BioWare Defends Mass Effect 3 Launch-Day DLC

[SajuukKhar]

The difference is that
1. Shale was originally meant to be in the game, and recruitable in Redcliff. Bioware released Shale for free for new copies because she was intended to be in the game from the beginning, the Prothean squadmate was not, different situation entirely.

2. Zaheed, well more precisely all the free DLC on the Cerberus network, was part of EA's "project 10 dollar". Mass Effect 3's multiplayer takes Zaheed's, and the other free DLC's, place in this next game. You already got your free content from getting the game new in the ability to play multiplayer, which gives you more potential play hours then the free ME2 DLC ever did, and now you are asking for EVEN MORE free things then you got in the last game.



Yes because
Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal
Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark
Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide
Tribunal
Bloondmoon

Were such great additional to the base games plot........... ohh wait they had NOTHING to do with the base games plot at all. MOST expansion packs for RPGs back in the day were built to be standalone isolated stories that had almost no relation to the base game.

On the other hand the entire DLC questline in Fallout New Vegas's DLC shed light on one of the most important characters in the game, and all of Bioware's DLC integrates itself into the base game providing more context on it.

If standalone Expansions that don't carry on the base games plot/characters/setting etc. etc. add MORE to the story then DLC that intagrates itself the base game, we must be living in Bizzaro world.

 

[salinv]

Why are people still raging about this? I am more upset about Bioware's announcement about the Arrival- like DLC that would let you meet a friendly Reaper that would join your cause. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ&ob=av3e] That breaks the lore so badly... Bioware's really going too far.

I just wish that Dragon Age 3 will be decent.

I was about to get on and say something to the effect of "spoiler that shit, sir." Then, damn it, I took the bait. Well done.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I would argue that both Arrival and Lair add more to the base game then most old expansions because
1. Shadow Broker picks up the hanging Liara thread in the base game
2. Arrival continues the overall objective of ME2 in, delaying/hunting the Reaper cause.

Compare that to like the NWN expansions, or bloodmoon, which were just here's some stuff. Has nothing to do with anything hinted at in the base games.

 

[Syphith]

Most of what he said is opinion so it can't exactly be "wrong." As I said before, I'm not really a fan of his, as I've only seen a few videos, but I definitely agree with him on his point about what pre-order DLC should be. If you don't, that's fine, that's what makes it an opinion.

It can be wrong because the facts that he presents his opinion on are wrong. The basis of his argument is false. He assumes that content is being cut from the game because the DLC is being released on the same day as launch. He also assumes that the character will be important to the overall plot of the game.

I know he seemse agreeable now, but he's been nothing but belligerent on his facebook, twitter and Reddit accounts. Openly insulting anyone who is ok with this, or their reasons for being ok with this.

I've said before that I'm actually a big fan of TB, I appreciate his love of PC gaming, his humor, and even his SC2 commentating. He's wrong here, though.

How do you know that he's wrong? I'm not saying that he isn't and he certainly isn't presenting any real evidence that what he thinks is right, but where's your evidence that he's wrong? If it's based on what any one person has said, then it's not really evidence, it's hearsay. This is my point, until we all play the game and find out for ourselves, no one really knows.

Also, as far as the character not being important to the overall plot, I'm not saying it is, but again, how do you know it wont be? It's also a opinion issue as well, no matter what the point of the Prothean ends up being, it's "level of importance" will be determined individually be each and everyone of us.

However he's being otherwise, like I said, I'm not really a fan, so I don't follow him that well, but if he really is being belligerent I'm sorry to hear it. He seemed decently levelheaded.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I know of at least one person from Bioware who has stated that the Porhtean is not needed to get a full game.

word from Bioware = word of god in the case of anything ME related.

 

[Syphith]

The difference is that
1. Shale was originally meant to be in the game, and recruitable in Redcliff. Bioware released Shale for free for new copies because she was intended to be in the game from the beginning, the Prothean squadmate was not, different situation entirely.

