Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

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Halo Fanboy

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Baconmonster723 said:
You ARE Commander Shepard.
Unless you are seriously delusional I hope you know this isn't true.
Baconmonster723 said:
In FF XIII, however, you don't play the role of Lightning, Sazh, Snow, Vanille, Hope, or Fang (I don't think I forgot any :/ ).
There are other characters who you also don't play the role of FYI. Mainly NPCs.
Baconmonster723 said:
You are simply a puppeteer pulling strings.
I don't see how this is a relevent analogy. The puppeteer isn't confined to a predefined gameworld like video games are. Both games can use "press analog stick to move forward," one isn't more puppeteering than the other.
Baconmonster723 said:
Their characters are set in stone as stock characters with zero control over any actions that the character performs throughout the story. Nothing the player does has any effect on the story beyond Game Over or Ultimately Victory.
So the text boxes that you pick options for talking to a guy are "story."
And the text boxes that you pick options from when fighting a guy are not "story."
How strange.

So you can can become a fictional character in a video game as long you are using an input device (some times even the same input device used when not roleplaying) to input algorithims into a predefined world as long as what you are putting in count as "story" instead of "not story?"
 

KiruTheMant

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Could be BioWare dosen't like competition,but he ACTUALLY made a point. You can't even control how your characters grow right?
 

Anaphyis

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The term RPG is so obscenely deluded when it comes to video games over the last 2 decades, does anyone really cares except for the invisible pigeonholeing council? This is a controversial statement for the sake of controversy, to make delusional fanboys fight each other. And while I enjoy pointless mayhem as much as the next sociopath, it's getting a little stale lately.
 

Morrcane

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Fuck that FF13 was amazing. A RPG is a role playing game, as long as you are playing a role in the game surly that is a RPG. you don't need to create a character to make it a RPG.
 

Halo Fanboy

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The Sorrow said:
In this case, RPG (in Bioware's sense) means crafting a story as much your own as is possible within the confines of the game. As this is not present in JRPGs, it would be fallacious to declare FFXIII an RPG.
Well for one thing you are saying that the definition of a noun is a verb. Secondly you would have to define what makes a JRPG.

Also I'm not sure about your definition. According to you when I RPG the important thing is that I own the story, well for one thing which part of the game is story and which is not and how do I know how much I own it. The other part is "as much as possible within the confines of the game," Aren't the possiblities space for any game limited, meaning that I can RPG in any game as long as I take full advantage of the possibilities of making the story my own. Which means that RPG is in control of the player and the developer is irrelevent.
 

pretentiousname01

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I enjoy how everyone is hung up on the fact he is a game dev.

Is he not allowed to have an opinion?

The guy doing the interview put him on the spot with this.

~~~~~~
Strategy Informer: The main staple of The Old Republic has always been its story, but I'd argue that without good game play to support it, there is a lack of incentive to want to find out that story. I use Final Fantasy 13 as an example here: excellent story, but sometimes the grind or the linear game play made me struggle in wanting to see it through. What are your thoughts on that?

Daniel Erickson: Well, before I address the main point I just want to take a slightly more controversial route: You can put a 'J' in front of it, but it's not an RPG. You don't make any choices, you don't create a character, you don't live your character... I don't know what those are - adventure games maybe? But they're not RPG's.

But you're absolutely right, without the systems, your nothing. One of the things we've always been aware of is that a lot of people play Baldur's Gate to death, and those people who play it 3,4 5 times aren't story guys, they're D&D guys.

We know there are going to be people here for Star Wars combat, for PvP all that... and actually, what we were originally going to do was just have standard MMO combat. Two guys swinging at each other, but not interacting. It didn't feel like Star Wars though, and it wasn't fun. So we went back and prototyped this run and gun, lightsabers touching, choreographed combat sequences in real time. The Director always holds everything we do to this 'standard' - does it look and feel like Star Wars? If no, fail.

~~~~~

With all the contention between ff13 being good or not. Compared to the almost universal acclaim me2 has received. I'd not be surprised if someone put a similar question to some of the square guys about me2.
 

