Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Laxman9292]

Isn't it the same case with Diablo? All the characters you can play with are already created and there are no choices to be made by the players. But it's still considered an RPG. Same with Zelda.

I never considered, or heard people consider, any of the Zelda series as RPGs. They are mostly classified as adventure games.

 

[dogcat]

0_o. Linearity certainly does not go against what an RPG is all about. Linearity has absolutely no bearing on the term "RPG". ROLE is the word of the day here.

Shouldn't the emphasis be on the "playing"-part of role-playing? Role-playing implies that you are allowed to influence your character. Otherwise, it's linear. Playable character != Role-playing character.

 

[Laxman9292]

Bioware is wrong, naturally.

I cannot argue with that infallible logic. Maybe if you actually responded to the topic with an actual reason people would take you seriously.
honestly, to me FF13 is barely a game, you do not control your party, the paradigm system is BS, and you rarely pick your own attacks because auto attack already has the most effective ones for the most part. it might sound crazy but i think the series has gone downhill since the creation of ATB system, i liked the old school real turn-based combat better, without the bar filling up nonsense.

 

[Shock and Awe]

He has got a pretty damn good point, its not much of a Role if you just follow the character. Its not like a custom character cannot be emotionally gratifying, just look at Commander Shepard.

 

[Grampy_bone]

I don't know, I think it's more RPG if you play a different role, rather than just being a mute avatar for the player. Stepping into the shoes of Solid Snake or Lightning is as much roleplaying, if not more so, than playing Bioware Silent Hero #27.

Bioware just gives you slightly more options for your character's background and motivation, but it's really no different. No matter how good or evil you are, in Kotor you're still Revan, in Jade Empire you're still the Spirit Monk, in Mass Effect you're still Shepard, etc. I think Bioware is splitting hairs.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Bioware is wrong, naturally.

I cannot argue with that infallible logic. Maybe if you actually responded to the topic with an actual reason people would take you seriously.

This thread is ten pages long and on a subject that's been brought up at least a dozen times in just the year I've been here. If I expected to be taken seriously, I would have provided an argument.

 

[Laxman9292]

I wouldn't count Mass Effect as an RPG, it is as streamlined and as linear as FF13, there for if they argue Mass Effect is an RPG they are hypocrites.

Were we playing the same game??? Especially if you mean Mass Effect 1, which was significantly less linear than the second one. You have a space ship and a bunch of different planets to visit in an order of your own choosing, you do missions of your own choosing, use party members of your own choosing, use weapons and upgrade them of your own choosing, upgrade your character and gain new abilities of your own choosing, interact with NPC is a style of your own choosing (renegade/paragon morality crap). that is about as definitive of a RPG as it can get. And how many of these points apply to FF13? maybe like two (weapons and leveling with upgrades)

 

[Laxman9292]

Bioware is wrong, naturally.

I cannot argue with that infallible logic. Maybe if you actually responded to the topic with an actual reason people would take you seriously.

This thread is ten pages long and on a subject that's been brought up at least a dozen times in just the year I've been here. If I expected to be taken seriously, I would have provided an argument.

then dont comment. just let it die rather than spam the thread with this shit.

 

[Sjakie]

Posts like this would do well to include a poll

for the record: i agree, most, if not all JRPG are more like turn based adventure games. And yes, i think TBAG would be a good acronym for that as well ;-)

 

[Mr. Purple]

<color=purple> Nah, I don't dig it. I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my opinion might as well be that sushi is a liquid and I live on Uranus.
Either way you look at it, games like that have been considered RPG's for a ong time. He can't just come out of nowhere and decide that he is the one who decides what an RPG is. In my opinion, Final Fantasy will always be more of an RPG than the rest of these half-assed games out there. >.>

 

[Laxman9292]

All the stats and level-ups and equipment in the world doesn't change a thing about the fact that Final Fantasy typically has virtually no player-input when it comes to decision-making outside of combat. Characters play out their predetermined roles rather than following the player's roleplaying decisions.

