Bioware Sucks at Story telling

[Rooster Cogburn]

In my eyes a good RPG, during important choices makes you think for a few minutes "What should i choose?", they make you ponder the good and the bad of your decision, the only Bioware game that made me do that at some point was Dragon Age: Origin, all the others I wonder 90% of the time (quoting some one well known to these forums) "What option gives me the most Dick head points?"

This isn't limited to BioWare, it applies to just about any game with a choice system. The player, not feeling the emotional weight of the decisions being made (because unless you're extremely empathetic towards fictional characters, it's still just a game you can switch off and come back to whenever you like) must choose on the basis of what will have the best effect on their game. We have very little emotional stake in whether Kaiden or Ashley dies, so instead we concern ourselves with which character is most useful to our playstyle or annoys us least, which for me - using both criteria - meant that poor Kaiden had to go boom.

The inherent issue of a moral choice system is that it is just that, a system. A mechanic in a game to be exploited by the player for the ideal results, because that's how games work. It removes the ability to care too much about such things because instead of caring for the characters you're caring about your own progression through the game and you're not going to do something that deliberately fucks up the game you've spent hours playing through. Yes, sometimes there are occasions when we'll become emotionally involved but they're few and far between. Choice systems are just like a game with a limited inventory; we decide what to carry based on what gives us the best results, not because we have an emotional attachment to our favourite shotgun.

I think you're right on, but I think there is still a role for choice systems. I know players can feel the emotional weight of decisions in games because I hear them griping about shitty stories so much. It's the reason people don't want to hear spoilers until they play a game for themselves. A book, after all, is something you can turn off (close) and come back to. Those characters don't even have faces I can see. It just happens that Bioware makes little attempt to appeal to this emotional response, choosing instead to reward the player through game mechanics and effects on gameplay. In Mass Effect, the choice to

Spoiler: Major Spoiler.

shoot or not shoot the Krogan

was dumb because only a crazy person would choose the latter. There's not a lot of tension or emotion for the player when the right choice is obvious. Instead, the primary motivation to make the choice is to collect points that I need for something else. Wow, fucking riveting non-linear storytelling, Bioware. In Dragon Age: Origins, I felt conflicted about whether I should

Spoiler: Major Spoiler. Seriously, do not click if you have not played Dragon Age.

lop Loghain's head off.

Nothing to do with gameplay, I just wasn't sure if I ought to. Fallout: New Vegas presents the player with choices that impact important characters and the world at large. I was really curious what would happen if I chose different options. Nothing to do with seeking some in-game reward. Just my need-to-know. And people really seem interested in Bioware's shitty romance plots. I really don't think they are doing that only for a perceived in-game reward. In fact, I'll bet you could give the player a choice between a mechanical advantage and an emotional reward and get a lot of people to choose the latter.

It's not that choice systems are no good, it's just that Bioware blows at it.

 

[King of Asgaard]

I've always said that Bioware are good writers, not authors.
By that I mean, they can write good dialogue and characters, but when it comes to an actual story, they just dust off the nearest cliché and make a game with it.

 

[PPB]

I think the strength of BioWare's games was never the writing taken by itself, but more the fact that everything just works well together (or at least used to) when you look at the big picture. Their stories might not be the best, but the're not bad either. When you add good characters and gameplay on top of that, it evens out to a very solid game in the end.

 

[Lunar Templar]

i skimmed the wall of text, but agree with what i read. i have like 4 bioware games, of which i've only beaten 1 and that took 6 months cause i got BORED with it and stopped caring, only to pick it back up later and finish it cause, 'fuck it, I'm almost done anyway' to which i can't actually remember a damn thing about it except there where elves and a dood in gold armor died in the beginning.

so clearly DA:O didn't make a lasting impression, but then, i also have KoToR 1, never been off the first planet, ME 1, which i've only gotten as far as getting Tali before i stopped caring, and ME2, which i've never fired up, cause i got ME 1 an 2 in a steam sale and i was going to play them in order.

so yeah, i kinda think Bioware sucks at their jobs to

 

[SonicWaffle]

Obsidian in particular, for all their bugginess, are really good at crafting choices which are based on player input, not on mechanical design. In KOTOR 2, for instance, the most important choices thematically in the game have nothing to do with gameplay mechanics. The game simply presents you with a moral dilemma or hypothesis, and asks how you will react. The player isn't given Light Side or Dark Side points, they are simply asked to give their own reaction to a dilemma presented by the developers.