Veldt Falsetto

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Mass Effect or Dragon Age are just as much RPG as Final Fantasy X and XII except in the western titles there are more dialogue options ALL of which do nothing or very close to nothing

Mass Effect, you can change your gender, your first name and make yourself look pretty much exactly the same as the default character, the story is a line with a fork in the road when they give you a good or bad option, who to shag or who to kill, none of these choices really do anything but we'll see won't we, the gameplay is a third person shooter with changeable equipment and skill points.

Final Fantasy X, you can change the characters name, the story is a line with a fork in the road when someone asks you (as the main character is known as) something and you are given a choice, in addition certain scenes, including big ones, alternate the character you (Tidus) talks to depending on who you talk to first in the group or battle with or heal most (a choice you make), of course (like Mass Effect) none of these choices really do anything, the gameplay is turn based strategy with changeable and completely customisable equipment and skill points.

Dragon Age: Origins, you can change your gender, the characters name and make yourself look pretty much exactly like the default character, the story is a line in which you choose your characters starting location and then choose the order of places you visit, who you shag and who dies, which doesn't really do anything, the gameplay is an ATB - meter based battle system in which you set up your characters actions beforehand using what Square Enix calls Gambits, there is a huge inventory of equipment and very little customisation (but more than Mass Effect) and skill points.

Final Fantasy XII, you get a default character, the story is a line in which you get a huge world you can choose to wander freely, the gameplay is an ATB - meter based battle system in which you set up your characters actions beforehand using what Square Enix calls Gambits, there is a huge inventory of equipment and very little customisation (but more than Mass Effect) and a huge in depth skill points system in which instead of stats lets you level up weapon, equipment and magic levels.

So with the basics down, here is the real thing.

Mass Effect 2, you can change your gender, your first name and make yourself look pretty much exactly like the default character (why they make or let you do that if you load Mass Effect save data is beyond me), the story is a line with a fork in the road when they make you pick good or bad, who you want to shag or whose side you take in an argument, which (presuming your Shepard isn't the most indecisive thing ever, you'd have full good or evil meters by the end, neither really matters because the same thing happens) doesn't really do anything but we'll see won't we, the gameplay is a third person shooter with a few weapons and armour and few skill points.

Final Fantasy XIII, you get a default character, the story is a line in which later on (about the same place in every Final Fantasy) you get a huge world you can choose to wander freely, the gameplay is an ATB - based battle system in which you can choose to auto battle and focus on your class strategy or pick actions yourself in order to make the game even harder, there are a few weapons in which you can choose to upgrade in an easy to use, difficult to master weapon and accessory upgrade system and skill points.


If making choices that matter and designing your own individual looking character makes a game an RPG, then Tony Hawk is more RPG because at least it does one of the two "definitive RPG elements" well...
 

jboking

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Role playing Video Game - Wikipedia
Role-playing video games (RPGs) form a loosely defined genre of computer and video games with origins in pen-and-paper role-playing games[1] such as Dungeons & Dragons, borrowing much of their terminology, settings and game mechanics. The player in RPGs controls one or several adventuring party members fulfilling one or many quests. The major similarities with pen-and-paper games involve developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replayability and immersion. Electronic medium removes the necessity for a gamemaster and increases combat resolution speed. RPGs have evolved from simple text-based console-window games into visually rich 3D experiences.
Both Final Fantasy 13 and Bioware's games(most of them anyway) fit into this category. Sounds like a decent enough definition for me. I'll accept the Bioware guy's definition the instant he gives me one reason to value his opinion.



