Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[CosmicCommander]

Even going back to Bioware KotOR is turn based TURN BASED. Yes KotOR is turn based and not even well turn based it is some sort of half breed.

YOU HAVE SAID BLASPHEMOUS REMARKS ABOUT KOTOR IN MY PRESENCE!

YOU SHALL BE DESTROYED!!

Y'know the Original Fallout Games were turn-based, don't you? It's not the turn-based combat that distinguishes JRPGs from WRPGs, it's the how the games are handled in the story. WRPGs have realistic characters, and make you influence the story, and have you participate in the game. JRPGs make you an observer of the story, and you only dictate to the characters in combat.

What's is so amazing and game changing about changing how your character looks? It adds very little to the overall experience except make it more personal well slightly and I mean very little.

It's not about how the character looks, it's about directly influencing your character, making them how you want them to be and controlling their lives.

It's called Role-Playing, as in Role-Playing Game. As in RPG.

Do JRPGs have that?

No.

 

[DragonChi]

At first I thought I had a pretty good idea of what an RPG is, and I still have my personal opinion and preferences towards one. But after seeing so many contradicting posts, I have to admit im kinda lost. Where exactly does one draw a line and say "this is an RPG" and "this is not". There are dozens of potential features to be used and incorporated into a game that someone intended on being an RPG, but somewhere along the line someone says "because this game does have A, B and C" you didn't make what you intended, its now an adventure game with elements of rpg, but not an RPG. what's the difference? There is no law or rule that says you need to have "said features" then and only then, is it an RPG. It's strictly based on preference and opinion.

I don't think any one person can really make the judgment call. While yes, there is undoubtedly an extreme on both ends , one being RPG, the other being Adventure. and various hybrids and combinations of both therein. like comparing D&D (which has every RPG feature imaginable, or close to) to a game like..any game you know of that only has one RPG feature) somewhere in the middle is this grey area and a line that splits the 2 game genres. What does that line stipulate? how is it defined or justified? and who justifies it?

I honestly never would have thought for a second that FF XIII was ever not an RPG. it's just a game that chose certain features that are common in RPG's and left out a few, to make a game that they wanted to make.Why can't it be an RPG. Just because it doesn't have most features that most RPG's have, shouldn't mean that it isn't one. The game does have Character progression does it not? that is one if the major defining factors of an RPG as far as im concerned. it may not be as personal as you would would want, but that's a personal preference.

So, ultimately, in my opinion. FF is an RPG in its own fashion. but that's just my opinion.

 

[Troublesome Lagomorph]

Alright then.
What does that make Mass Effect 2?
A Third Person Shooter with a custom character and moral choices.

Basically what I'm saying here is that, as much as I love Bioware, I disagree. Sure, you don't create the character and there are no moral choices. Look at Jade Empire, though, where you could only chose out of about 4 characters and could only customize combat abilities.

 

[The Sorrow]

Let us use the Socratic Method.

The definition of RPG must have one thing with three stipulations: a characteristic that IS present in RPGs, NOT present in games that are not RPGs, and the presence/absence of said characteristic determines its nature.

In this case, RPG (in Bioware's sense) means crafting a story as much your own as is possible within the confines of the game. As this is not present in JRPGs, it would be fallacious to declare FFXIII an RPG.

 

[veloper]

That's an interesting take on it. Is Dawn of War 2 an RPG? By the reasoning of most of the FF13 defenders on here, yes.

DOW2 is too awesome to be RPG. Cleanse Purge Kill!!

Any developer can call their game a RPG aslong as it has some kind of leveling or XP progression in it, because "RPG" can mean too many things.
Strategy game devs just usually don't and that's their call, because it's their game.

Jagged Alliance would've been an even better example, but we still call that squad based strategy, even though it has turn-based combat and progression and choices. It could have been marketed as a RPG.

JRPGs atleast are somewhat clearly defined, with a fixed protagonist and companions doing a lineair story with sidequest level grinding.

TPL
RPS
RTWP
JRPG
roguelike

are labels that still mean something. Use these instead.

 

[Eggsnham]

Well, he's right.

