Bioware choices (here we go again)

[Blachman201_v1legacy]

The Bioware approach of "Make every playthrough of one game essentially the same because people don't replay much" is bad enough but don't bring in these giant possibilities at the end of a game just to end up with "no fuck u lol nothing matters 4 u"

I feel that that attitude is summed up in this post by David Gaider: http://dgaider.tumblr.com/post/52199343217/on-bringing-them-back

The TL;DR version is basically: "If character that died in a previous game only appears in a cameo, they are only 'sort of alive' and not 'alive alive'!" It pretty much comes across as a massive exercise in cognitive dissonance on his part, where he on hand says that he disregards player choices when writing a story, but on the other refuses to directly admitting that he ignores player choices, because "UR CHOICES MATTERS 4 REALZ!!1!" Also he apparently doesn't know what the word "cameo" means.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

Not surprised. Proper choices and consequences takes a lot more effort than practically anyone in the industry would bother with. If your choices have the wide-ranging effects you want, it basically means they have to construct a number of different, diverging storylines and take everything into account. So instead they cheat and just minimise the effect of your choice as much as possible. Characters that die coming back to life in the next game or being replaced by a character with the same function, or having their narrative role greatly diminished so your effect on them doesn't have to be accounted for is all fairly typical. The only reason I though ME might have done it was it was the entire point of the series, that the choices would matter, but given they copped out even there I hardly expect any decent choice carryover from any game anymore.

It's all very well to say it's better integrity if NPCs have their own characters and motivations and are almost better characters for not being affected by your decisions, but that's not the point. In a game the player character chooses things in, the player character should see wide-ranging consequences of those, just so it's interesting for the player. Otherwise there's no feedback. You don't get to see your morals reflected in the game world.

 

[Alarien]

If there was any one thing that would eventually lead me to quit gaming, it wouldn't be the games. It would be the fans.

That's not going to happen, because I do have the ability to be a game playing hermit, but, god. Our community is starting to sound worse than a bunch of art paradigm "me-too" hangers on.

Can you at least wait for the game to come out to hate it?

 

[TheRookie8]

I'm beginning to think that this is why some studios uphold a strict code on releasing specific information on a game prior to release (Rockstar).

If you try to go for hype, you run the risk of alienating your audience.

It seems Laidlaw is trying to be as honest and transparent about this game without giving out too much information...you know, in response to the previous game the masses still won't shut up about...and while that's appreciated, it's causing people to attack every sentence and word with the criticism one gives to the final draft of a national peace treaty.

I'm not saying they shouldn't advertise, but they definitely shouldn't reveal aspects of the plot, seeing as that is their bread-and-butter. People are too sensitive about that stuff.

 

[TheRookie8]

For those too lazy to click on links:

I'm not sure where the "but even if they refuse, the other Grey Wardens of the world may not have the same resolve..." comes from. Speculation on the part of the article writer, perhaps? Regardless, if the player refused the Dark Ritual then it was refused. There is no Old God Baby.

He hasn't left himself the slightest amount of wiggle room there.

Even if Alistair or Loghain don't do it, Riordan might have given in to Morrigan's charms. He was around at the time.

Old god Baby is too much of a good plot to just be ignored.

If Riordan had, then the Warden in question would have successfully slayed the Archdemon without dying, because the Archdemon's essence would have zipped straight to Morrigan and her child.

You know people...there are still plenty of Archdemon's for Morrigan to pick from. They might still be underground, but they're there.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Oh yeah I suppose so. Retcon will probably happen, keeping the Warden alive regardless and Old God Baby as canon.

Well, the 'canon' they went with is a Dalish Elf Warden sat Alistair on the throne and died killing the Archdemon. Hawke was a mage and sided with the mages.

Spoiler: Where I learned this.

So if they went with the canon, Morrigan's god-child is an impossibility. Unless they decided that another blight occurred somewhere else and Morrigan was present and had the dark ritual performed before that Archdemon was slain.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

Ehh, I don't care about Morrigan and Cthulhubaby any-more.