Correction me if I mistaken however can you change Shepard's objective? No? Then you are playing out a predetermined role. Yes Shepard can be an obnoxious jerk or Jesus along the way, whereas say, Tidus, is following a linear line of development from initiation to conclusion however the objective of Mass Effect is still, and will remain: "Defeat Saren", just as FFX's objective remains: "Defeat Sin." It is simply different routes toward the same result.

yes but ME gives you the ability to choose which path you want to take to get to the over arcing goal, whereas FF13 is completely linear, start to finish. you cant change your interactions with the world to tailor it to what kind of role you would play. no videogame is ever going to be truly RPG like you described, they will always have a final plot point that the game builds up to, solely based on the fact that it is impossible to program something like that. RPG for videogames thus is going to be a different definition than tabletop RPGs like DND

 

[happyvampyre]

0_o. Linearity certainly does not go against what an RPG is all about. Linearity has absolutely no bearing on the term "RPG". ROLE is the word of the day here.

Shouldn't the emphasis be on the "playing"-part of role-playing? Role-playing implies that you are allowed to influence your character. Otherwise, it's linear. Playable character != Role-playing character.

This basically sums up my argument. If you say that fitting a role is what makes an RPG, then you can make an argument that pretty much ANY game is an RPG; in Halo 3 you ARE Master Chief, in Super Mario Brothers you ARE Mario, just as you FIT INTO THE ROLE of the protaganist in any game. The fact that YOU, not a pre-set script, decides what happens throughout the story is what makes it an RPG.

Personally, I think no game can truly be an RPG unless it's table-top because of the simple restrictions upon actions; I can't make my character go play with fluffy bunny rabbits in the middle of combat while playing Dragon Age like I can do if I'm playing D&D. However, games such as Dragon Age and Mass Effect achieves a state closer to this than FF XIII. Simply having customized skill sets do not make an "RPG" an RPG if the experiance of the game stays the same every playthrough. For a game to be an RPG for me, I have to be able to approach the same situation and come away with four or more different outcomes.

Mass Effect (especially the first), for example, I feel is close to being an RPG. I play Paragade, leaning heavily towards Renegade, whereas my friend plays pure Paragon. Our experiances were fairly different; characters treated us differently, and different oppurtunities were presented. Our Shepards became distinct people, despite sharing a voice actress, because it was OUR choices that drove the story. Of course, Mass Effect is missing several key factors of an RPG (the choices and the ramifications aren't distinctive enough in common situations for my taste, for one, and the character interactions leave much to be desired).

In all, I don't really feel that JRPGs are... I hate to use the word "standard," but they aren't quite standard RPGs. The games still have merit, but the name is misleading; they are more adventure games than anything else.

 

[PyroZombie]

Personally I don't see why Bioware is shoveling around this nonsense. Mass Effect 2 is hardly more RPG than Action game with a diverse choice system, which always leads you back on same exact road. They are so big on choices, but none of their choices actually do anything. Your still on the same track, no gigantic differences, just your voice heard over the store, lying bold face to people for a discount. You can change the painting on the ride but it still rides the same rails.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

...all of the characters have stats that can be modified by switching accessories or weapons or gaining portions of your crystarium. Oh and all of the weapons have stats and can be upgraded if you so choose so it can gain better abilities or become completely new weapons. So...what are you talking about?

What you describe isn't modifying stats to me, it's just swapping gear. I guess perhaps you are right that by switching from one weapon to the progressively stronger (but similar in design) weapon you can effect some behind the scenes modifier that provides an illusion of 'customization' but to me it's essentially the same thing as swapping out an early stage shotgun for a more powerful shotgun in a shooter. It does more damage, simply by virtue of NOT being 'starter gear'. And for all the "pluses" that might be detailed on an accessory in a game, I hardly if ever notice it to be of any major benefit... a +2 fire resistance ring in FFXIII might as well be a +2 ring of shiny-ness for all the good that is immediately noticeable. A fire based boss monster using a fire based attack will still turn you into an androgynous pile of ash just as quickly without that ring as with it. Of course, this is merely my own experience, but I suppose that I simply prefer that when I switch weapons, stats, armor, etc, that it have an immediately noticeable effect instead of some unseen potential effect behind the scenes where it is just crunched into some random number algorithm that has about as much effect on my enjoyment of the game as knowing the name of the light and shadows programmer at the developer.

Don't sell me 'trading giant ninja star A for gianter ninja star B' as true stat modification and roleplaying. At the end of the day I'm still playing with exactly the same set of rigid toys that were given to me with little deviation.

