Bioware: FF13 is not an RPG

[Arcticflame]

It's simple in my view. RPG is a term that was never really defined, under the most common definition that I have come across, JRPG's are not rpg's because they do not allow role playing ala D&D. That is, multiple plot paths, plot choices etc.

However under other definitions, RPG's just require a storyline and control over the characters in the story in the most simplistic way, I personally reject this definition, however it's a subjective definition so I can't definitely say I'm right in this case.

Basically it's a pointless argument, RPG's aren't defined in the same easy to apply way as an FPS or RTS are.

 

[sivlin]

0_o. Linearity certainly does not go against what an RPG is all about. Linearity has absolutely no bearing on the term "RPG". ROLE is the word of the day here.

Shouldn't the emphasis be on the "playing"-part of role-playing? Role-playing implies that you are allowed to influence your character. Otherwise, it's linear. Playable character != Role-playing character.

For sure for sure. I actually agree that non linear game play with as much player influence as possible makes for some of my favorite games. I'm more or less defining the absolute bare minimum to be called an "RPG", and in my eyes, most video games can fit into the category of RPG (Taking out games such as pong and most puzzle games of course). It's where they go from there that makes the distinction between what most would call "true" rpg's and the other genres such as FPS, Platformers, and the like.

My entire post comes down to this: BIOWARE IS WRONG WTFBBQ. RANDOM GUY THAT POSTED IS WRONG WTFBBQ. I don't think their statements are valid.

 

[MadBlueWinnie]

That's actually a good point. Turned-based adventure gaming might be a better way to describe it.

Turn - Based Adventure Gaming? this could work guys.

I like it

 

[TazTheTerrible]

Ehhhn. Character creation, to me, is completely beside the point of an RPG. If anything, I think it detracts from the "role" aspect since it means your main character becomes far less iconic. You can argue something for making choices, but I don't think Bioware has much right to champion their own games in that regard either. Not that they make bad games mind you, it's not even that they do it any worse than pretty much every other developer out there, it's just that I've yet to see a game that handles choice in a way that is both open and in-depth and doesn't kill the story. Probably virtually impossible, I know. Not to mention this can also detract from the "role" aspect because your character needs to be blanker for your options to be open, and you can usually act like a complete schizophrenic, stalwart defender of right one moment, cackling psychopath the next.

Point I'm getting to is: in Bioware games I don't really feel like I'm playing a role either, more like there's three fairly parallel paths through the game and I'm picking the rail I happen to be on at that particular time.

So yeah, RPG games aren't exactly what they say on the tin, boohoo. To me, RPG means a focus on story and character, along with a number of devices typical to the genre, such as for example leveling systems. It seems a bit pointless to start clamouring for a name change at this point. You talk to a gamer about an RPG game, you both know more or less what you're talking about. That's the point of a name, even if the meaning shifts.

 

[Nokterne]

I couldn't stand FF13 enough to even finish it.

ME2 is currently in my top 3 games of all time.

 

[GestaltEsper]

...We're still talking about FF13?

 

[Lord Hawkeye]

One man's claim that something isn't what it is holds no more truth, no matter what his stature is, then a sieve holds water. This is just more WRPG vs JRPG drivel and nothing more.

 

[superbatranger]

I don't know. I respect Bioware and the games they make (I love Mass Effect), but that seems kind of egotistical. Games like Final Fantasy have been considered RPGs due to various class choices and sat rasing since the 1980s. What made them suddenly not RPGs?

Because of the changing of the definition of the term RPG. As recent as the early days of this console generation RPGs(JRPG included)covered games that involved you controlling the principal character of the story throughout the game as you gain the trust of people who share your cause(although through cutscenes) therefore forming a party. Then you take this party through a long journey of random encounters with strange monsters in bouts of turn based combat with wizards and shit as you level up and accordingly transfer skill points to the skills and attributes needed to level up the correct abilities and attacks, and of course the all too important act of leveling up. At the same time you're going from town to town, cave to cave, dungeon to dungeon item hunting, because we all know that big ass sword is so much better than that little wooden staff you got in your hand. We must not forget about those errands you do for people during said story, although it's been years since I've played an RPG, like Final Fantasy, so I might be wrong. Oh and there were "boss" battles thrown in. But now with games like Oblivion, the definition has changed somewhat. But I view both of them as RPGs. We could say the term now has two definitions. The one we grew up with, and the one that has been created by developers such as Bioware.

 

[Rack]

FXIII is not a Role Playing Game because you have no influence on the role whatsoever, so it cannot be said you are "playing" that role. However it is an RPG because historically the term RPG has come to mean different things. Reified-Probability-Gameplay is the bst I can come up with to describe JRPGs.

 

[Shadowsole]

As a Fan Of RPGs (W and J) I Sum It Up Like this...

Adding that 'J' Changes alot

As Far as I'm Conserend If FFXIII was made in USA Then It Would Still Be a JRPG.

In other words The J Or W Depends not on Where it Was Made But It's Content

 

[Treeinthewoods]

Wow, intense thread...