I wouldn't be surprised if they did this particular asspull manoeuvre although, the notion that Bioware is a quality studio faded awhile back.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

You know people...there are still plenty of Archdemon's for Morrigan to pick from. They might still be underground, but they're there.

The old gods are, yes. But they aren't actually turned into Archdemons until the darkspawn find and taint them. When an Archdemon is slain by anyone other than a Grey Warden, the soul seeks out the nearest darkspawn and and is reborn from that body. This is possible because darkspawn are soulless creatures. Because a Grey Warden is not, the Grey Warden is killed and the Archdemon destroyed.

This is speculation on my part, but without that taint, the soul isn't going to seek out a darkspawn to be reborn from and isn't going to seek out Morrigan's baby if slain. The darkspawn are the ones that can hear and actively seek out the Old Gods. When they do, it's immediately afflicted with the taint, waking up twisted and corrupted. It's because of this that I find it highly unlikely that Morrigan will find and kill another Old God with a warden in tow, before the darkspawn get their hands on it. Thus, another Blight would begin before Morrigan has the opportunity to perform the Dark Ritual.

Because of that, if the canon is to be believed, Morrigan's god-baby is a complete impossibility. It cannot exist in any feasible way, unless retconned into the story.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Right now, I just wish that people would move on from these "MAKE A CHOICE AND COMPLETELY CHANGE THE GAME" plot gimmicks. Focus on writing one good story for an RPG, and if you want to have moral choice in the game, make it a personal thing. Rather than playing as a character who makes binary choices of good or evil, have the choices be built around how your character reacts to the plot. It would make your characters more unique and less "player x did plot y while player f did plot g".

 

[Faelix]

This here concept, thinking a dumb game can substitute life. Makes you angry and post embarrasing threads.

 

[endtherapture]

You know people...there are still plenty of Archdemon's for Morrigan to pick from. They might still be underground, but they're there.

The old gods are, yes. But they aren't actually turned into Archdemons until the darkspawn find and taint them. When an Archdemon is slain by anyone other than a Grey Warden, the soul seeks out the nearest darkspawn and and is reborn from that body. This is possible because darkspawn are soulless creatures. Because a Grey Warden is not, the Grey Warden is killed and the Archdemon destroyed.

This is speculation on my part, but without that taint, the soul isn't going to seek out a darkspawn to be reborn from and isn't going to seek out Morrigan's baby if slain. The darkspawn are the ones that can hear and actively seek out the Old Gods. When they do, it's immediately afflicted with the taint, waking up twisted and corrupted. It's because of this that I find it highly unlikely that Morrigan will find and kill another Old God with a warden in tow, before the darkspawn get their hands on it. Thus, another Blight would begin before Morrigan has the opportunity to perform the Dark Ritual.

Because of that, if the canon is to be believed, Morrigan's god-baby is a complete impossibility. It cannot exist in any feasible way, unless retconned into the story.

I thought you could chose the canon going into DA2 if you didn't have a savegame? Since most people did human male warrior warden I thought that that was the default one.

Either way...I don't care, as I've said, Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect, it's not based on choices and stuff.

 

[Cagamelo]

Why would you want a game to be like ME aka "Tell me more about..." simulator? This would only work if the whole trilogy story was written on a single go but since it never will just ignore how inconsistent the games are. Also choices stopped being cool the moment people start calling you a psychopath for killing whoever you want, god help you if you actually are sane and don't treat some video game character like you would a real person.

 

[Bocaj2000]

I gave up on Bioware since Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2. Those were the points that I realized that they have transcended into AAA bullshit and will never deliver the classic RPG feeling that I grew fond of.