2. Zaheed, well more precisely all the free DLC on the Cerberus network, was part of EA's "project 10 dollar". Mass Effect 3's multiplayer takes Zaheed's, and the other free DLC's, place in this next game. You already got your free content from getting the game new in the ability to play multiplayer, which gives you more potential play hours then the free ME2 DLC ever did, and now you are asking for EVEN MORE free things then you got in the last game.



Yes because
Baldur's Gate: Tales of the Sword Coast
Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal
Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark
Neverwinter Nights: Shadows of Undrentide
Tribunal
Bloondmoon

Were such great additional to the base games plot........... ohh wait they had NOTHING to do with the base games plot at all. MOST expansion packs for RPGs back in the day were built to be standalone isolated stories that had almost no relation to the base game.

On the other hand the entire DLC questline in Fallout New Vegas's DLC shed light on one of the most important characters in the game, and all of Bioware's DLC integrates itself into the base game providing more context on it.

If standalone Expansions that don't carry on the base games plot/characters/setting etc. etc. add MORE to the story then DLC that intagrates itself the base game, we must be living in Bizzaro world.

1. How do you know that the Prothean was not? Again, not saying that it wasn't, but how do you know this is true?

2. I'm sorry, but no, I am definitely paying for the multiplayer. Are you really trying to claim that we're getting the multiplay for free? It's part of the game, like any other multiplayer component, when I bought Battlefield 3, I didn't think I was getting the multiplayer for free. No matter what you think about the quality of ME3's multiplayer, it's still part of the content and we are most certainly not getting it as a "gift."

While I do see your point about Expansion Packs, no matter what you feel the value "story" of any one was, the amount of content was still there, so that's really all that needs to be compared.

As far as New Vegas' DLC story goes, I assume you're talking about Ulysses? Which first of all, most of the DLC only mentions him offhandedly and barely at all and the only one that has you interacting with him at all, Lonesome Road, was pathetically short and linear. Never mind the fact that I bet if you ask nearly any player of New Vegas that didn't touch the DLC who Ulysses was, they wouldn't have a clue. Because he wasn't important to the main game's over-all story at all and was barely even mentioned.

 

[BaronIveagh]

He even tried to refute it, but only addressed it's cursory elements, not how the content gets made.

Yes, because the fact it bares no actual resemblance to how EAs studios work should clearly be dismissed utterly. Granted, they do have three or so stages of development, but that seems to be where resemblance leaves off. (at least if statements from inside EA are to be believed)

Personally, I think he's right for the wrong reasons and have cancelled my CE preorder. This is as good a time as any to start standing up to game companies. I mean, seriously, to acquire 100% of the currently announced DLC is over $260.

Ladies and gents, TB is most likely talking out his ass, but I see this as an excellent opportunity. For a long time now we've been taken for granted by game companies. They assume that you, the consumer, are little better then a crack whore, who will happily blow hobos if they give you whatever game it is that is your personal poison.

They shove horribly one sided EULAs down our throats, they force DRM upon us, because we, the consumers, cannot be trusted. They lie to us and cheat us.

Now, I know many of you are saying 'Well, why should I give a shit? I got what I want, the rest of you can burn!'

Because it doesn't end there. If we keep giving, they keep pushing. Will you give a damn when you have to give a blood sample to use your games? When you have to buy the end of the game as DLC so you can finish it? When the game companies can legally put a camera in every room of your home?

Where do you draw the line?

 

[SajuukKhar]

1. Bioware said so?

2. You are getting the ability to PLAY the multiplayer for free when you buy new, not the actual multiplayer itself. People who buy the game used have to buy a online pass, similarly to how people who bought ME2 used had to PAY for the Cerberus network, while the people who bought it new got it for free.

They shifted the "project 10 dollar" from the Cerberus network, and thus the Zaheed and other free ME2 DLC, over to the multiplyaer.