I like Bioware and Sqenix but I think people are getting a little nuts trying to define genre's that encompass so many different types of games. My only qualification for a game to be an RPG is that I can in some way control the characters development and doing so affects the gameplay noticeably. And honestly, even that definition is probably a little off the mark (it may be too broad).

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

Isn't it the same case with Diablo? All the characters you can play with are already created and there are no choices to be made by the players. But it's still considered an RPG. Same with Zelda.

I don't know... I always considered a game an RPG as long as you can level up at your own pace, have an inventory stuffed full of objects, and a reasonably open world to explore. And maybe armor you can switch around that changes the way you look.

It is considered an Action RPG, with the RPG elements being found entirely in the loot collection and skill wrangling. What sets an Action RPG apart from simply an RPG is the presence of tangible choice in who your character is and how they interact with the world. At the most basic level, this can be done simply by allowing one to create their own character and offering a variety of responses to key situations.

The catch of course is that the subdefinitions get quite murky. Mass Effect 2 discards many of the trappings of an RPG like exhaustive skill management (you only have a handful and you can change them any time you're on the ship) item collection (you only get a few items and in many cases one part is clearly the better option) and a focus on real time skill based combat. All it maintains of the RPG structure is the choices that direct the evolution of the story, player character and party members.

This leads neatly into a caustic debate regarding the true nature of RPG's. Some will assert that the inventory management, skill min/maxing and the rest are integral parts. Others will assert that they key component is choice in how the story plays out. What is fairly easy to come to terms with however is that FF13 seems to be lacking in many of the key areas.

Character Progression - This is entirely out of the hands of the player. You have no say regarding how any character evolves over the course of the game.

Tangible choice - this is almost entirely absent. In some games, one is presented with the illusion of choice even when they are traveling down a fancy corridor for the duration of the game. FF13 doesn't even bother giving the illusion of choice to the player. Indeed, for the first 20 hours or so, you are literally walking along on a straight line, encountering enemies every few seconds.

Item Collection - Again, this is notably absent. While it exists in the most technical sense, in the time I played (about 20 hours before I decided there were games better suited to my tastes that demanded my attention) all I could do was upgrade items I already had. This is more or less similar to the mechanism used in Mass Effect 2 that caused an uproar.

Skill selection - this is present in a very general sense but has very little meaning to the game as a whole. Different characters are excellent at certain jobs and you always have sufficient skill points to ensure you can meet the challenge of the moment. The combat based skill selection is interesting, but hardly deep as you simply switch between different configurations in order to ensure you overcome the foe of the moment as quickly as possible. Were it not for the simple fact that you face the same combinations of foes for hours on end, the combat system would actually be legitimately enjoyable, but instead grew stale.

It seems to me that while FF13 does maintain at least a portion of the trappings of an RPG, it would be difficult to make an argument that it qualifies. While one could argue that some of these trends do not apply to JRPG's (they tend to maintain tight control on the characters, plot and gameplay choices), at least the item collection and skill bits are common enough to be called important. By Western RPG standards, FF13 clearly doesn't qualify in any fashion beyond the most basic gameplay mechanics. By Japanese standards however, I believe a case could be made, but I am certainly not the one to do so. It is a rare JRPG that grabs my interest and the only one I truly enjoyed was Final Fantasy Tactics Advance.

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

*sigh* The essence of roleplaying is that your choices have impact upon the goal you are setting out to do. That is what roleplaying is about, you take a role and make decisions based on the role you have chosen. The lack of choice in a plot removes the key aspect from the roleplaying game ancestor, the tabletop rpg where you made a character and went in whatever fucking direction you wanted.

That ties in the point of a game with the concept of RP. You are playing a role and thus need to make decisions based on the character you run. In a game where you do not make any decisions, your role is very limited, to the point where the minutia lovers label it something else entirely. This is because either the focus is puzzles, adventure, exploring, etc. Not growing your character, keyword Your, in ways that you decide. If you are always Bob the funny haired moron, how many points you put in dick waving versus duck sodomy won't matter because the game never changes.

That is the problem and what Bioware is addressing. What you do with your character doesn't really affect the game in the FF series. Rpg elements are relegating to a basic choose your skill adventure set but you are unable to truly affect the heart of the character.

Thus we have the heart of RP, changing a story through your choices. Actual change in the outcome. Granted, the AI limitation of video games tends to leave you with but two or three choices at best but it is a far cry from the samey plots I see in every FF that turns me off from them.

So no, I don't care about what different weapons you equip on Bob the odd haired weirdo. I care about whether anything you do actually has impact besides what was going to happen anyway.

 

[BinkyStalls]

Bioware hasnt made a game ive ever been interested in

 

[Tony2077]

wow its still going it like that energizer bunny

 

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Bioware hasnt made a game ive ever been interested in

And? Does that somehow make their opinion as a developer who creates deep RPGs less relevant?

