Bioware Sucks at Story telling

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DioWallachia

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yaydod said:
DioWallachia said:
Forget all other games and just make a side by side comparation of PS:T and a Bioware RPG, to demostrate how can you make an scene that has emotional weight even when its mostly text based.
But that would be too easy, and it would feed the BioDrones lurking on the outskirts of the void.


Captcha: Umbrella Corporation... 0.o I might be in danger.
Come on, it will be an interesting read. Think of it as the equivalent of this blog: "Mother, May I See Metroid Other M" by Korval on Tv Tropes.

If there is logic to be had in your words, then BioDrones can just choke on the hard and long facts.
 

DioWallachia

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Jetsetneo said:
Plot structure? Yeah, theres only so many framing devices, especially in Video Games. Go from point A to point B, for Entertainment!
You kidding right? are you sure that there isnt more devisces that videogames can use?
 

Susan Arendt

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Jan 9, 2007
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hazabaza1 said:
Pretty much. Good characterisation though, some nice set pieces or whatever too.
Edit: Wait, why did you remove "at storytelling" from your title?
Because he wanted to goad people into reading his thread. The "imma pick up my flame shield now" is to similarly goad people into fighting with him. It's disingenuous, and ultimately unnecessary, given that the discussion is a perfectly valid one, with plenty of discussion value.

I personally adore BioWare's characters. For me, the overall adventure matters somewhat less than the people I'm taking the journey with. "Saving the world" certainly isn't the most original story ever, but the companions I do it with are what make the mission worthwhile.

I also think that some of the storytelling suffers from a result of simply trying to pad the playtime. Some of the missions in, say, Mass Effect are stunning examples of storytelling, while others are pretty clearly filler. Same for Dragon Age.
 

Something Amyss

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dangoball said:
All in all Bioware gave us some of the best characters in games. Granted, most of them are almost ancient history (Minsc, Edwin/a, HK-47), however they can still deliver (do I even have to mention Garrus?). They do, however have their weak moments (James Vega, Miranda - i never liked her, say what you will; Jan Jensen - never hated turnips so much...) and those are becoming more common.
Except those "best characters" in games are few and far between and the "weak moments" have always been more the standard. The fact that there are more of them now is kind of like saying the tide is coming in. Everything was already cold and damp. It's just gonna be more so now.

And honestly, I never got the fetish for Garrus. I'm not sure most people who have it do. He seems like he was just a meme that got out of hand. He seemed marginally better than a lot of your other squadmates in ME1 only because most of them sucked, and I honestly found Mordin and Thane to be far more interesting in game two, and even then, that's not saying much.

Vigormortis said:
Also, back-story and universe-lore that can be "found" through-out a game is nice and all, and I do enjoy it at times (like in Metroid Prime), but I don't really count it towards my judgement on a developers story-telling ability. If anything, those bits of "lore" are nothing more than short asides to the primary narrative. At least, when they're just log recordings or something equivalent. When back-story is intricately interwoven into the primary narrative, or subtly placed either in the environment or in character dialog, I absolutely adore it.
I'm inclined to agree with this part especially. While I'm a rather voracious reader most of the time, I kind of resent people confusing a game company handing you a history book with "storytelling." I honestly wouldn't mind a ME compendium--to me, the lore is the BEST FREAKING PART of the series--but that doesn't equate to good storytelling. I'm pro-lore, but don't beat me over the head with it then call it storytelling.

On a related note, I hate when "verbose" is confused with "quality." Though honestly, this isn't directed at Mass Effect so much as it is at the books I've been reading of late. I'm beginning to think "Epic Fantasy" means "the product of an author who takes 1000 pages to say what most people could say in 400." This is leaking into games, though, and Bioware is certainly an offender.
 
Sep 14, 2009
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while they aren't amazing, they are leagues better than quite a few devs out there, and they develop characters and backgrounds for them very well.

i mean, for all the people who say they produce rubbish, i'm honestly intrigued to see who you think is better at video game stories, and if you can do so much better, how are you not hired or are already writing?
 

Da Orky Man

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Apr 24, 2011
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The way I think of it is that Bioware are brilliantly at crafting both worlds and characters. Actual plotlines, not so good. Which is why i think they ought to work with Obsidian on something. The combination of a Bioware universe/characters with Obsidian level depth and story will turn out something wonderful to behold.
 