@BaronIveagh

nice slippery slope fallacy there, to bad like every other use of said fallacy it is a broken argument.

Also in the 20 years of software having EULAs they haven't gotten worse, in some cases they have actually gotten better, and DRM has gotten significantly less common in recent years with only ubisoft really hanging onto the system.

ALSO how do you know it doesn't bare resemblance to how EA works? prove it.

 

[Syphith]

1. Bioware said so?

2. You are getting the ability to PLAY the multiplayer for free when you buy new, not the actual multiplayer itself.

1. And you immediately believe that this is true? Do you really think that if the Prothean was intended to be a squad mate originally that they'd admit to it up front? Obviously not. I'm not saying they're lying, so don't take it that way, but to blindly believe what someone who's in this kind of situation says is pretty gullible as far as I'm concerned. It's still hearsay and without true proof from either side, it will probably always remain this way. We will probably never know 100% what happened in this situation. You believe you know because someone you think you can trust told you so, but no matter what you think, that's not evidence. You can believe what you want, and since you're apparently such a fan of Bioware, I'm not surprised you automatically believe what you do, but I'll wait for some definitive proof to take sides on this issue, which means I probably never will.

2. Again, no, that's the Online Pass you're talking about. Free additional characters separate and unnecessary from the singleplayer do not equal the basic ability to play a multiplayer component included in the price of the game I paid for, not by a long shot. You really think my 60 dollars is paying for the multiplayer content, but not the code that lets me play it? Ridiculous.

 

[BaronIveagh]

nice slippery slope fallacy there, to bad like every other use of said fallacy it is a broken argument.

Actually when used in this context it's not a fallacy, but rather a classic debating argument. For it to qualify as the slippery slope fallacy there would have to be no reason that the events would lead to each other. In this case there is: greed and profit.

In this particular case, the boiling frog anecdote applies.


Edit:
In response to the rest of your argument:

You obviously have not been reading them then. For example: How many of you have access to Icelandic legal council to know if the EULA is even legal? (CCP Games) Safari 3.1 browser for Windows ship with a EULA that prohibits any computer other than an Apple-labeled computer from running it. Adobe briefly claimed the right to receive monetary remuneration off your created content. With out telling you about it. Origin... well, that one made news already and we all know what happened in Germany over it.

Prove it? Fine. EA management uses a flex system, assigning devs and programmers as needed. All those sections where people would be laid off or let go due to down time? Not true.

 

[rapidoud]

1. Bioware said so?

2. You are getting the ability to PLAY the multiplayer for free when you buy new, not the actual multiplayer itself. People who buy the game used have to buy a online pass, similarly to how people who bought ME2 used had to PAY for the Cerberus network, while the people who bought it new got it for free.

They shifted the "project 10 dollar" from the Cerberus network, and thus the Zaheed and other free ME2 DLC, over to the multiplyaer.


@BaronIveagh

nice slippery slope fallacy there, to bad like every other use of said fallacy it is a broken argument.

Also in the 20 years of software having EULAs they haven't gotten worse, in some cases they have actually gotten better, and DRM has gotten significantly less common in recent years with only ubisoft really hanging onto the system.

ALSO how do you know it doesn't bare resemblance to how EA works? prove it.

Steam is DRM
Origin is DRM

It's a very blurry line from there where copy-protection and DRM meet.

 

[SajuukKhar]

nice slippery slope fallacy there, to bad like every other use of said fallacy it is a broken argument.

Actually when used in this context it's not a fallacy, but rather a classic debating argument. For it to qualify as the slippery slope fallacy there would have to be no reason that the events would lead to each other. In this case there is: greed and profit.

In this particular case, the boiling frog anecdote applies.

It is a fallacy because greed and profit only work if they have people to take money from.

As silly as the "blood sample" and "cameras" stuff you mentioned is your argument that EA and other companies are just gonna keep on going with ever more restrictive measures is destroyed by the fact the companies know they are already approaching their limit.