Maybe for that character fire is considered an upper-tier move. Do we give all RPG characters access to high tier moves from the very beginning of the game? No, you earn them as you go. Also, crystarium certainly wasn't the best system, but there are instances where you decide what role your character is going to fill. Medic? Okay, be a medic. Blk Mage? Okay, be that. it's designed to make your characters fulfill roles, which plays into you creating different skill-sets and getting familiar with the battle system. Does it allow you to set up the same kind of skill sets you had in previous games?
Again, same problem. Want to be a medic? Ok be that. Want to be a Blk mage? Ok be that too, but only when/if we allow you the option. Preferably after you spend all your available points going through the tedium of filling out another role's options. By the way, every one of those skills allows zero modification.. simply hold down button X to fill the tank with points until walla! you gain another skill. Oh, sure, you can 'skip a few' here and there that you don't really want if you WANT to, but those are usually set off to the side at random and are almost ALWAYS something you actually really DO want. Its "carrot on a stick" gameplay and its almost laughable when compared to other RPG customization options. Check out Valkyria Chronicles if you want to see what true customization and skill assignment in an RPG is suppose to look like. Or Persona.

No, but then again, isn't being a bit divergent a good thing? Sure, it wasn't too successful, but at least they tried something new instead of popping out FFVII again.

Sure, it CAN be a good thing. But it can also suck. This is one of those times that they diverged themselves off a cliff and ruined an element of Final Fantasy that has until now been mostly an expected feature. To be honest, it would have probably been better to pop out Final Fantasy VII again with a slightly tweaked menu/combat system and updated visuals, refine the story a bit and boom, a game that kicks the hell out of FFXIII any day of the week.

I think it's been throughly pointed out that 'playing a role' is something you do in every video game. Calling that a defining characteristic of the RPG is allowing all games to be RPG's. Even so, you should look at the battle system itself. You are filling roles of medic, sentinel, synergist, saboteur, ravager, or commando. You also get to choose what role you fill. At the beginning it's only three per character, but it gets expanded to all six per character later on.

And I have never agreed with that line of thought. I do NOT believe that you "play a role" in every video game. There is a vast difference between stepping into a role and "taking control of an established character". It's the difference between playing a character in a movie and DIRECTING a character in a movie. I am not Master Chief in Halo, I simply control him through his adventures. In Fallout, I am whatever you want to call that character. I choose his abilities, I decide his behavior, I do all of his thinking. In God of War, I simply move Kratos from point A to point B in the story as the story and levels were written and provided. In Oblivion, the adventure is where ever I chose to make it. My choice. My decisions. That is what a "role" is. This highly philosophical nonsense about every incarnation in every game, film, or book being YOU somehow placed into that role for we are all players and blah blah blah has always fallen flat with me. If its not me, if its not what I would choose to do given an option, then it ISN'T ME. And if it ISN'T me, the illusion is shattered and it is not a ROLE any longer... unless you count "Active participant Spectating" as a role.

to the bold:Okay, given, I didn't finish the game...but is that some character that I just missed? Is it some secret character in the last chapter or do you just not know the names of the characters you wanted in your party?

I'm sorry, I was thinking of Snow and Lightning and an anime and got myself all discombobulated. I meant Fang, who reminds me of Frost from an anime series.

You can upgrade literally every weapon and change their stats. You can pick what archetype each of your character fills on your team.

No, you can choose between Airwing type A and Airwing type B or Sword-gun 1 and Sword-gun 2.0. But if you want Lightning to use dual pistols like Sazh, sorry, can't do that. Want Snow to stop hitting things like a dumbass with his fists and use a big ass Cid-type spear? Sorry, can't do that either.

Oh but you can upgrade their weapons, you are right about that. Whenever you get tired of Airwing 2.0 you can upgrade it to Windwing 1.0 or Breezewing 2.5 (these names are not real names, I'm just making a point).
Essentially you can upgrade each weapon into 4 types, but since each character has essentially ONE super bad ass iteration of that weapon, all customization goes out the window. It's NOT like switching Materia... you literally just have to google "best weapon for lightning" and get exactly the info needed to upgrade her to the best weapon she has available in the game. You don't even win it, no epic Ultimate boss monster quest to get a chance a drop for it, no camping, no random encounter... just "follow these steps and you'll have it by end game", at which point the end game becomes as difficult as guiding Bert into Ernie's bedroom after a couple of shots of tequila.

I'm going to retaliate with NO.

Why?
Because you do grow stats and yes it's fixed at the start but later on you can level whatever path you want.

I can't think of any WRPG released this gen with any weapon upgrades at all and switching in and out gianter ninja star B is ALL they do.