The only RPG element is leveling up and advancing stats.

 

[Lynxan]

I think it's more the other way around, There are more games that you are Role Playing then not. Since when is playing a roll mean you have choices? As far as I understand it, Role Playing is that you are being someone else, it don't matter if it is the one you make up for WOW, Batman or Mario, you are playing that role.

So in the grand stream of things I think there are very few games that are not a Role Playing Game.

 

[theamazingbean]

Exalted is an RPG, bioware games are slightly more complex choose-your-own adventure books.

 

[Sovvolf]

snip

Just to go on your edit JRPGs are not traditional RPGs as in DnD. They are video game RPGs which is what people are forgetting. Fair enough if you agree with them I can't change that but JRPGs are not about your story they are about the story.

See that's why they aren't RPG's, RPG's are supposed to be about your* story and your* adventures. Taking that away just makes it like any other game role, your given the characters and adventures instead of being able to create your own.

*Well the character you have created's adventures.

Although it may not seem like you have much of an impact character or story wise you aren't supposed to have a massive impact.

Again this is what keeps it from being an RPG, you don't have an impact, without that impact your playing out a storyline, a well written and immersive storyline, but a storyline it still is.

You do have an impact in skill development which keeps them RPGs that is all I will add to that as I am off to bed.

Not really, most of them give you pre-defined skills that upgrade automatically with-out any of your own input. This is avoided in some of the FF games with clever ways of skilling out your character but you still don't have much control over the process.

I'm also dripping into La,la land, little tired I am. I will be happy to discuss this with you at a later time when we are both well rested. I respect all opinions as long as those opinions aren't "FUCK YOU ARSE HOLE, YOUR JUST A DELUDED FANBOY" and such. Also keep in mind that I'm not against JRPG's and I honestly enjoy a lot of them, I just think the term JRPG is a misnomer.

Alright then.
What does that make Mass Effect 2?
A Third Person Shooter with a custom character and moral choices.

Basically what I'm saying here is that, as much as I love Bioware, I disagree. Sure, you don't create the character and there are no moral choices. Look at Jade Empire, though, where you could only chose out of about 4 characters and could only customize combat abilities.

People keep judging Bioware on the console RPG's rather then the PC RPG's... Try looking at a game called Neverwinter Nights or Boulders gate. Those games are as close as we've got to a true RPG so far. Heck in Neverwinter nights both 1 and 2 you could even create your own adventures and share them with you friends.

 

[AWAR]

A big thumbs up on that...

 

[Fearzone]

DA:O felt pretty linear to me. Invisible walls everywhere. Also I much prefer paradigm shifts over hitting the space bar every couple of seconds.

We are back to definitions though. An RPG has to be defined before such a claim can be made, or at least people have to agree on a common definition, or that there is a common definition. I define it as a game where progress is made primarily through empowerment of player abilities and gear.

 

[chronobreak]

Seriously can people just fuck off about this.

Not to single you out Glade, but what makes people so upset about this? I really would like to know. It's just a thing a guy said.

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

.

Have you played Dragon Age, by any chance? Or are you just generalizing based on Mass Effect like all the other popular kids seem to be doing?

In my opinion, Dragon Age is one of the best modern examples of a "Role Playing Game" that is true to its name. You get to choose an origin story, and build a character from there. There is no morality bar or points, just choices. Usually you can pick to be selfish, helpful, humorous, apathetic, etc from dialogue choices. You can be a rogue, mage or warrior; elf, human or dwarf. The character doesn't talk in the dialogue sections, but you're still choosing what to say, so it feels more like you're actually playing that character.

I do see your point, in the future RPGs need to be less about "this option leads to this outcome, but so does this one, unless you did that thing and said those words four hours ago" and be literally open to make your own character. That's why I enjoyed Fable 2, you could make a fat decadent noble, or a brutal assassin, or a bartender supporting his family, etc.

Alright, I'll hold my hands up and admit I haven't played DA:O. I haven't felt like playing fantasy games in a while. That said I've also heard other people tell me that the different characters all felt the same to them, but I haven't played it so I'm only going by word of mouth here.