I didn't want to get dragged into this...but,


HyenaThePirate said:
As for Final Fantasy XIII, its as far from "RPG" as i think you can get in video gaming. There is no stats, the customization options are on par with Saints Row 2: Switching weapons, thats about it.
...all of the characters have stats that can be modified by switching accessories or weapons or gaining portions of your crystarium. Oh and all of the weapons have stats and can be upgraded if you so choose so it can gain better abilities or become completely new weapons. So...what are you talking about?
Sure I can put some points into the world's most linear skill progression tree, but it's not like I can really modify my characters to fit specific skill-sets. It's essentially a loooooong progression unlock system. Want Fire? you'll get it eventually, after about 4 wasted crystal nodes that modify pointless stats like hp increases that I might not want or need.
Maybe for that character fire is considered an upper-tier move. Do we give all RPG characters access to high tier moves from the very beginning of the game? No, you earn them as you go. Also, crystarium certainly wasn't the best system, but there are instances where you decide what role your character is going to fill. Medic? Okay, be a medic. Blk Mage? Okay, be that. it's designed to make your characters fulfill roles, which plays into you creating different skill-sets and getting familiar with the battle system. Does it allow you to set up the same kind of skill sets you had in previous games? No, but then again, isn't being a bit divergent a good thing? Sure, it wasn't too successful, but at least they tried something new instead of popping out FFVII again.

But worst of all, in FF XIII ]you aren't playing a role, you control an increasingly random collection of characters through very specific story moments... you can't even choose your own party until far too late in the game, so until then, you are forced to utilize people with skills you wouldn't probably want.. I hated Hope. Given an option I never EVER wouldhave used him. I'd have had a constant party consisting of Snow, Frost, and Sasz. maybe vanille or lightning here and there.
to the italicized: I think it's been throughly pointed out that 'playing a role' is something you do in every video game. Calling that a defining characteristic of the RPG is allowing all games to be RPG's. Even so, you should look at the battle system itself. You are filling roles of medic, sentinel, synergist, saboteur, ravager, or commando. You also get to choose what role you fill. At the beginning it's only three per character, but it gets expanded to all six per character later on.

to the bold:Okay, given, I didn't finish the game...but is that some character that I just missed? Is it some secret character in the last chapter or do you just not know the names of the characters you wanted in your party?



You can't even modify their weapons.. you get stuck with whatever archetype the game wants you to have.
You can upgrade literally every weapon and change their stats. You can pick what archetype each of your character fills on your team.
 

Irony's Acolyte

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Considering how they put it, I got to admit that Bioware does have a point. I've never played a FF game (or any JRPG for that matter) so I don't know everything there is to know about the genre (read: Please don't kill me for being ignorant). But from what I do know it isn't really that much of a roleplaying game. You're given a character, get some team members to help you, and you go off down a very linear path to the end of the story. Although it does have RPG elements it doesn't really allow for any roleplaying. That being said I would still classify the FF series as JRPGs. Although WRPGs generally focus now-a-days on allowing you to take your character where ever you want to, JRPGs take you down an already laid down storyline and allow you to customize characters to your liking. They may not be as open ended as say Fallout 3 but they still have some roleplaying elements in them.

So I guess in the end, so long as we distinguise JRPGs from WRPGs then these kind of debates won't be necessary. They are two distinct genres that are closely related, but have fundamental differences; like FPS and TPS. Or RTS and TBS.
 

imaloony

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In a ROLE PLAYING Game, you put yourself into the role of the main character in a game. This can be demonstrated with games like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout, Fable, The Elder Scrolls, Dark Alliance, exc, but FF13 is a linear, turn based adventure game. If the characters have free will, you're not really playing the role, now are you?
 

Grey_Focks

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Anticitizen_Two said:
Since when do you have to create characters for RPG's? Since when do you have to create characters in RPG's? The Japanese made RPG's before westerners ever did, so this is essentially bullshit.
erm...no they didn't. The first RPG's (all of which were inspired by the western made DnD, btw) were games like Ultima, which were also made in the west.
 

Halo Fanboy

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Looking at the Bioware rep's statments instead The Sorrow's illconcieved interpretations of them think the only point they have is about creating characters.

I would like to point out that plenty of original RPGs use non-original characters. Web based ones in particular.
 

shemoanscazrex3

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This is interesting. I haven't played the ME games but from the RPGs I've played of theirs on the og xbox when the hell am "I" gonna talk