AND NO, you can't just google best weapon, there is no best weapon, it's all choice, yes all weapons eventually upgrade into the same name but each base weapon has different stats and abilities, do you want Lightning to be well rounded, a strong attacker or mage or would you rather her stats were lower in place of a weapon with an ability like she attacks faster or has better healing and no you don't win a weapon but to upgrade all 6 into ultimate weapons theres gonna be about 50 hours of grinding in ch 11. Lightning has 6 base weapons, starting well rounded, attack strength, magic strength, huge attack boost but no stagger, quicker atb charge and improved raise. Bearing in mind each of these weapons base stats will be representative of their final stats at ultimate weapon, the ones with skills end up weaker stats wise but the skill gets better, which is the best weapon for Lightning?
That depends on how you level and use her after ch 10 and every character has the same situation, often with different abilities on the weapons and that each weapon has 3 forms starting at level 1 to 26 then 13 to 39 then 25 to 50 in order for the weapon to be maxed out. In addition to upgrade into the 3rd form you need adamantite, go to ch 11 and fight Adamantoise, you'll die, I've finished the game and still can't beat one yet.

No, I'm not crap before you say, the game was made that way, you're not giving it any credit for what it does well, which is a lot, I agree with people that not choosing your party leader sucks, not choosing your party when you have a choice of 4 or 5 sucks too, the party splitting up and you being forced to play in parties of 2 is great

 

[NeutralDrow]

Bioware is wrong, naturally.

I cannot argue with that infallible logic. Maybe if you actually responded to the topic with an actual reason people would take you seriously.

This thread is ten pages long and on a subject that's been brought up at least a dozen times in just the year I've been here. If I expected to be taken seriously, I would have provided an argument.

then dont comment. just let it die rather than spam the thread with this shit.

Eh. May as well. It's enough to know we disagree.

 

[twaddle]

let us examine the term "R.P.G"
R.P.G actually stands for Role Playing Game. Now by this logic, Final Fantasy 13 is a role playing game because you do assume the role of lightning and her crew. The term is not FRRPG (free roaming role playing game). by this logic, however all games are rpg since you assume the role of the main character in every game u play. Shooters can mean any game that allows you to shoot something. what i believe is these genre terms need to be redefined as a whole.

 

[miguelle]

Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG.
Well Bioware, Mass Effect 2 isnt an RPG either. More like TPS with rpg elements and dialog tree.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

I wouldn't count Mass Effect as an RPG, it is as streamlined and as linear as FF13, there for if they argue Mass Effect is an RPG they are hypocrites.

Were we playing the same game??? Especially if you mean Mass Effect 1, which was significantly less linear than the second one. You have a space ship and a bunch of different planets to visit in an order of your own choosing, you do missions of your own choosing, use party members of your own choosing, use weapons and upgrade them of your own choosing, upgrade your character and gain new abilities of your own choosing, interact with NPC is a style of your own choosing (renegade/paragon morality crap). that is about as definitive of a RPG as it can get. And how many of these points apply to FF13? maybe like two (weapons and leveling with upgrades)

But none of that changes anything really, it's an illusion of choice and besides when XIII opens there are loads of missions you can choose to do.

As it ends as much as I liked Mass Effect 1 and 2, if choice is what an RPG is then an RPG Mass Effect is NOT, you have no choice not predetermined and it doesn't change anything, I understand this is because video games need limits but either both are RPGs or neither are because they both represent two sides of PnP RPGs that are restricted due to the medium

 

[Tony2077]

let us examine the term "R.P.G"
R.P.G actually stands for Role Playing Game. Now by this logic, Final Fantasy 13 is a role playing game because you do assume the role of lightning and her crew. The term is not FRRPG (free roaming role playing game). by this logic, however all games are rpg since you assume the role of the main character in every game u play. Shooters can mean any game that allows you to shoot something. what i believe is these genre terms need to be redefined as a whole.

that's true but that takes more effort then most of them are willing to give

 

[Lynxan]

**let us examine the term "R.P.G"
R.P.G actually stands for Role Playing Game. Now by this logic, Final Fantasy 13 is a role playing game because you do assume the role of lightning and her crew. The term is not FRRPG (free roaming role playing game). by this logic, however all games are rpg since you assume the role of the main character in every game u play. Shooters can mean any game that allows you to shoot something. what i believe is these genre terms need to be redefined as a whole.**

Thank you, I've put that up in this thread twice and so far it hasn't been commented on, but I've said the same thing