Right now its a juggling game where they know were the barrier is but they are trying to get as close to it as possible without stepping over.

The FACT that EA has on several occasions outright removed the DRM on their games, or lessened the install limit restrictions, and have recently practically stopped using DRM does show they know where they can and can't go.

Your never ending rampage scenario is outright absurd and disprove by the actions taken by game companies in the past several years.

Steam is DRM
Origin is DRM

It's a very blurry line from there where copy-protection and DRM meet.

they aren't that's the thing.

 

[El Luck]

I have to say reading this thread has been fun. Always fun to see a group of people gang up someone who thoroughly deserves it getting their ass handed to them.

Anyway, I figured I'd add my 2 pence in to this already long and terribly over done topic.

So starting from the top!

In Mass Effect 3 there will be an NPC who is a prothean, having played ME1 I know enough that its quite an interesting turn of events.

The DLC that was announced before the game was released offers him as a playable character. The DLC also comes as standard with the special edition.

Now as far as I know this dude is in the game no matter what as an NPC, but you can pay to have him in the game as a playable squad mate with the DLC, and with the DLC a bunch of quests and shit to round him out as a squad mate.

Now if any of this is wrong, please correct me by all means, but please provide the proof necessary.
The spoiler below only applies to those thinking that you will have to pay to have this guy in the game fullstop.

Spoiler: If you were planning on telling me to go and look for this proof myself, please read

Don't tell me to go and look for this proof myself, the burden of proof is on you. If you tell me that the proof is somewhere on this thread, I'll call ballshit on that because I've read through this shit heap of a thread and seen no real proof to the contrary just a bunch of he/she says bullshit.

Just wanted to make my stance clear on that bit.

Anywho, my take on it is simple: I've never thought that day one DLC has ever really been worth buying. Not against DLC though, I buy it if its worth it..such as with Fallout and Borderlands. I didn't really think that Dragon Age: Origins DLC was worth it, but then again I got the version will all the DLC when I brought the game for the first time in 2010 When it was going cheap. Can't really comment on DA2..other than I regret even purchasing the game in the first place, but thats a topic for another time!

Back to day one DLC: Never thought it was worth buying but it made sense to me If you get it as part of a special edition it seems to be more worth it because they flesh it out with a bunch of other stuff too.

Though from reading through this thread it would seem that the special edition doesn't really have much going for it other than the extra price and the DLC to boot. Which does mean it seems to be cheaper to buy the standard edition and just get the DLC for a tenner. If i'm wrong on that, please correct me by all means.

Anyway...this rambling mess was my take on it, disregard if you feel like doing so.

 

[BaronIveagh]

The FACT that EA has on several occasions outright removed the DRM on their games, or lessened the install limit restrictions, and have recently practically stopped using DRM does show they know where they can and can't go.

they aren't that's the thing.

Actually Origin is. It has a built in series of libraries that function as DRM, or do the devs told me over on Origin's site.

 

[BaronIveagh]

Double Post

 

[SajuukKhar]

@BaronIveagh
Functioning as DRM =/= being DRM. I can make something functions as a car would but that doesn't make it a car.

@El Luck
The special edition also has
-The N7 arsenal pack
-Robot dog in-game companion
-Squad-mate alternate appearance DLC
-A N7 hoodie
-the Prothean DLC
-A 70 page artbook
-A limited edition copy of Mass Effect: Invasion with unique cover art
-A premium N7 fabric patch.
-Exclusive 4x6 lithographic print featuring a one-of-a-kind piece of artwork of the SR-2 Alliance Normandy.
-Free digital soundtrack.
-An Xbox LIVE Normandy prop for your Avatar. (Xbox 360 Only)
-A collection of forum and social badges, avatars, and perks.
-A premium metal case featuring commemorative artwork of both male and female versions of Commander Shepard.

