Big Jiggly Boobs in Games... is it really worth all the QQing?

[Magicman10893]

Again, those things really stand the test of time (though Kenny, I'm not too sure). Darth Vader is cloaked in a black, metallic suit. In the most basic sense, it symbolizes darkness and evil, and painting him bright red or something would probably betray his character. Laura does not stand the test of time. She is a product of the 90s culture of mullets, motorcycles, and mammary.

With that, I think we've come to a close with this discussion. We both get each other's points, so continuing from here will probably just result in going around in circles. Thanks for the discussion, my fingers were getting twitchy from no typing

Darth Vader might be a bad example, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say. They are a big part of her character's appearance and without them it seems like like something is a bit off. I'm trying to think of a better example but all this talk of Lara's breasts is a bit distracting.

 

[chibivash]

i've never been interested in tomb raider before. i'd play it at a friends house a few times. never like the contorls, very clunky. but this reboot looks interesting to me. i'll probably follow it for a bit longer, see if the game play is good or not.

You should try Guardian of Light. Very fluid controls.[/quote]

i actually just bought it on steam. i haven't gotten around to it yet though, since i bought a few other games on steam as well. guess i can play it now.

 

[Jumplion]

Being easily thrilled and childlike can be a charming characteristic. More appealing than applying a sort of fake cynicism to things based on a superficial judgement anyway. It's a characteristic of a person with an open, friendly attitude.

Which Tomb Raider is not, it's just a product of the 90s. That's just giving the Tomb Raider games a bit too much credit in my opinion.

Not sure what you are responding to here. You were saying that games shouldn't be made for people who are easily amused and not mature because those people suck. I say that those people don't suck and a lot of young people of both genders, and young at heart people, had a lot of fun with Tomb Raider games.

I'm not saying that games shouldn't be made for easily amused/immature people (I don't mean immature as childish, keep that in mind), it certainly has it's place, but doing so nowadays, especially considering that the Tomb Raider games have been doing so for the past decade, just comes off like they're cashing in on cheap thrills. There are certainly worse games that do this besides Tomb Raider, but as far as I'm concerned the Tomb Raider games are in desperate need of an overhaul not just in the character of Laura, but in gameplay, storytelling, and mechanics.

 

[[.redacted]]

It is important, as it essentially makes the game something you cannot mention in good company.

It doesn't matter how good the story/gameplay is, if there are massive boobs on the cover, that's all people will associate with the game.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

Being easily thrilled and childlike can be a charming characteristic. More appealing than applying a sort of fake cynicism to things based on a superficial judgement anyway. It's a characteristic of a person with an open, friendly attitude.

Which Tomb Raider is not, it's just a product of the 90s. That's just giving the Tomb Raider games a bit too much credit in my opinion.

Well gee, if we are going to push away those old tropes and change her, why is it we always stop at the "Sexual" maturity thing, while ramping up the violence in games? This is why the Jack Thompsons of the world always have fresh ammo with which to strike at our community with, dismissing our claims of being a true art form... because we simply trade one fad for another.

For example, I mean, while we are rebooting Lara to make her more realistic (which ironically, turning her into a slim, athletic euro-supermodel isn't exactly beating down the "realism" door either), then why stop at her chest hams? Let's go the full gambit... Let's make her an African, whose father was a wealthy and respected tribal leader who fought apartheid. Let's make her a little thicker in the thighs, give her facial tattoos and body art, and make her a lesbian. That way, we've now brought ALL the much needed changes to really give this series an edgy, modern rebirth. Oh, and let's have her enjoy smoking pot on the side, and obsessed with cutting things with her titanium motorized butterfly knives.

What? I wonder why the developers didn't consider doing THAT? Hmmmmm... certainly if they wanted to be truly wanting a different direction that is more real, and that will connect to newer, younger, hipper audiences, instead of those old, tired, 90's throwbacks. In fact, changing BOOBS is the thing the industry needs to concentrate on doing the LEAST. Let's first try to make characters where the women aren't all WHITE, and then we can work on making them not so much sex symbols that sell games off shelves.

But if you think this sexploitation of women in games is a big issue, then we haven't even begun to scratch the surface. This medium has a LONG way to go before it sheds some of the stigmas associated with it.

But in defense of Lara and Tomb Raider as a brand...

Take this girl's poster and put it up with no labels, no names, and no titles in a place where people will walk by and take a poll of how many people will know who it is... Half of them will probably say "that chick from Resident Evil."

Now take the old, silly 90's Lara craft from the last game she was in (a great game in my opinion by the way) and I'm confident twice if not three or four times as many people will recognize her almost instantly.

