Biden accused of bribing electorate in relation to Georgia election

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Houseman

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Moving the discussion from the other thread to this one...

Clap, Clap. Great recital

Also, did not answer my question at all. Here I'll reword it.

What SPECIFIC issue did the media miss about Biden's $2000 'pledge'?
Nothing, it's technically true. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it's technically true.
 

Baffle

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Isn't this precisely what right-wing nutjobs say every damn time a group of opposing politicians try to help their struggling citizens? It is! It is what they say every damn time. 🙄🙄🙄
See broadband, communist (see also home-schooling; pandemic; pretending to care about under-served communities because you really want to go to the pub)
 
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Cheetodust

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Right, but that's Marxism, a specific form of communism (as well as the surrounding theories of how society will/should get there). Communism as an ideology also existed apart from Marx, and had been formulated and described by other thinkers before he and Engels did so in the Communist Manifesto.

He did not invent Communism; he formulated one theory of it, which then went on to hold great sway over the European and Asian Communist movements. But other formulations existed, and not all involve an abolition of government.
Fair, we are entering into my opinion on what constitutes real communism here so I won't push that particular
point but I will stand by the fact that China and Korea having very clear examples of a ruling class and the workers having no control of their country very clearly precludes them from being communist in anything other than name.
 

Revnak

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"The interference of the state power in social relations becomes superfluous in one sphere after another, and then ceases of itself. The government of persons is replaced by the administration of things and the direction of the processes of production. The state is not "abolished", it withers away."

-Engels
Strongly disagree with Engels there.
We'll he's a big admirer of communist regimes so it was there or China.
You say that like I care enough about the existence of so deplorable an entity as a nation to be offended by that.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
A communist society would be a stateless, classless society. How do you figure a ruling class fits into that?
What exactly does a stateless classless society mean?
 

Cheetodust

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Strongly disagree with Engels there.
Well yeah same, like I said the idea that the state will just play itself out once it's time is up is historically never what happens when people are given undue power. It was mostly just to highlight the communist ideal of statelessness.
 

Seanchaidh

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What exactly does a stateless classless society mean?
A class is a group of people that share a position in society. So, for example, a society might have lords and serfs. The lords (or perhaps more precisely the nobility) are a class. The serfs are a class. For Marx, classes tend to (try to) act in their own interests (at least eventually), and they do so in opposition to other classes; those other classes have opposing interests. This is called class antagonism or class struggle. To be clear, for Marx, this antagonism is a defining characteristic of social classes. A peasant revolt that demands the cancellation of all debts and a redistribution of the land is an example of class struggle. And so is the use of debt and property ownership to control the peasantry. Of course there is the familiar analysis of the proletariat and bourgeoisie; the bourgeoisie struggles to maintain its power over the proletariat while the proletariat struggles to survive, improve its lot, coordinate with each other, and overthrow the control of the bourgeoisie.

A classless society, for Marx and Engels, is a society without class antagonism or class struggle because the possible sociological groupings you might try to use to analyze the society would not be ones that contend with each other; while you could probably still sort people into categories, those categories would not have the quality of having opposing interests that result in a degree of hostility.

A stateless society is one without an authority that relies on monopolizing the legitimate (whatever 'legitimate' is supposed to mean) use of force. A stateless classless society combines these two, though it is hard to imagine having a state without having some degree of class antagonism.
 
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Silvanus

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Fair, we are entering into my opinion on what constitutes real communism here so I won't push that particular
point but I will stand by the fact that China and Korea having very clear examples of a ruling class and the workers having no control of their country very clearly precludes them from being communist in anything other than name.
I'd fully agree with you about North Korea & China. Not specifically because they have governments, but because they're so rigidly hierarchical, totalitarian and anti-egalitarian, that they cannot be considered to be following any recognisable socialist/communist doctrine.
 

Seanchaidh

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The very obvious reply here is that the $2000 is promised to (more or less) everyone, not just voters, and more precisely, not just voters for Democrats in the Georgia special elections. If this counts, so does every campaign promise that would result in an expenditure that for any reason reaches any number of people who can vote.
 