Certainly, but by then the player has already decided (for the most part) on whether they'll be light side or dark side based on the gameplay benefits either side gives. As such, once a characters side has been chosen - by virtue of mechanics, in this case what "spells" the player wants their character to use - they are more likely to choose dialogue options which correspond to that side. No, the game isn't forcing players to do so or giving any tangible benefit for doing it, but I sincerely doubt that many people decided to roll a Sith and then gave Jedi answers to the majority of the dialogue. The gameplay mechanic determines character personality, and then conversation flows from that standpoint.

New Vegas is another example I'd hold up. The only 'morality' system that matters in NV is the mechanic which tracks how liked or disliked you are by the various factions of the Mojave. It isn't a binary system, or one that encourages you to game the system in any way. It simply tracks how you act towards certain factions, and makes them react accordingly.

Except that in certain cases, the player does have to game the system for tangible benefits. In this case, it's that certain companions will not join the player unless the Courier has certain faction alignments. If you want a good-guy companion because of the perks they grant, then your alignment will have to reflect theirs.

The result is that the player is encouraged to choose the faction whose ideology they believe fits the situational context the best. Do you think discipline and marshal law are the best way to survive a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Best side with the Legion. Think that people should still be allowed to determine the direction of their own lives? Best side with Mr House, and all his pro-private enterprise thinking. Think that organisation and infrastructure are best tempered with the freedom to choose your own direction in life? Probably best to go with NCR.

It's a nice thought, but I don't think it really works that way. In very broad strokes, the game is painted as a battle of good (albeit not perfect) vs evil (albeit somewhat more complex) in the form of NCR vs the Legion. The actions of the Legion are presented as so morally reprehensible - slavery, rape, mutilation and murder being the standard MO - that the faction choice is quickly reduced to the moral choice system we see in other games. Even if you believe in the Legion's method for ruling the Mojave, it's a lot harder to side with them when the game makes it emphatically clear that they're the bad guys.

Obsidian are very good at creating stories where the choices are not tied to binary, simplistic morality systems. They seem to understand that choices offered in game should all seem valid to the player given context, and thus I'd argue that they create games where trying to game the system very rarely has any practical benefits. Indeed, trying to game the morality system in an Obsidian game is usually missing the point of an Obsidian game, namely that freedom of choice and consequence are inherently tied together, and you cannot have one without the other.

Overtly perhaps they aren't about binary moral choice systems, but beneath the surface it boils down to the same thing. As in KOTOR2, which started to make an interesting exploration into whether dark was the same thing as evil, ruined that by having the Sith be so cartoonishly evil that any player with a conscience would find it hard to turn to the dark side. The Jedi may have been ineffectual assholes, but the game makes it clear that they are the right path to choose regardless of their faults.

Similarly, in New Vegas factions (beyond the two major ones) are generally divided on moral lines. Innocent townsfolk, good guys like the Followers, criminals and bad guys like the Raiders or the Powder Gangers...all of them slot fairly neatly into a moral system, and the game never shies away from pointing out who wears the white hats and who wears the black. It's a disguised morality system, not entirely tied to karma (though given the karma boost/drop that can come from killing members of various factions, not that well disguised...) but it is still a moral choice system.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

Bioware has done a fantastic job crafting crazy interesting worlds for us to explore. I would love to play another game series that allowed me to explore a Sci-Fi universe filled with history and culture while dodging bullets with squad mates, but Bioware is one of only company that manages to deliver.

At the end of the day, you criticizing them only validates their impact on the video game industry. You can say their games suck all you want, but you know you bought them and played them because they are the very best the industry has to offer. You say nothing of all the other B rated shit out there because you didn't play them because they suck and you didn't expect any better.

There are plenty of things I don't like about their games, but I'm not gonna pretend that they're not one of the best around.

But I guess that's personal opinion. I spent alot of time thinking about my choices in DA:O and the Mass Effect games. The only problem was that I was entirely clear sometimes what the consequences were

 

[deth2munkies]

Bioware is excellent at telling a story.

Key word "a". Their plot and characters are eerily similar to each other, but they are well written in a vacuum.

 

[Something Amyss]

Bioware does a good job with characters, dialogue and emotional moments. Their plots could use some work.

