength.

Either Lara Croft or Samus would make better role models.

Also I think Bayonetta is the most HORRIBLY MODELED woman ever! I mean... The shoulders are a yard an a half wide and her knees go past her head.

Personally I think Velma is sexier!

Haha. That picture's great...

Also, just trying to give a more in-depth analysis, misterprickly. They're all related points, yes, but all say different things.
Reading and understanding is always useful before posting, and showing yourself up
And whatever man, you're entitled to find Velma attractive, even if no one else can work out why the hell you would think that
I wont make an issue of that, because Velma wasn't just (in your opinion) attractive, she was smart too, right? Why can't a woman be more than one thing?
Or are we all for double standards when it suits our purposes?

Plus...I wonder just how sexy you'd find that woman if she wasn't flashing her cleavage.

 

[Rachel317]

Actually you're saying the SAME thing only WORDING it differently.

Again, slightly different message in each point.

As for "are we all for double standards when it suits our purposes?" I had the exact same thoughts in another thread.

Hell yes, the double standards there are both ridiculous and wrong.
Women tend to not be particularly objective when it comes to things like this either, to be fair. Men will say, "she looks like a whore" and be done with it, whilst a woman will tell another womann she looks lovely, then ***** to her friends. Not all women do this, however, so I'm not trying to generalise. But until we have a clear-cut view of what is acceptable and what is not that, both genders agree on, there's no real way forward.

These things will NEVER be clear-cut, however, because women are just as likely as men to make assumptions on other men and women as men are, based on outward appearance alone, without considering personality, accomplishments, yadda yadda.

As for Velma... I've ALWAYS liked Velma!

You have...unusual tastes
Actually, I know people who rate Velma higher than Daphne, too. What is it about Velma that makes her so attractive to you personally, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Rachel317]

Its time to call in the big guns:
http://screwattack.com/videos/TGO-Episode-32-I-Heart-Bayonetta

As usual, 'MovieBob' is able to analyze things with enough sense of intelligence to make valid points, backing up his points with evidence as necessary. For every criticism that someone would have, he already thought of it and already made counterpoints to them.

And for the next act:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viDFTwy5LeA

A gameplay vid of Bayonetta, showing off combat and such. The 'Cammy kicks' in particular are pretty hilarious, and the idea of having her being both silly and empowering just seems odd. Its as 'MovieBob' said, she may be the one and only example of a woman that's both empowering and hyper-sexualized. Her oddly-long legs have a purpose if you watch the combat, its to allow her to pull off those moves and aim the guns on her shoes in ways to survive. Not perfect, but it has a purpose. As for her hair and other fetishized looks, that's up to individual views, but again 'MovieBob' made lots of points.

The glasses imply a degree of intelligence, though its not entirely fleshed out. The hair is that way perhaps to facilitate the creation/removal of clothing. The legs, as mentioned, are that way to facilitate combat in very specific ways, she couldn't move around like she does otherwise (hopping around like a spider almost, how fitting).

Even the lollipop-fetish thing is decently analyzed, and its explained as something that's supposed to be a stab at social commentary.

In other words, Bayonetta's character is more complex then at first glance, she seems hypersexualized but she's managed to pull off being empowered rather than submissive or being an 'ice queen'. While Bob didn't even mention FF6's female characters, his other points are valid enough to make sense.

So yeah, Bob makes this a /thread. ^_^

I agree with his points but you really cannot /thread with a youtube video, bob's opinion is not the only game in town

Obscurumlux...just a few pages ago, you were quick to verbally attack and abuse me personally. Why are you now agreeing with the video that makes some of the exact same points that I have?

I'm slightly confused as to this contradiction. In fact, you said, "you have the fucking nerve to criticise Lara Croft when she is formally educated and boasts about it, so Bayonetta's glasses mean nothing" (paraphrased, obviously). Which side of the fence are you actually on? Or were you just quick to post before you'd fully understood what I was actually arguing?