So far though, as I said, the only game which has really come close to my view of a true role playing game (and I acknowledge that it isn't possible, too many options etc) has been Fallout 3.

Of course, technically, either every game is a role-playing game, because you're taking on another role, or no game is a role playing game, because it's been crafted by other people, so it's their role, not yours.

 

[Dr. Dice Lord]

I never thought about the Final Fantasy games like that. Erickson makes a very good point there, and I have to agree with it, logically... You could still argue the fact that FFXI is an RPG, but that's the exception as far as I can tell.

 

[CollaWars]

Final Fantasy games are awful anyway.

 

[Isendell]

I kind of wish people could take more time to read Erickson's answer in its full context. Maybe the FF fanboy's wouldn't look so childish in their "OMG fuck you Bioware!!!!" replies that way.

First, this is not Bioware calling a press conference to try and stick it to Square Enix, he doesn't even criticise the game anywhere in the interview. The Strategy Informer interviewer simply puts the example of FF13's linear gameplay to Erikson when asking about problems SWTOR could face, since Bioware have been trying to emphasise the story aspects of their in-development MMO. If anything the interviewer is being pretty critical of FF13 and Erickson is just stepping in to note that the two games are pretty far apart in terms of genre. So he's just commenting about genre, the other guy is doing all the work when it comes to trashing that game.

Second, why all the moaning about Mass Effect? Mass Effect isn't compared to FF13 anywhere in the interview, in fact ME is barely mentioned at all, and even then they're just discussing voice-over content. Theres no point trying to rebound all this rage at ME's RPG elements considering that series is probably the furthest removed from Bioware's RPG pedigree. And people are acting as if Mass Effect1 and 2 are the only games Bioware have ever made :S Don't you guys play PC games? I mean sure, come up with some criticism of Baldurs Gate and its RPG elements, but whats the point in crying about ME? It's a TPS set in space aimed towards outrageous cinematic moments and punching annoying NPC's in the face. But it still has better RPG elements than FF13, so nevermind.

 

[oktalist]

I also agree with that notion, but the issue is that there is no clear definition on what defines something as an RPG. Borderlands and Bioshock have "RPG elements" but they are merely levelling up systems and upgrades, if they count as RPG elements then the line is a little fuzzy.

Agreed. I get annoyed when inventory systems and levelling up mechanics are considered RPG elements.

You mean to say they're not?

 

[Steppin Razor]

Seriously can people just fuck off about this.

Not to single you out Glade, but what makes people so upset about this? I really would like to know. It's just a thing a guy said.

Because it's not just one person or even just this thread. It's every single week that a new thread pops up about JRPGs not being role playing games and it gets tiresome dealing with all the flaming that goes on.

On topic: Eh, Bioware can say whatever they want. Doesn't mean I don't disagree with them entirely and I certainly won't point out the hypocrisy of calling moral choices as "role-playing". Seriously, if we're going to get this petty than we should just remove the RPG genre entirely and divide it up into Moral Choice Adventuring and Stat-Based Adventuring.

You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character

Bioware - guys, where's my ability to ROLEPLAY an armourer or a peasant? Why can't I ROLEPLAY an emotionless bastard that ignores everyone around him? Why do I have to land my ship and get out of it instead of blasting shit from the sky? ROLEPLAYING of the pen & paper variety lets me do that, and you're using that as your guide as to what makes a ROLEPLAYING game, so why won't you let me do it?

You give me a set of choices to choose from, you let me create a character that's the exact same as other characters, give or take a couple skills and various levels of ugliness, and I certainly don't live your bloody character. You give me Captain Generic's Adventures in Space/Middle Earth, not ROLEPLAYING by the definition that you seem to be using to say FFXIII isn't a RPG.

At the end of the day they're two completely different styles of gaming that incorporate different elements from the old RPGs. Western focuses on freedom of choice within set limits and Japanese focuses more on stat-whoring and ungodly amounts of items, skills and magic. They're both RPGs, they just choose to focus on different aspects of the roleplaying experience.