Their characters are rarely more than paper-thin templates. dialogue is rarely more than expository text blocks, and I'm sorry, but if I don't give a damn for the characters or the dialogue, it's hard to give a damn about the emotional moments. The games are not entirely devoid of these elements, but praising them for rather token attempts.....

 

[DragonStorm247]

I thought ME2 did a good job in presenting moral choices. The dilemmas of keeping/destroying the genophage data, rewriting/destroying the heretic geth, those decisions were great.

 

[Mordekaien]

Last game i tried to replay recently was Jade Empire and Kotor, I was not able to play more than a few hours before stopping and wondering, "why the f*** am I doing this?", which is never a good sign i a story driven game.

Nah, I grant you that the plots are nothing new or even original but, I really recommend you to play through Jade Empire- because that story was badass.

I never liked their games for story actually, the only game I play from them on a regular basis is Neverwinter Nights, and that's as unoriginal as the words Fantasy RPG sound.

 

[Skillswords]

I think i may get a bit of hate from this, but moral choice was probably best used in shadow the hedgehog, sure all the characters, plot, and language was shit, but the choices you made determined your path through the game and which faction you fought for. it's the only moral choice game that feels like your decisions made an impact on the world around you, as you see yourself fighting in either the invader's hub or ruined cities.

I guess fable 2 and 3 had this as well, but not to the same degree and had much more flaws (bugs, boring combat, etc)

 

[Fappy]

Bioware does a good job with characters, dialogue and emotional moments. Their plots could use some work.

Their characters are rarely more than paper-thin templates. dialogue is rarely more than expository text blocks, and I'm sorry, but if I don't give a damn for the characters or the dialogue, it's hard to give a damn about the emotional moments. The games are not entirely devoid of these elements, but praising them for rather token attempts.....

Praising them is a bit of an overstatement. I admit that they are not the best at any of these, but occasionally do them quiet well. The Wrex/Mordin/Genophage story arc is a good example of what they can do when they are at the top of their game.

 

[The Madman]

I've always seen Bioware as excelling at making more 'Hollywood' style adventures; Light on plot and rife with tropes but entertaining and endearing nonetheless. The characters aren't particularly original nor their story very complex but for what they are they tend to be well done and generally quite likeable which matched with generally solid gameplay and a flair for the dramatic make for a fun if not very deep experience.

And on a related note if Baldur's Gate is the only game of theirs you haven't tried and you're already a fan of other similar infinity engine games like Planescape: Torment you really should pick it up. The Baldur's Gate series really was Bioware's best work in my mind! Easily available from gog.com too and I'd be happy to give you recommendations and help with any mods you might want to install to make these older gems a bit more modern.

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

Obsidian in particular, for all their bugginess, are really good at crafting choices which are based on player input, not on mechanical design. In KOTOR 2, for instance, the most important choices thematically in the game have nothing to do with gameplay mechanics. The game simply presents you with a moral dilemma or hypothesis, and asks how you will react. The player isn't given Light Side or Dark Side points, they are simply asked to give their own reaction to a dilemma presented by the developers.

Certainly, but by then the player has already decided (for the most part) on whether they'll be light side or dark side based on the gameplay benefits either side gives. As such, once a characters side has been chosen - by virtue of mechanics, in this case what "spells" the player wants their character to use - they are more likely to choose dialogue options which correspond to that side. No, the game isn't forcing players to do so or giving any tangible benefit for doing it, but I sincerely doubt that many people decided to roll a Sith and then gave Jedi answers to the majority of the dialogue. The gameplay mechanic determines character personality, and then conversation flows from that standpoint.

New Vegas is another example I'd hold up. The only 'morality' system that matters in NV is the mechanic which tracks how liked or disliked you are by the various factions of the Mojave. It isn't a binary system, or one that encourages you to game the system in any way. It simply tracks how you act towards certain factions, and makes them react accordingly.

Except that in certain cases, the player does have to game the system for tangible benefits. In this case, it's that certain companions will not join the player unless the Courier has certain faction alignments. If you want a good-guy companion because of the perks they grant, then your alignment will have to reflect theirs.

The result is that the player is encouraged to choose the faction whose ideology they believe fits the situational context the best. Do you think discipline and marshal law are the best way to survive a post-apocalyptic wasteland? Best side with the Legion. Think that people should still be allowed to determine the direction of their own lives? Best side with Mr House, and all his pro-private enterprise thinking. Think that organisation and infrastructure are best tempered with the freedom to choose your own direction in life? Probably best to go with NCR.

