Hectix777 said:
Dude, they freaking wrote the book on storytelling in videogames. I'm fairly certain that there is a Chanty of Light somewhere in the world. It would be a huge honor to work at Bioware. The problem is that people are never appreciative of what you give them. The combat in Dragon Age 2 was pretty good, the only things I would change in combat is that there should be more AoE pushback spells and absolutely NO BUTTF******** SPIDERS!!! It also couldn't hurt to spice up some of the romance scenes. They had to rush it DA 2, that's why it's "shabby" ya troll. So they did ONE bad game and it's," oh Bioware, how hard you have fallen,"? What knida logic is that? That's like crucifying J.K. Rowling for writing one crummy HP novel. The "actionyfying" is due to the cesspool of FPS and other grit shooters that make gamers desire action that's hits quick and fast, you'll never see a hardcore FPS guy playing a turn-based RPG. Sure, combats a little out there, but its the one game where I can get up close to bad guys as a Mage and do damage. Just have some freaking faith man, you're behaving like God just abandoned you because of a few unlucky weeks.
It's not that DA2 was crap and all of a sudden I lost my faith. Nonononononno. I've seen the steady regression in every single game ever since BG2. Neverwinter Nights, wasn't as good, but was good. KotoR was alright, even better than NWN, but it now became more and more of a canned experience. The game writing was top notch, and that's what saved it for me. Jade Empire was fun, but nowhere near as epic as the earlier games. Mass Effect was like the logical next step and it's good. I reiterate, those games are all good. Then with Dragon Age, suddenly they say "you know what? We admit we haven't been releasing games that really speak to the fans of the traditional style of RPGs, so here you go, we're making this epic game to succeed Baldur's Gate. It's original, fantasy with orcs and dragons, it's gonna be awesome. And I liked it, but it still wasn't nowhere near what they had achieved earlier. DA2 is just a weird sudden step into the ME2 direction when they promised something different.
Everybody who likes Bioware for the games they make now, that's cool! I'm not hating on you. We have different tastes, and that's normal. I just feel let down because Bioware is one of the few surviving companies that really cared for RPGs back in the day, and they act like the still care, but all they want is to get new audiences instead of working to improve on the traditional RPGs.
@MisguidedTerran
You wanted concrete suggestions, right? Alright:
I'll start off with Ultima 7, a game I am playing right now for the first time ever.
U7 is pretty amazing if you consider it was released in 1992. It had a large game world. It's a seamless world, meaning you can travel anywhere without having to load new maps (except the dungeons ofc), which technologically is an amazing feat. It's like with the Elder Scrolls 3 and 4. So, the NPCs in that game have a daily schedule, they eat, work, sleep etc. So that means there is also a day and night cycle. Also, the game writing is just super good. Every single NPC I have talked to has had their own custom dialog, their own personality that really shines through. The quests are also very interesting, and overall story is as well. The themes in the game about virtues, how people can be manipulated by cults in the mold of scientology, and other stuff like that can get really thought-provoking. I am not through with the game yet, but I'm enjoying it. The problems I see for the modern gamer are an unusual perspective, which one will eventually become used to, lack of a quest journal (you have to take your own notes) and horribly inventory UI (you just gotta learn to deal with it). But the core qualities (lively and detailed world that is fun to explore, great writing) still hold up to this day.
About BG2: that game was HUGE. It's not just that the world itself is big in scale. There was so much to discover, quests would take you days sometimes even though they had nothing to do with the main quest. There was just so much attention to detail and the passion of the developers shined through. Then you'd play the game again, discovering other portions and different endings. The D&D ruleset for all it's incompatibilities had a very deep class system. And Bioware did that justice by creating enough content to make playing them worthwhile, there were just more possibilities to role-play, as limited as it is without an actual dungeon master. The world wasn't as dynamic as U7's, but it didn't feel static, because there was just simply SO MUCH quality content to see, so exploration and simple sidequesting was rewarding and felt like you're really adventuring.
But still, these games are nowhere near perfect. I think RPGs are inherently handicapped with the technology we have today. Technology not as in hardware, but as in AI systems for example, or procedural generation. Imagine an RPG where you have actual meaningful choices. You're not limited to role-play in the few instances that the designers give you a chance to make a decision. Imagine, for example, this scenario:
You break into an NPCs house in the middle of the night, robbing all the money he has. He needs to sell his house to pay his debts because he lost all his savings. Also, his wife leaves him and he becomes an alcoholic because his world fell apart. You chose to do the "normal" RPG thing: to loot an NPC's house, but your actions now bear real consequences.
Or yet another example:
A mining village has been in conflict with a troll tribe that lives in the mountains. They systematically hunt down the trolls. You decide to side with the trolls, and one day sabotage the mining operations by spreading a poison that only harms humans which you found somewhere else. The trolls now have a deep admiration for you and the human villagers not only can't mine anymore, their whole economy inevitably collapses and it becomes a ghost town. All this NOT being static, but just a consequence of your actions, calculated by superior AI systems and simulation of economy and ecology of the world and the societies of the creatures that live there.
The only game I can think of that kinda does this is Dwarf Fortress. This is something that goes WAAAY beyond what Baldur's Gate 2 offers, or Elder Scrolls, and even more WAAAAAAAAY beyond what Bioware does now. It's what RPGs could become if anybody actually pushed into the direction I mean, not simply making prettier graphics and more cinematic dialog scenes.
So you see, I'm by no means saying that BG2 was perfect. It's just that Bioware has dropped the ball around the time after they made that game.
canadamus_prime said:
dolgion said:
Remember Bioware? Those guys made some of the modern classics of the RPG genre. Baldur's Gate, KotoR, Neverwinter Nights etc. What happened to them?
In another thread I read that people bitched about DA:O's old school combat approach, so logically they had to make the combat more action oriented. And people still *****, even more so. It's not that gamers are whiny primadonnas that can't be pleased.
Oh wait, yes they are. Exhibit A: You.
You know what? You're right, I'm whining. I'm demanding. I want games that really move things forward. In the very least, I expected Bioware to keep their promise of making an RPG that is in spirit the successor of BG2, but with the second game of the series, they pulled out of that promise instead of actually addressing the issues of DA:O. What I meant in the paragraph you quoted was that simply making the combat action-oriented didn't fix anything. They just thought "oh shit they don't like the old-school style. okay, we'll just make it anime" instead of thinking WHY the old-school combat wasn't well-received. That's why I'm doubting that Bioware has any real vision for the Dragon Age series that they work towards.
