Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG
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No.Quiet Stranger said:
The first Japanese RPGs like Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy were heavily inspired by the western RPGs of that age like Ultima and Wizardry, which were in turn heavily inspired by western tabletop RPGs like Dungeons & Dragons.
I tend to classify Role-Playing Games as 'any game in which I have stats which increase through experience, granting me more power/speed/etc'
Thus Halo is not an RPG, since all of my stats remain exactly the same throughout, but Final Fantasy (I'm not going to be playing XIII, but VI, VII, VIII, IX and XII) are RPGs.
I know my definition won't exactly be universal, but really, Bioware's games don't let me fully roleplay either. If I wanted to fully roleplay in any game I'd be a lovable rogue, ostensibly out for himself but getting into scrapes to help people he's met, and getting paid wouldn't lose me experience points. (Now I'm looking squarely at you Bioware. Who decided that nice guys never get paid huh?)
In Bioware games you play as a True Neutral, a Chaotic Evil, or a Lawful Good, there are no other options, so where exactly is my role-playing choice for Chaotic Good? And why couldn't I join the Blue Sun mercenaries if I wanted to?
Harp on about character creation all you like Bioware, but Fallout 3 has let me in three days get closer to the sort of character I want than your games did in several weeks of playthroughs.
Thus Halo is not an RPG, since all of my stats remain exactly the same throughout, but Final Fantasy (I'm not going to be playing XIII, but VI, VII, VIII, IX and XII) are RPGs.
I know my definition won't exactly be universal, but really, Bioware's games don't let me fully roleplay either. If I wanted to fully roleplay in any game I'd be a lovable rogue, ostensibly out for himself but getting into scrapes to help people he's met, and getting paid wouldn't lose me experience points. (Now I'm looking squarely at you Bioware. Who decided that nice guys never get paid huh?)
In Bioware games you play as a True Neutral, a Chaotic Evil, or a Lawful Good, there are no other options, so where exactly is my role-playing choice for Chaotic Good? And why couldn't I join the Blue Sun mercenaries if I wanted to?
Harp on about character creation all you like Bioware, but Fallout 3 has let me in three days get closer to the sort of character I want than your games did in several weeks of playthroughs.
nope it was americans, 1970s' don't know a specific title (possibly dungeon master they were mostly DnD derivatives) the biggest early one was from the 80s' though: Rogue.Quiet Stranger said:
this idea makes sense. however even in mass effect 2, problems like this still arise. no matter what happens you still have to fight the collecters and in the first one you have to fight the geth. a true roleplaying game where you make the choices would have allowed you to team up with saren and start ripping the shit out of the alliance. a true rpg game is a game where the developers create a setting, and allow you to do as you please and fill the "role" part of the genre. Say you create your character and youre told of villages being taken over by an evil empire. now a game by bioware would force you to investigate in one of three ways. being a dick, being a nice guy, or somewhere in the middle. a true rpg would say, whatta you wanna do? and then i could choose to go rambo on their asses, try to rally my village to create a militia to fight them off, join the enemy forces for wealth and women in exchange for information or something, or i could run away and hide in a cave. that is an rpg.
Already stated my opinion on this in a thread I made about predefined RPG characters, but this is pretty much exactly my opinion. It's not roleplaying if the game doesn't allow you any way to insert your personality into the character whose role you're supposedly taking.
While I am a rabid Bioware fanboy, I both agree and disagree with this statement.
I agree in so far as I don't consider JRPGs to be simply RPG games from Japan. For the most part, they lack almost all the features that define RPGs as I know them. Protagonists are predefined in every way, there is little to no choice given to you, both in how the story plays out and how you build and develop your characters. In that regard, I do not consider JRPGs to be RPGs.
HOWEVER! I also disagree with mr. Erickson's statement. JRPGs and W(estern)RPGs have always been clumped into the same category, but their evolutions were widely different. They are two different genres, not two varieties of the same genre. And just as the label "RPG" is arbitrary, so it the label "JRPG". It is a genre in and of its own.
I like both WRPGs and JRPGs, they both have their strenghts. But they are simply different, so can we accept that and move on?
I agree in so far as I don't consider JRPGs to be simply RPG games from Japan. For the most part, they lack almost all the features that define RPGs as I know them. Protagonists are predefined in every way, there is little to no choice given to you, both in how the story plays out and how you build and develop your characters. In that regard, I do not consider JRPGs to be RPGs.
HOWEVER! I also disagree with mr. Erickson's statement. JRPGs and W(estern)RPGs have always been clumped into the same category, but their evolutions were widely different. They are two different genres, not two varieties of the same genre. And just as the label "RPG" is arbitrary, so it the label "JRPG". It is a genre in and of its own.
I like both WRPGs and JRPGs, they both have their strenghts. But they are simply different, so can we accept that and move on?
Wow, I though it was just Bioware fans who bashed on JRPGs. Turns out Bioware employees do too? *sigh*
He is wrong, WRPGs do not fit the full definition of RPG so if JRPGs don't then neither do they.
He is wrong, WRPGs do not fit the full definition of RPG so if JRPGs don't then neither do they.
But it isn't. Dragon Warrior 1&2 allowed me to change the name of the hero I controlled. Therefore, with that simple step, I assumed control of that character and played the role of that character. That simple step made it an RPG. In an RPG you don't just play the role of a character, you ARE the character. In FF XIII you aren't the characters, you hardly control them outside of moving and fighting. FF XIII is not an RPG because of this. Just because a game has a level up system and an inventory system doesn't make it an RPG.Belladonnah said:
It's a controversial statement, right? I knew that. Especially with the amount of Bioware fans on these forums. But if anyone from Bioware can trash another game to promote their own (game style) than i can say something too and perhaps make people think about what the hell both of us are talking about. Since when is Bioware's definition of choice and creating a character a hallmark of RPG's anyway? And what's this nonsense about living your characters?Woodsey said:
I wanted Shepard to have a gay romance with that Jacob guy. But no. Bioware decided that it doesn't fit into their vision of Shepard. So there's your choice. In the end its all about Bioware and not player choice. So it's really unfair to trash another game on that basis.
It isn't really bashing, as he said nothing about the quality of the game, it's really just semantics. But FFXIII is more faithful to "classic" RPG titles that defined the genre than, say, Mass Effect, and he only says that because he is looking at RPGs by how western RPGs evolved.LeonLethality said:
Um... no. Unless I missed something, Halo is no way, shape, or form an RPG. It is a purebred FPS with no pretensions otherwise. FF13 certainly has elements of an RPG, if nothing else, though it's more tactical, horrifyingly linear adventure than anything else.Shadow XXVII said:
I wouldn't count Mass Effect as an RPG, it is as streamlined and as linear as FF13, there for if they argue Mass Effect is an RPG they are hypocrites.