It's a nice thought, but I don't think it really works that way. In very broad strokes, the game is painted as a battle of good (albeit not perfect) vs evil (albeit somewhat more complex) in the form of NCR vs the Legion. The actions of the Legion are presented as so morally reprehensible - slavery, rape, mutilation and murder being the standard MO - that the faction choice is quickly reduced to the moral choice system we see in other games. Even if you believe in the Legion's method for ruling the Mojave, it's a lot harder to side with them when the game makes it emphatically clear that they're the bad guys.

Obsidian are very good at creating stories where the choices are not tied to binary, simplistic morality systems. They seem to understand that choices offered in game should all seem valid to the player given context, and thus I'd argue that they create games where trying to game the system very rarely has any practical benefits. Indeed, trying to game the morality system in an Obsidian game is usually missing the point of an Obsidian game, namely that freedom of choice and consequence are inherently tied together, and you cannot have one without the other.

Overtly perhaps they aren't about binary moral choice systems, but beneath the surface it boils down to the same thing. As in KOTOR2, which started to make an interesting exploration into whether dark was the same thing as evil, ruined that by having the Sith be so cartoonishly evil that any player with a conscience would find it hard to turn to the dark side. The Jedi may have been ineffectual assholes, but the game makes it clear that they are the right path to choose regardless of their faults.

Similarly, in New Vegas factions (beyond the two major ones) are generally divided on moral lines. Innocent townsfolk, good guys like the Followers, criminals and bad guys like the Raiders or the Powder Gangers...all of them slot fairly neatly into a moral system, and the game never shies away from pointing out who wears the white hats and who wears the black. It's a disguised morality system, not entirely tied to karma (though given the karma boost/drop that can come from killing members of various factions, not that well disguised...) but it is still a moral choice system.

I would call this a good criticism of Obsidian's choice systems, but I still hold Fallout: New Vegas as proof that choice systems can motivate players for the choices they offer, not just mechanical gameplay advantages. It did irk me that certain factions seemed to complement different skills, but therein lies the proof: it irked me. I felt the game was pushing me to choose the NCR to complement my chosen skills (I don't remember why anymore). But I really liked what I had seen of The Legion and wanted to see more. I wanted to play the game in a way that provided me the best advantages, but I just had to pick The Legion. So I gave up mechanical advantage for the choice I wanted. In fact, I generally prioritized the story elements of choices I was given over the mechanical advantages I hoped to obtain.

So I agree with you insofar as in-game advantages can undermine the story/roleplay impact of choice, but I don't think this means they should stop providing choices. It means they should allow the player the freedom to weigh choices for what they are by removing them from mechanical gameplay advantages. And mechanical advantage definitely shouldn't be the only motivation to choose them, like in the example I used before in the 'spoiler' box.

 

[Juventus]

So the title is a bit baiting and allot of you will want my skin after this, but any way here i go.

for someone who claims bioware sucks, you sure have played a lot of bioware games. Most sane people stop buying things from a company after having one or two bad or less than satisfactory experiences


so what we have here is just another elite wannabe video game intellectual.

herp bioware sucks, but i still played 7+ of their games anyway derp.

 

[babinro]

How dare you have an opinion that goes against my favorite gaming company!

What you personally consider poor or lazy story writing I consider excellent.
Just a matter of opinion in this instance.

Bioware is the best at creating memorable characters that you can look back on fondly. The worlds they exist in are frequently excellent with either a cookie cutter or 'okay' story to push them onwards.
Dragon Age Origins being the stand out title where characters, world and story all shine in my opinion.
I can't argue you on ME 2&3. The story really is subpar in those games. Characters push that series forward along with nostalgia. I loved the moments and conversions I had with Mordin. I really didn't care what mission I was completing for him and why 90% of the time.

Bethesda falls short because the addition of choice comes with almost meaningless repercussions and hundreds of generic characters. I can do a ton of cool stuff but nobody cares including myself. They do have occasional gems in their side stories, but that's true with almost every RPG.

Square falls short because it eliminates nearly all choice and fails more often than not at making a notable character. The world in which the story is told is often ridiculous and hard to comprehend. By which I mean, I have no idea what is considered plausible or special in a final fantasy world. It often feels like characters can do whatever the story tells them to...but ONLY when the story told them so.

Note: I actually enjoy Bethesda and Square RPG's despite how harsh my comments come off towards them. A game is more than just it's story and characters after all.