 

[BaronIveagh]

@BaronIveagh
Functioning as DRM =/= being DRM. I can make something functions as a car would but that doesn't make it a car.

Actually, under the law, there is no difference. Either in the case of the car nor in the case of DRM. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably not a chicken.

 

[Murmillos]

In this case (of the ME3 DLC) backlash comes for a couple of reasons - which makes it different then what we've seen from other DLC in the past.

1) The perceived content that was cut, or "held back" for DLC. It just not some random squad member of an already known race; its something much bigger, much more important then that. His over all role may be nothing, but it's what he is and what he stands for (lore wise) that is too big not to be included in the main game. Or if you look at it another way, unlocking him to be a squad member is going to cost you $10.
"Shepard, for $10 I will join your squad and help you defeat the Reapers!"
He's already in the game, he just should already be a squad member. Zaeed wasn't on Omega taunting to drop $10 so you could bring him on board.
The bonus mission that comes with the DLC I'm on the fence about.

2) The fact that this day-one DLC is not free DLC for a buyer of any new game, but costs money to people who didn't get (or can't get) a collectors edition at a price of $10. Is a extra character, a mission, extra weapon and alternate armor skins for all your squad members worth dropping another $10? Look at you are getting out of the game for $60, and then look what you are going to get for $10. That better be one hell of a fucking huge mission. The price point for this DLC, with the information we have right now, seems too arbitrarily high; and having learned our lessons from the previous shenanigans from EA(/Bioware) in general, this just seems like another even more brazen attempt to get gamers to shell out more money for less content.

Yes the DLC isn't out yet, thus we haven't had the time to break it down piece by piece yet and this content may be well worth $10, but maybe it just isn't.
I just feel that if EA/Bioware wanted to sell this for a price, they should have tested the waters at $2/$3 instead of $10. Free for all new copies would have been even better... but that's just my "entitlement" of not wanting to be ripped off enjoying my hobby talking.


---------------------------------
Another thing.. that stupid graph that's floating about:

I'm not saying that graph is 100% wrong, but it only implies that every developed Day-One DLC is logically thought and planned out from the very start.
In the very chaotic world of programming, never once has an intended feature cut from a game to meet a required deadline, only to be repackaged and sold as a day one DLC.

DLC can be anything from some the required programming and scripts, using all the artwork and sound bites already in the core game, or have entirely its own artwork and sound, along with the required programming and scripts.

Some DLC is created after the core game is completed with objects yet not created by the core development team and some DLC feels like its just the scraps of junk that got cut during the opening development/planning phase (ME2 weapon packs).

And not all DLC is created from pure scrap from a side team, they use a lot of passed on items that did not meet the original cut.
Some DLC is... but most isn't. Cost saving - as you understand. The less stuff they have to come up on their own, the smaller the team and the quicker they can get it done.

"Hey Frank, do you still have all those 3d renders of all the weapons you submitted for review?" -- "Yea, I do.. why do you ask" -- "Send them over to Steve, he's going to use a couple of cut ones for new DLC weapons."

"Hey Bob, How complete are those maps that weren't selected for final polishing to be used." -- "I'd day between 3/4 done. Just some texture sewing/fixing, checking for gaps or spots where somebody could get stuck in.." -- "Great, Alice is heading up the DLC crew, send them over to her team so they can polish them up for the next DLC."

---------------------
I hate that I'm allowing this practice to continue (or being complacent to it) as I'm a collectors edition buyer; as all I thought I was getting was a few extra weapons, extra armor skins and a lot fan related physical material. Not cut content that "normal" editions have to pay for if they want it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

@BaronIveagh
Functioning as DRM =/= being DRM. I can make something functions as a car would but that doesn't make it a car.

Actually, under the law, there is no difference. Either in the case of the car nor in the case of DRM. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably not a chicken.

I'm, sure both Valve and EA could come up with some legal reason as to why their respective services are not REALLY DRM, they just do similar functions to DRM.