Brand recognition can be a good thing. Ever wonder how it is Sonic games keep getting made?
Yeah.

 

[Something Amyss]

Okay, so I "get" that some game developers went through a period of shameful exploration (or is it exploitation?) of the beautiful, round, over the shoulder boulder holders that the fairer sex taunts us with incessantly. But are people making TOO much of a big deal about it? Is it REALLY that offensive?

If you've seen the pictures of the "newly designed" Lara croft (made to look more "gritty, and emotionally realistic... the new fad in Hollywood and games), then you'll understand my sort of concern that we may be taking things too far in the other direction. To me, some characters are simply meant to look a certain way. It's part of their identity. If Wonder Woman was suddenly reduced to a B-cup, she would become odd looking, not familiar or comfortable. Lara, whom I have played as and enjoyed since the very first Tomb Raider... Ok yeah, those boobs weren't always tastefully presented, but while they were definitely eye candy for some, I don't feel that they overshadowed Lara's IDENTITY as a character. She was still this super smart, super savvy, super kick ass first true super heroine of video games that could turn you on as quickly as she could snap your neck.
Does the redesign really need to turn her into an emo-looking, angsty, Twilight saga reject? Even more to the point... All of this talk of turning her into an emotional, slightly insecure, horror movie survival type girl who at first cries and shivers and acts desperately and then is stronger for it leaves me a bit concerned. I'm all for deeper characters, but is the answer to her being a "sex" symbol to take her the complete opposite direction and make her severely "vulnerable?" Lara, while buxom was always a rather strong feminine character, and while I'm sure there is some merit to the argument that she (as a role model) might have encouraged those unrealistic expectations of the female form, trying to turn her into an "every woman" type character doesn't exactly feel as if it's going to accomplish much either, other than to make a large number of insecure women who don't like being reminded of how physically inadequate they might be compared to other girls feel a bit vindicated.

So what say you, Escapist community? Is the "big boobs", "women as visual sexual objects" stuff truly as relevant as it's being made out to be, or should we stop being so sensitive about the whole issue?

Is there really that much of a response to this? I mean, it seems like arguing the "controversy" of leeches as a medical practice a century after it fell from practice.

 

[TheNewDemoman]

You know a think it's a stereotype, that women's breasts determine there attractiveness, and if they have huge shoulder boulders. Then everyone needs to complain

Lilith (Borderlands) in my opinion is the most attractive video game girl out there. And she didn't have a huge chest.

Also know seemed to freak out about her too.

 

[Worgen]

if a game features large breasted woman as a selling point like the laura croft or doa beach vollyball games, i wont buy it.

are all big boobs bad tho? I mean cant a woman have more then a b cup naturally in a game?

 

[Rath709]

Thread title makes me sad.

 

[Lokithrsourcerer]

most games I have played sporting "giggle physics" are dumb just make boobs look weird like jelly in 0G.

What's QQing by the way

 

[HyenaThePirate]

Is there really that much of a response to this? I mean, it seems like arguing the "controversy" of leeches as a medical practice a century after it fell from practice.

Actually it seems to be a pretty relevant topic. And it is a discussion I feel probably should be had openly as our medium improves. Essentially you seem to have several different camps in gaming: People who like things as realistic as possible, people who prefer story over gameplay, people who prefer gameplay mechanics over story, people who like their games to be as fun and escapist as possible, people who enjoy camp, people who enjoy deep RPG experiences, people who enjoy JRPGs... and people who take the visual presentation of games to be the most important aspect, which can sometimes boil over into the debate on content over things like sex, ultraviolence, and other adult themes. To me, actually it seems like games have ramped the violence and gore up a few notches, while the thought of showing side boob makes some people incredibly offended.

So yeah, I think it's relevant to talk about. You know what isn't relevant to the discussion? Complaining about people discussing something you had no intention of discussing.

most games I have played sporting "giggle physics" are dumb just make boobs look weird like jelly in 0G.

What's QQing by the way

Crying. Whinging. Tearfully complaining. Being butt-hurt.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

I'm not saying that games shouldn't be made for easily amused/immature people (I don't mean immature as childish, keep that in mind), it certainly has it's place, but doing so nowadays, especially considering that the Tomb Raider games have been doing so for the past decade, just comes off like they're cashing in on cheap thrills. There are certainly worse games that do this besides Tomb Raider, but as far as I'm concerned the Tomb Raider games are in desperate need of an overhaul not just in the character of Laura, but in gameplay, storytelling, and mechanics.