 

[Zefar]

I certainly wouldn't say 40% of people are weird or wrong if they dont find her attractive, it's all down to personal tastes. Maybe some people find glasses a turn off, or prefer blondes, whatever the reason might be. That applies equally to any game character.

I also wouldn't say 40% are wrong for seeing something deeper in a protagonist, and of course we shouldn't preclude the possibility of people being capable of finding a character both sexually desirable and still seeing something deeper and more meaningful about them, whatever that individuals interpretation may be.

I'd say it's more about her unusual long neck and way to long legs that makes here quite unappealing. Glasses and hair color has nothing to do with not liking this girl.

I honestly don't see her as a role model for girls.

Like really, black skin tight clothes(or hair clothes more likely) with high heels and flashing monsters with her body when performing her power moves. Actually as I haven't played the game, I wonder, does she do this to any humans? Or monsters only?

But lets take a look on some pictures of her.

Spoiler

Look at those legs, way to long. It just doesn't look good imo.

Also I do know that you can make your neck longer but this comes with a price. You have to use rings and place them around your neck and so do for several years. But if you remove these you will not be able to keep your head up. A certain group of people do this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neck_ring Read more there.

Spoiler

Look around the last part of her legs. It's like a tube there. Is that physically possible? Doubt it is.

For you Rachel317 who claims her long legs are because of her fighting style. Trust me, she wouldn't be able to do anywhere near those moves with her shoes. High heels are the worst type of shoe you can have to run around in. If we're gonna go that way at least.
You don't need ultra long legs to perform various graceful moves too.

As for the claim that the maker of the Bayonetta character didn't make her to a sex object. Really? I can't take that seriously.

Btw if they made her look something like this.

Spoiler

Which gives her a much more human look than the 3D version she might have actually gotten better response. Just saying.
All though they should still ditch high heels.
There are some weird things in that picture. The arms seems a bit weird close to the shoulders though. Dantes neck seems longer too than normal too. But that's because of the painter. But he or she still did a great job on it.


As for the male versions of the Hulk that have a gigantic body. Well the thing with him is that he's a monster.

For Duke Nukem, well the reason we don't care about his physics is because he's supposed to be VERY manly from the USA side. Where they like big things. Besides he saves our chick and punches aliens and do other things. I also think you can actually get rather close to that shape. Not 100% close but still relative close to it.


Also one reason most gamers cry out is because too many game companies specially rely on making women look like sex objects to sell the game. Bayonetta seemed to be ALL about that.
Rather than giving them good clothing they rely on removing clothes. In my opinion this is rather annoying. Why is it so hard to dress women in good clothing? :/

Fighting games seems to be ones with most sex appeal to sell though. BlazBlue, Street Fighter 2 and Guilty Gear XX series comes to mind. Only a few female characters ain't made so sexy. Also in BlazBlue you should see the art book where they show the early version of Litchi Faye-Ling. Remove 40%-60% of her current clothing and you'd get a good idea of how she looks.

If we wanted to see sexy women we use google. When we play games we want to see more interesting characters that doesn't rely on big boobs and being half nude to make up for the character.
Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2 did this just fine.
Zelda has also done this.
Tali from Mass Effect was also done well.
There are more but I can't be bothered to list them.
Darksiders Uriel was actually given a full blown armor though. Now that's something you don't see everyday.

Getting fully dressed girls is hard enough to get in games these days as well.

There are probably far better choices than Bayonetta to take as a feminist icon/Role model of any kind.

 

[Rachel317]

I honestly don't see her as a role model for girls.

Are you a girl? If not, do you REALLY feel qualified to comment? You seem wholly unable to look past the physical. On to that in a moment.

Like really, black skin tight clothes(or hair clothes more likely) with high heels and flashing monsters with her body when performing her power moves. Actually as I haven't played the game, I wonder, does she do this to any humans? Or monsters only?