Revnak

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Well yeah same, like I said the idea that the state will just play itself out once it's time is up is historically never what happens when people are given undue power. It was mostly just to highlight the communist ideal of statelessness.
Engels kinda sucked ass and misunderstood Marx’s definition of the state and the Dictatorship of the Proletariat. It’s almost like he wanted to be everything Bakunin accused Marx of being aside from a scheming Jew.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
A class is a group of people that share a position in society. So, for example, a society might have lords and serfs. The lords (or perhaps more precisely the nobility) are a class. The serfs are a class. For Marx, classes tend to (try to) act in their own interests (at least eventually), and they do so in opposition to other classes; those other classes have opposing interests. This is called class antagonism or class struggle. To be clear, for Marx, this antagonism is a defining characteristic of social classes. A peasant revolt that demands the cancellation of all debts and a redistribution of the land is an example of class struggle. And so is the use of debt and property ownership to control the peasantry. Of course there is the familiar analysis of the proletariat and bourgeoisie; the bourgeoisie struggles to maintain its power over the proletariat while the proletariat struggles to survive, improve its lot, coordinate with each other, and overthrow the control of the bourgeoisie.

A classless society, for Marx and Engels, is a society without class antagonism or class struggle because the possible sociological groupings you might try to use to analyze the society would not be ones that contend with each other; while you could probably still sort people into categories, those categories would not have the quality of having opposing interests that result in a degree of hostility.

A stateless society is one without an authority that relies on monopolizing the legitimate (whatever 'legitimate' is supposed to mean) use of force. A stateless classless society combines these two, though it is hard to imagine having a state without having some degree of class antagonism.
I don't know about classless since it seems like we don't have the same ridged class structure we had in the past with serfs and such. I mean you could argue that upper middle and lower classes based on income would fit but, still seems messy compared to what it was.

The stateless one there seems pretty libertarian to me. Like each person then becomes responsible for their own use of force against those they think require said application of force.
 

Seanchaidh

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I don't know about classless since it seems like we don't have the same ridged class structure we had in the past with serfs and such.
Some people own productive assets and needn't work at all; whether through the magic of the stock market or more directly, they can simply have others do the work for them while they reap the reward. The most successful (at utilizing that exploitative relationship) among these people rapidly concentrate the wealth of society into their own hands.
Other people have nothing to sell but their labor. They create the wealth of the first group.

It is true that the class structure is not directly codified in law such that laborers are legally prohibited from owning productive assets that they could in theory use to become a capitalist. Instead, the barrier is typically economic. It is not always purely economic, as racial and other forms of discrimination tend to exist in capitalist societies.
 
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Revnak

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You guys seem to have this great grand idea in your heads of the ultimately communist society, if you can't even spell it out then its doomed to fail.
I’m not spelling it out to you because you’re a rich white dude that I’ve little investment in.
 
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Cheetodust

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You guys seem to have this great grand idea in your heads of the ultimately communist society, if you can't even spell it out then its doomed to fail.
Man, countless books have been written by very wordy men. It's not succinct and it's not simple. Asking a French Revolutionary to lay out their entire outline for a representative democracy and how society would function without a monarchy in a few paragraphs would be as difficult as asking us to quickly sum up how an entire society would run. Any brief description I give will have holes in it because I couldn't begin to cover everything without writing pages and pages.

The Conquest of Bread, The Communist Manifesto or, if you want something more modern, Leaderless Revolution or anything by Chomsky. They don't write books on this shit because it's easy to sum up in a couple of paragraphs. You're own self-inflicted ignorance is not a point against anarchism, communism, socialism or anything else you'd like to throw in. If you're going to have strong feelings about how wrong an ideology is read a single word of what it's proponents have to say about it.
 

Revnak

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The Conquest of Bread, The Communist Manifesto or, if you want something more modern, Leaderless Revolution or anything by Chomsky.
Kropotkin is probably the most digestible for mr. YouTube, so I’ll second the conquest of bread rec. LibriVox even has a decent audiobook of it.
Edit: let’s make this as easy as possible
 
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