Crystal Dynamics has already done a really good job in my opinion so I'm not going to complain in advance about them making more changes. Like it or not, however, Lara Croft is still the most recognisable female game character according the Guinness book of records. How much of an image change the character needs isn't exactly up to you or even Square but to the people who know the character and buy the games.

Is there really that much of a response to this? I mean, it seems like arguing the "controversy" of leeches as a medical practice a century after it fell from practice.

Leeches are still being used for some things. They are a very safe and effective way of improving blood circulation and dealing with blood clots.

 

[mrwoo6]

Hmm I believe my Avatar would have something to say on the subject XD

I would LOVE to hear what your avatar would say about this. that would be most amuseing.

Both sides of this are valid. you just need to know were to draw the line.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

No offense, but I could give a rat's ass what Urbandictionary and 4000 hair-splitting nerds think. At the risk of sounding Yogi Berra-esque, it means what it means. Gay once meant (and technically still means) festive. But if somebody now says "you're gay", it's hardly likely they're celebrating your ability to party. (Well, maybe in a way - but you know what I mean.)

Think logically about it. Somebody says "QQ moar". Are they saying "quit more", or "cry more"? Which one makes more sense? Quit's not really a quantitative meaure, is it. Once you quit, you've quit. Can't really quit more. But people can cry a lot more - trust me.

So, regardless of what anybody with a chip on their shoulder about the meaning of QQ has to say, it now means cry, and is used almost exclusively that way by anyone not trying to make a pretentious point.


And if anyone doesn't like it, they can QQ moar.

The word "gay" has changed meanings over time, but it wasn't because people didn't know what it meant. I think everybody knows gay means merry and describes someone who is homosexual even though they use it to basically mean lame.

QQ on the other hand started to be used as crying because that's what people thought it meant, not because they knew it meant quit playing and wanted to change it's meaning or give it another meaning. It was due to ignorance that QQ became known as crying and not because it naturally evolved like the word "gay." If you don't know what something means, then you shouldn't use it until you do. There's no excuse for ignorance.

 

[mrwoo6]

No offense, but I could give a rat's ass what Urbandictionary and 4000 hair-splitting nerds think. At the risk of sounding Yogi Berra-esque, it means what it means. Gay once meant (and technically still means) festive. But if somebody now says "you're gay", it's hardly likely they're celebrating your ability to party. (Well, maybe in a way - but you know what I mean.)

Think logically about it. Somebody says "QQ moar". Are they saying "quit more", or "cry more"? Which one makes more sense? Quit's not really a quantitative meaure, is it. Once you quit, you've quit. Can't really quit more. But people can cry a lot more - trust me.

So, regardless of what anybody with a chip on their shoulder about the meaning of QQ has to say, it now means cry, and is used almost exclusively that way by anyone not trying to make a pretentious point.


And if anyone doesn't like it, they can QQ moar.

The word "gay" has changed meanings over time, but it wasn't because people didn't know what it meant. I think everybody knows gay means merry and describes someone who is homosexual even though they use it to basically mean lame.

QQ on the other hand started to be used as crying because that's what people thought it meant, not because they knew it meant quit playing and wanted to change it's meaning or give it another meaning. It was due to ignorance that QQ became known as crying and not because it naturally evolved like the word "gay." If you don't know what something means, then you shouldn't use it until you do. There's no excuse for ignorance.

I'm sorry, but who came along and said that unless a word changes properly and by the rules its not a changed word. it doesn't matter if its ignorance, or a language change, or merely time. the word still changed. people now use it in a different way that it was used before. if people start using the word fish to mean cow, just because of ignorance it doesn't matter. people now call cow's fish and calling a cow a cow will still get you funny looks.

 

[Jumplion]

Crystal Dynamics has already done a really good job in my opinion so I'm not going to complain in advance about them making more changes. Like it or not, however, Lara Croft is still the most recognisable female game character according the Guinness book of records. How much of an image change the character needs isn't exactly up to you or even Square but to the people who know the character and buy the games.

Well, we'll just have to see how they handle the new reboot then. Honestly, I have yet to play any Tomb Raider game, so I'm sure some of my comments should be taken with a grain or two of salt, but we'll see.

Well gee, if we are going to push away those old tropes and change her, why is it we always stop at the "Sexual" maturity thing, while ramping up the violence in games? This is why the Jack Thompsons of the world always have fresh ammo with which to strike at our community with, dismissing our claims of being a true art form... because we simply trade one fad for another.

I hadn't really talked about the violence in the Tomb Raider games, soooooo....strawman? I mean, from what I read in the article, they did state that death would have a weight to it.

