Belief - When does it stop being your parents' and become your own?

[dagens24]

This is something I've been contemplating for a while and have had many an interesting pub conversation about. I want to hear all of your opinions on the subject...

I'm a big fan of a documentary called Jesus Camp. For those of you who have no seen it, I shall provide a short trailer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE

Anyway, everyone I know who has seen it or who I have shown it to has had the same reaction, 'those poor children'. They see the children as victims of indoctrination, their parents and church brainwashing them into their own belief system. So they have sympathy for the children and essentially hatred for the parents. The interesting thing is that the parents were once those children. They went through the same process, and just as they grew up to subject their children to it, so will these children grow up to subject their own children to the same indoctrination.

So my question to you all is when do your beliefs become your own. When do we stop feeling sympathy for the child and start feeling anger towards them?

This might be easier to contemplate if we look at something a little more negative such as racism. We hear the child of a racist screaming racial slurs and we pitty the child and feel anger towards the parent. That parent, however, was likely in the same position as that child and had a similar parent. So at one point does that racistly brainwashed child's views stop being his/her parents and become their own? Is it right for us to feel anger towards to child? Towards the parent? Or should be be more understanding and sympathetic to the parent who was likely brainwashed him/her self?

EDIT: When I mention these above examples I'm mostly talking about closed communities. Ones where every member has the same belief, the kids are home school and these beliefs become the central doctrine of their lives. Communities where that belief is fundamental to everything they know and if someone shows even the slightest amount of doubt towards the central beliefs then they are socially ostracized.

 

[similar.squirrel]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

 

[ssgt splatter]

First, the youtube link is broken.
Second, I only feel pity for a child when they are younger than 10 because they are still very ignorant about many things and don't fully understand what they are taking about yet; but once they get older than 11, but more realistically around 14-15, I start to feel angry towards them.

 

[Hisshiss]

After a certain point in life you become responsible for everything you believe and do. 18 is a good place to start since it applies to other things as well ;P.

Similiar.squirrel pretty much had it on the mark, once you become old enough to see what else the world has to offer, you become obligated to take responsibility for your own views, nomatter how much brainwashing you have to outgrow from your childhood.

That's just one of the challenges of growing up.

 

[Frybird]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

I agree on that, but also like to add that there are probably more than enough people who will never see these "other options" as they show no interest towards them or downright reject to see them as a consequence of thier parent's indoctrination..

The Question of who should be judged, the parent or the child, oftentimes just cannot be answered, at least not 100% correctly. So unfortunately(?) we just have to assume in most cases that a mature person made his beliefs his own...

 

[similar.squirrel]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

I agree on that, but also like to add that there are probably more than enough people who will never see these "other options" as they show no interest towards them or downright reject to see them as a consequence of thier parent's indoctrination..

That's the tricky part, yes. The thing about any belief is that it is inherently insecure, and will try to preserve itself by covering up the other options.

 

[JoJo]

I'd say that once someone is past their early teens they're old enough to make up their own mind, that is the age when a lot of people question the beliefs they have been taught and certainly once someone is an adult they are mature enough to decide for themselves. No-one is stuck as a racist, or as an extremist, due to upbringing, if that was true then there would be far more racists and homophobes in the population considering past attitudes.

 

[chocolatekake]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

Agreed.

If I had to give a specific when, then high school at the very latest. That's about when most kids start becoming more independent of their parents. I think every person should at some point in their life go through a crisis of sorts where they either redefine or solidify what they think and feel about things like religion. And I'm not going to lie, that movie looks too terrifying to actually watch.

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

I agree on that, but also like to add that there are probably more than enough people who will never see these "other options" as they show no interest towards them or downright reject to see them as a consequence of thier parent's indoctrination..

That's the tricky part, yes. The thing about any belief is that it is inherently insecure, and will try to preserve itself by covering up the other options.

the saddest part about that, at least as it pertains to Christianity, is that it even says in the Bible that we are to keep testing and seeking, to be sure we are on the right path (2 Corinthians 13:5,6 if anyone cares).

personally, i went through my crisis of faith between 17 and 20. but even now, i'm always examining to be sure not only am i worthy of my god, but that my god is worthy of my belief.

*edit* a very sad secondary effect of the non-application of 2 Corinthians 13:5,6 is that if people did read and apply that scripture, they'd realize how self-defeating it is to try to force faith on others via law or violence.

 

[dagens24]

I understand the whole rejecting of other opinions concept, but with children like this these beliefs that their parents teach them are so deeply ingrained that the idea of foreign contradictory ideas actually being recieved isn't realistic. These kids eat, breath and sleep their parents beliefs. They are in isolated communities where the slightest bit of differing opinion can lead to becoming a total social outcast. To reject these beliefs is to reject EVERYTHING they know and love. They are too invested in these beliefs to question them or to accept that their are other view points out there. And then they grow up and force this lifestyle upon their children all the while thinking they are in the right. So yes, they might be presented with opositional ideas but can we fault them for closing their eyes and covering their ears?

I guess what I'm trying to say is when you look at what they have to give up in order to grow out of their misguided beliefs it becomes harder to faul them for refusing alternative points of view.