Look people, just because JRPGs aren't actually RPGs doesn't mean they can't be GOOD games. There are good games within every genre. Chrono Trigger and Valkyrie Profile are some of the BEST games EVER. But if you consider these games to be RPGs, then you would have to consider every game to be an RPG. Assuming a role as Master Chief does not make Halo an RPG. To actually be playing a role, you have to have some deeper connection to the main character, established through customization of looks, specializations, statistics...things that make you OWN that character.

And impact of choices, see my above post. XD

 

[Canus]

Some of you people are making such idiotic generalizations. To say that all it takes to be an RPG is to play the role of a character. I can play the role of Lightning. Or Hope, or whatever (haven't played FF13). Or, ya know, I could play the role of a plumber, saving a princess. Whoo hoo, I can play the role of the plumber! Thanks, Super Mario Bros! Or I could play the role of Zangief, bravely battling my way through hardened warriors, suffering minor setbacks all the while, but in the end being victorious and glorified by all of mother Russia! Character progression at its finest!

On the flip side, to demand total choice is also stupid. Yeah, in ME you can't really change your ultimate goal. Go ahead and play up your PnP RPGs. Decide that instead of rolling a ranger, you'd rather be a cobbler, and refuse to do anything but craft shoes. See if you get invited back. While yes, the flexibility given by having a human think of consequences to your actions on the spot is much greater than a video game developer trying to think them out in advance, your DM DID think out a goal in advance, and is going to steer you toward that goal however you choose to go about it.

I believe that the defining characteristic of an RPG is the ability to make a choice, and have NPCs respond to it in a way that affects things for more than one battle. In Halo, you can choose to attack from a different angle, but once that battle is over your choice is forgotten. You can choose how to upgrade weapons in RE4, but I don't think "dying faster" can really be called NPC response by a sane person. In ME you can be selfless martyr, or a mercenary dick, and be treated differently. You can fall in love with (almost) your pick of the NPCs, and have the NPC "love" you back. In FF8 you can let Squall sink gradually into a depraved vigilante mindset before being redeemed by a passionate romance with Selphie. No wait. No you can't. You can uh... decide whether you want him to summon a fire demon, or a thunder bird. Hot balls whoo. I'm not saying all JRPGs are undeserving of the "RPG" part, but the FF series is very lacking on roleplaying. I know in the end I have to fight Kefka, but can I at least have the pretense of doing it to replace him? Can I have Barrett refuse to stay in my party after I say I'm only fighting Sephiroth for revenge? Can I have SOME nominal choice?

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

snip

Yes I do know the original Fallouts were Turn based but I was picking on KotOR as that is a Bioware RPG. Yes you do more or less control your characters you can customise their abilities and change what you want granted you don't affect the story but you are not supposed to. What people forget is the Video Game RPGs =/= Table Top RPGs. This is where they originally stem from but then again Death Metal orignally stems from Jazz and Country.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

snip

Just to go on your edit JRPGs are not traditional RPGs as in DnD. They are video game RPGs which is what people are forgetting. Fair enough if you agree with them I can't change that but JRPGs are not about your story they are about the story.

See that's why they aren't RPG's, RPG's are supposed to be about your* story and your* adventures. Taking that away just makes it like any other game role, your given the characters and adventures instead of being able to create your own.

*Well the character you have created's adventures.

Although it may not seem like you have much of an impact character or story wise you aren't supposed to have a massive impact.

Again this is what keeps it from being an RPG, you don't have an impact, without that impact your playing out a storyline, a well written and immersive storyline, but a storyline it still is.

You do have an impact in skill development which keeps them RPGs that is all I will add to that as I am off to bed.

Not really, most of them give you pre-defined skills that upgrade automatically with-out any of your own input. This is avoided in some of the FF games with clever ways of skilling out your character but you still don't have much control over the process.

I'm also dripping into La,la land, little tired I am. I will be happy to discuss this with you at a later time when we are both well rested. I respect all opinions as long as those opinions aren't "FUCK YOU ARSE HOLE, YOUR JUST A DELUDED FANBOY" and such. Also keep in mind that I'm not against JRPG's and I honestly enjoy a lot of them, I just think the term JRPG is a misnomer.

Alright then.
What does that make Mass Effect 2?
A Third Person Shooter with a custom character and moral choices.

Basically what I'm saying here is that, as much as I love Bioware, I disagree. Sure, you don't create the character and there are no moral choices. Look at Jade Empire, though, where you could only chose out of about 4 characters and could only customize combat abilities.

People keep judging Bioware on the console RPG's rather then the PC RPG's... Try looking at a game called Neverwinter Nights or Boulders gate. Those games are as close as we've got to a true RPG so far. Heck in Neverwinter nights both 1 and 2 you could even create your own adventures and share them with you friends.

Yes I know that you have your opinion and thats fine and if define a RPG as something else is fine. What I think is that they are because Video Game RPGs do not = Table Top RPGs. They can't give you infinite choice. Granted that Death Metalstems from Jazz and Country. So yes things can part extremely far from their original roots and this keep the core concepts.