As for the OT, I don't really care. This is not a betrayal. Granted, I think that having Morgan as a major NPC completely shifted the focus of the DA series. It's no longer about darkspawn or Grey Wardens. The DA series is now about Morgan and her mother... both of which NPCs. I could give less shits about NPCs. As the player, I'm the main character, and as a writer, your job is to make the main character the most interesting one. A sure sign of shitty writing is when side characters are more interesting than the main character. I could expand and complain on how Bioware became the most disappointing developer within the past few years, but I won't waste my breath.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I thought you could chose the canon going into DA2 if you didn't have a savegame? Since most people did human male warrior warden I thought that that was the default one.

Either way...I don't care, as I've said, Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect, it's not based on choices and stuff.

The Hero of Ferelden History(default pre-built history for DA2) uses a male human noble that thrones Alistair and accepted the Dark Ritual. What I was talking about is the "official canon" that BioWare is using for Inquisition. Pre-built histories for a character that isn't imported. Which includes a Dalish Elf Warden that thrones Alistair and died killing the Archdemon. I'm assuming that's what the default pre-built history will be.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Didn't we just recently have someone from Bioware say how our choices will matter in Dragon Age: Inquisition?

Don't count on it. Read this very informative text about Morrigan: http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2013/08/12/dragon-age-inquisition-s-morrigan-past-and-present.aspx

And this is the best part

Male players are given the option of conceiving a child with Morrigan themselves, but even if they refuse, the other Grey Wardens of the world may not have the same resolve.

And

?The most important thing for me when I wrote [Origins] was that at the end even if Morrigan loved the player, she had this thing that she believed in, that was so important that she would do it regardless of the player..."

The last big choice you get to make in Dragon Age: Origins doesn't even matter. It's the Collector base all over again. Fuck your choices, we'll just do what we want. But please, buy our game. It's all about you and the choices. Choices matter. Unless when they don't. But they do. And don't. At the same time. IT'S A MIRACLE!

You are aware that David Gaider, the lead writer of DA 1-3 made this very very clear.
http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/371/index/17133997#17134097

"I'm not sure where the "but even if they refuse, the other Grey Wardens of the world may not have the same resolve..." comes from. Speculation on the part of the article writer, perhaps? Regardless, if the player refused the Dark Ritual then it was refused. There is no Old God Baby."

There is no fucking room to wiggle here. PERIOD! Will you accept this or will you, like many in this thread, ignore this and continue with your false preconceptions?

This is the same guy who said "If you killed Leliana and tainted the ashes, fuck you because she's still alive whether you like it or not."

 

[Chris Tian]

Either way...I don't care, as I've said, Dragon Age isn't Mass Effect, it's not based on choices and stuff.

Ähm... why then, does Bioware advertise it as such? Whenever they talk about Dragon Age they tell us how our previous choices will matter sooooo much.

I get your basic point, I too would have no problem if I dont get to make choices that have vastly different consequences in a game. But if you tell me I will get those choices and their consequences and make it a selling point of your game, then I will get angry.

Its like this: I love steak, but if I ordered chocolate cake and Bioware brings me steak while telling me its chocolate cake, I will get upset with them.

OT: I never thought that any choices from any previous DA games would change more than a few lines of dialouge.
Although Mass Effect gets named here as the counter example where your choices did matter, even there they never changed more than some dialouge and a few numbers in ME3 or that one character would be replaced by a placeholder, which again changes nothing more than a bit of dialouge. Bioware just did a better job in ME of creating the illusion that you choices mattered.

I get it that they dont want to go "The Witcher"-route and significantly change major parts of the game based on the choices the player made and its not a bad thing. Just dont run around advertising your game as one where your choices matter and dont give us so many choices to make that feel like they should have significantly different consequences.

 

[Chris Tian]

This is the same guy who said "If you killed Leliana and tainted the ashes, fuck you because she's still alive whether you like it or not."

He probably said that because the honest alternative would have been: "I'm sorry on the friday afternoon at which whe wrote Dragon Age 2 we were so stressed that we totaly forgot that Leliana could be dead in some playthroughs."