For example, I mean, while we are rebooting Lara to make her more realistic (which ironically, turning her into a slim, athletic euro-supermodel isn't exactly beating down the "realism" door either), then why stop at her chest hams? Let's go the full gambit... Let's make her an African, whose father was a wealthy and respected tribal leader who fought apartheid. Let's make her a little thicker in the thighs, give her facial tattoos and body art, and make her a lesbian. That way, we've now brought ALL the much needed changes to really give this series an edgy, modern rebirth. Oh, and let's have her enjoy smoking pot on the side, and obsessed with cutting things with her titanium motorized butterfly knives.

I wouldn't say they're making her more "realistic", just more "believable". They're not going from the "gritty, edgy, realistic, emo" stuff that you're claiming they are, at least I hope they're not. From what I'm reading, they seem to be trying to give Laura much more emotional depth than she had in previous games, giving her an actual personality. Again, look back at my statement before, how the hell is she supposed to react in her situation?

And those changes you proposed might as well be an entirely new character. The only true, definite differences in this new Laura are her age, figure, and emotion. Otherwise, she's still the Laura we know and love, just slimmer. Making her African, a tribeswoman, and a lesbian might as well be an entirely new character. And who knows, maybe that character would have great depth to it.

What? I wonder why the developers didn't consider doing THAT? Hmmmmm... certainly if they wanted to be truly wanting a different direction that is more real, and that will connect to newer, younger, hipper audiences, instead of those old, tired, 90's throwbacks. In fact, changing BOOBS is the thing the industry needs to concentrate on doing the LEAST. Let's first try to make characters where the women aren't all WHITE, and then we can work on making them not so much sex symbols that sell games off shelves.

Are you really complaining that Laura's boobs aren't big anymore? Because that's what I'm getting here.

Okay, okay, that's unfair, but I don't think we should concentrate on one aspect over the other. If we work on sexploitation, then diversity in women in games can follow and vice versa.

But if you think this sexploitation of women in games is a big issue, then we haven't even begun to scratch the surface. This medium has a LONG way to go before it sheds some of the stigmas associated with it.

I never for a second thought that this was the sole issue for games, and it's silly to do so. I even stated that it's not restricted to women, men are hypersexualized all the time.

Take this girl's poster and put it up with no labels, no names, and no titles in a place where people will walk by and take a poll of how many people will know who it is... Half of them will probably say "that chick from Resident Evil."

Now take the old, silly 90's Lara craft from the last game she was in (a great game in my opinion by the way) and I'm confident twice if not three or four times as many people will recognize her almost instantly.

So? Why should that matter? Isn't that what reboots are for? Has it ever occurred to you that maybe brand recognition is not enough to save the Tomb Raider franchise from complete [http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/tomb-raider-underworld] global [http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/tomb-raider-anniversary] saturation [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrawJosmfP8] failure? I don't want to say that those games are horrible, but they certainly have stagnated over the years.

Brand recognition can be a good thing. Ever wonder how it is Sonic games keep getting made?
Yeah.

That [http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/sonic-free-riders] doesn't [http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/sonic-the-hedgehog-4-episode-1] really [http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/sonic-unleashed] help [http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii/sonic-and-the-black-knight] your [http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/sonic-adventure] point [http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/sonic-the-hedgehog]

 

[3AM]

My thing is the practicality of large jiggling breasts. Were that me running around adventuring and saving things I'd be wearing a comfortable and supportive bra, most likely a sports bra. Do you guys like running around without a bit of support? Doesn't it hurt after awhile? Same with females. It hurts so we take steps to prevent that pain.

That's what lets me as a female feel a bit left out in game design. It doesn't upset me or prevent my enjoyment of games, but I do smile approvingly when I see a female character dressed appropriately for the situation.

 

[Paragon Fury]

My thing is the practicality of large jiggling breasts. Were that me running around adventuring and saving things I'd be wearing a comfortable and supportive bra, most likely a sports bra. Do you guys like running around without a bit of support? Doesn't it hurt after awhile? Same with females. It hurts so we take steps to prevent that pain.

That's what lets me as a female feel a bit left out in game design. It doesn't upset me or prevent my enjoyment of games, but I do smile approvingly when I see a female character dressed appropriately for the situation.

Unless we're playing a contact-heavy sport, men don't usually wear anything by their groin; its just annoying and impedes really impedes movement, even more so than having large breasts (for a female) would. Even in combat, the armor that protects the groin is actually an attachment for the chest/waist armor that sits just in front, rather than on or in the groin for most armor systems.