Ok, my first response is that, because you haven't played the game, you're missing out on a lot of the plot points which back up what I say.

But lets take a look on some pictures of her.

We all know what she looks like, and I am getting EXTREMELY tired of countering this. The physical aspects mean nothing. We're not talking about her legs, but her personality and demeanour. Again, I'm sick of people being unable to look past her physical appearance to the heart of what I am ACTUALLY arguing.

Also one reason most gamers cry out is because too many game companies specially rely on making women look like sex objects to sell the game. Bayonetta seemed to be ALL about that.

Again, you haven't played the game, so you can't really make a justified comment here. Reading the articles, OF COURSE you're going to get a skewed view of her.

Rather than giving them good clothing they rely on removing clothes. In my opinion this is rather annoying. Why is it so hard to dress women in good clothing? :/

Bayonetta actually stays pretty much fully clothed throughout the game. The only time she becomes partially naked is when she's fighting a big boss, and her hair turns into demons. There's very little flesh even shown, because the camera doesn't actually focus on her for very long.

Now, you're entitled to your opinions, but this is from a male point of view, yes?
Speaking as a woman, I found the "losing clothes to create demons" thing to be a very artistic part of the game. If I'm not offended by it, nor are the other women who have thus far contributed to this thread, then doesn't that make our opinions as to her being a role model for FEMALES a little more justified?

If we wanted to see sexy women we use google. When we play games we want to see more interesting characters that doesn't rely on big boobs and being half nude to make up for the character.
Alyx Vance in Half-Life 2 did this just fine.
Zelda has also done this.
Tali from Mass Effect was also done well.
There are more but I can't be bothered to list them.
Darksiders Uriel was actually given a full blown armor though. Now that's something you don't see everyday.

Haven't played half life, so I can't argue with you on that, but Zelda CONSTANTLY needed saving by a MAN. This damsel in distress shit is just as damaging to the view of women as being an "I don't need ANY man" Ice Queen because, for the mot part, it's highly unrealistic.

 

[Rachel317]

I think it's a right lo' mess! The same girls who bash Lara Croft have NO problem drooling over the Prince of Persia (or at least the girls I know, have no problem).

Well, I agree with you on this, for sure. I think...the point is, men see the female characters as being objectified for their pleasure, whereas male characters aren't objectified for women, because game developers largely market to male gamers, even with the growth of female gamers.
But yes, double standards are something we ALL need to overcome before we can really move on, as there are faults on both sides. But, as I say, Lara Croft was made for males, and the Prince was made for males. There's no fan service speficially targeted at (heterosexual) females.

I just find Velma to be a "better person"; The kinda girl who puts more value on friendship than popularity. She's smart but not in your face about it, Strong but not butch and she has an interesting sense of sexuality. For instance... She wears a baggy sweater to take focus away from her bustline BUT wears a short skirt to put focus on her legs.

Also she reminds me of most of the girls I went to school with.

But this sexualisation of Velma, however unusual it is...it's still a case of fan service, if the logic of the majority of contributors to this thread is...you know, logical. She shows off her legs...so she's probably relatively sexually confident, right? You don't show off your legs if you're not confident about them, right?
So...Velma and Bayonetta are pretty similar!
1. Both are smart, but not "in your face" about it, as you say.
2. Velma puts friendships first...Bayonetta is constantly accused by Luka to have killed his father. However, she still saves him from death, and is saddened the several times she thinks that he's dead. Friendship above all else here too, right?
3. Both are sexually confident. Velma constantly has her legs out, Bayonetta stays fully clothed for the most part, only becoming partially naked when she summons he demons.

Really...are these two characters so different?

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

snip

I'm sorry but you are victimizing Bayonetta and women on the whole and trying to turn those of us who can see female stereotyping into bad guys.

This game was made to sell sex to horny nerds... That's just how it is.

Don't get pissed at me for stating the obvious.

Like, you can get as mad at you want at people for saying Lara Croft is an objectified woman character... it's still true.