 

[Lilani]

It's easy to look at these kids and say they're being manipulated, but those camps aren't the only "forced doctrines" in society. Look at Amish communities. They're all blocked off in their own corner of society, and they raise their children to be that way too. They aren't even allowed to go certain places. And then they have that recess when they hit that certain age where they go off to live in modern society for a few months, to see if they want to continue being Amish. Most of them go back if I remember correctly, but a good percentage end up leaving.

To me, it seems these kids have even more freedom than the Amish. I mean, at least they have more ways to get away when they get older and begin to develop their own opinions on things. And sure, you can try to say that the kids are so far "gone" that by the time they hit adulthood their ability to make decisions on beliefs is permanently skewed, but really there is no way of knowing whether or not that is so.

Everybody has influences in throughout their life that shape their belief systems. And I think to say that one certain influence is "wrong" just because they give it out in higher doses sets a bad precedent. A woman in that video mentioned that kids in Pakistan are taken to similar camps, where they have grenades put in their hands. But until the kids are actually given grenades, or they start teaching and promoting violence they should just be left alone.

 

[Madara XIII]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

Agreed.

If I had to give a specific when, then high school at the very latest. That's about when most kids start becoming more independent of their parents. I think every person should at some point in their life go through a crisis of sorts where they either redefine or solidify what they think and feel about things like religion. And I'm not going to lie, that movie looks too terrifying to actually watch.

Indeed. The same thing happened with me and my religion around my last 2 years of highschool.
Basically a person is left to find what they believe on their own. I may be a christian, yet most of my beliefs on it don't coincide with the mass majority of others, such as not judging others and actually staying true to the whole love your enemy bit.

So in an ironic way I broke away from my religion only to find what I want most in it's original and core ideas and beliefs of love and peace that have nearly been lost rather than the modern judgemental and institutionalized church that does what it can to make you feel guilty just for being alive.

I'm a Christian with an attitude *Puts on sunglasses* >8D

 

[Azaraxzealot]

when you join the internet

EDIT: Or go to college. whichever comes first

 

[Burwood123]

The fact that these kids are fed this bullshit, and are destined to since before they were born, and hell before countless generations of thier family have been, is simply wrong, morally, ethically, their parents have no idea how much of a handicap these kids are getitng in their lives, sure some bright sparks will disobey, but the kids shown is jesus camp? They believe with verbatim that their and only their belief system is correct. They have no knowledge of the universe the fact that seperation is an illusion and we are all the same consiuosness. Religion and not mankind is the disease of humanity.

 

[Madara XIII]

When the child has seen and rejected the other options available.

I agree on that, but also like to add that there are probably more than enough people who will never see these "other options" as they show no interest towards them or downright reject to see them as a consequence of thier parent's indoctrination..

That's the tricky part, yes. The thing about any belief is that it is inherently insecure, and will try to preserve itself by covering up the other options.

the saddest part about that, at least as it pertains to Christianity, is that it even says in the Bible that we are to keep testing and seeking, to be sure we are on the right path (2 Corinthians 13:5,6 if anyone cares).

personally, i went through my crisis of faith between 17 and 20. but even now, i'm always examining to be sure not only am i worthy of my god, but that my god is worthy of my belief.

Yep same here. Had it not been for C.S. Lewis' readings I may not be a christian. And yes it is trialing at times when you stop and really think about your beliefs and not only your view on it, but the Worlds view.

 

[BENZOOKA]

Whenever the person challenges and re-evaluates the beliefs/views that have been instilled/pounded/suggested to him/her.

This may happen whenever; at a young age or never.

 

[dagens24]

Sorry guys, just to make it more clear what I was talking about. When I mention these above examples I'm mostly talking about closed communities. Ones where every member has the same belief, the kids are home school and these beliefs become the central doctrine of their lives. Communities where that belief is fundamental to everything they know and if someone shows even the slightest amount of doubt towards the central beliefs then they are socially ostracized.

 

[Madara XIII]

The fact that these kids are fed this bullshit, and are destined to since before they were born, and hell before countless generations of thier family have been, is simply wrong, morally, ethically, their parents have no idea how much of a handicap these kids are getitng in their lives, sure some bright sparks will disobey, but the kids shown is jesus camp? They believe with verbatim that their and only their belief system is correct. They have no knowledge of the universe the fact that seperation is an illusion and we are all the same consiuosness. Religion and not mankind is the disease of humanity.

Well that depends on how you look at it. Religion as an institution does indeed suck my good man and I think we've all learned from the Muslims and the Catholic Church of the shit that can go down due to such zealous beliefs, I do feel that religion as a whole is not bad and is useful in establishing morals. It's the teaching of it that really gets my boxers in a knot.
The condescending attitudes, the holier than thou, the pure act of pursecuiting others who don't agree with you all make those who have a belief look like a bleeding idiot.

There are some intelligent religious people in the world just like there are atheists who are decent people yet it is the overbearing nutjobs that represent those of any religious faith that pass on this social stigma for years to come :/

 

[Jamboxdotcom]

Sorry guys, just to make it more clear what I was talking about. When I mention these above examples I'm mostly talking about closed communities. Ones where every member has the same belief, the kids are home school and these beliefs become the central doctrine of their lives. Communities where that belief is fundamental to everything they know and if someone shows even the slightest amount of doubt towards the central beliefs then they are socially ostracized.

well, yeah, but really before a certain age, all communities are a closed community. i understand your question, but i'd posit that the answer would be largely the same whether in a closed or open community.