Mr.Squishy

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I'll freely admit that BioWare has a couple flaws here and there, but why are so many people ragging on them?
If you want uninspired and bland story, forgettable characters, boring quests, mediocre gameplay, shitty dialogue and terrible graphics, go with Bethesda (Excluding FO3 and NV, I quite liked those).
Go on. Name an interesting NPC in the Elder Scrolls series. Better yet, describe their personality. Tell me how they look visually distinct from any other jackshit down the street - and please, do make a case that they haven't been dredged up from the depths of the uncanny valley. Maybe add in a clever, funny, sad or otherwise stimulating line from them that isn't so much expository bullshit.
Did you somehow, by pure miracle, happen to be able to do it? Well, try doing it more than once. It's a lot harder than it sounds.
But surely, if their characters are limp, uninspired garbage, then surely the story makes up for it, yes?
Let's take a look at Oblivion and Skyrim.
In Oblivion, you're the chosen one in a time where demons are invading en masse, so you are tasked with finding mister deus ex machina and lugging him around, then gather some mcguffins and lo and behold, the threat vanishes pretty much instantly.
In Skyrim, you are the chosen one in a time where dragons are attacking en masse, then you fuck up a bunch of dragons, then a big dragon lad at the end.
That's what I remember of them, anywho, and I had to think really hard about what even happened in them. Great example of an immersive and touching story, yes?

My point is, BioWare is lambasted an awful lot for a few errors, while Bethesda is given free pass because...fuck, I dunno, the kiddies liked skyrim and the hardcore nerds liked Morrowind (Aka uncanny valley simulator with shitty combat and graphics).
That makes me kind of sad.
 

ADRB

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Apr 17, 2012
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-Ehh that was frustrating, 404 error happened a lot, needed to post then edit what I had to say to what I wanted.

Mr.Squishy said:
Go on. Name an interesting NPC in the Elder Scrolls series. Better yet, describe their personality. Tell me how they look visually distinct from any other jackshit down the street - and please, do make a case that they haven't been dredged up from the depths of the uncanny valley. Maybe add in a clever, funny, sad or otherwise stimulating line from them that isn't so much expository bullshit.
Did you somehow, by pure miracle, happen to be able to do it? Well, try doing it more than once. It's a lot harder than it sounds.
Bethesda's flaw seems to be in their ability to portray the characters they've made properly in the games, they've made some pretty interesting and unique characters within the lore that they show outside the games (Vivec, Tiber Septim, Reman, Pelinal, Alduin etc). However they seem to be awful at showing what they've done whithin the games that they make. Actually, thinking about it, they do this with pretty much every aspect of their lore, which is frustrating to say the least.

Bioware's much better at writing FOR a game, and I much prefer the writing within their games to those within Bethesda's games.
 

Basement Cat

Keeping the Peace is Relaxing
Jul 26, 2012
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yaydod said:
So the title is a bit baiting and allot of you will want my skin after this, but any way here i go./

So there said what i wanted to say, now I'm going to pick this up
Lessee, now: Fillet knife? Check. Whet stone? Check. Scraper? Check. Salt? Check. Rust monster antennae? Check.

Nice fly. Juicy fly. Mmmmmm....

Step closer, now...come to Zen....
 

sobaka770

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Bioware are great at creating characters and conveying tone and tension and bonds between them. Sure you might say their choices are all the same, but it's a proven system that makes you choose your own path.
If Bioware games were mediocre, the really bad ending of ME3 would not have such a resonance in all the spheres of media. Clearly the guys are doing something right. There's no problem with the same story if it's a good one, and if the world is interesting. I mean people liked Avatar, and that movie had a horrible, dull and predictable plot.
 

nexus

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Fappy said:
Bioware does a good job with characters, dialogue and emotional moments. Their plots could use some work.
I agree with this assessment.

Character arcs are always good, dialogue is the best in the business, I'd like to see more emotional moments though. The emotions are generally not that profound, and they miss a Lot of easy marks on that one.

They just aim too high with their plots. Huge, epic, gargantuan plot lines of mind-altering proportions.. but then you find yourself always in the micro-moment getting ship parts for someone's junk boat. Meanwhile, the main-arcs are just stringing you along, like a carrot on a stick. It always under-delivers in the end.
 
Jan 13, 2012
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Well, they do a better job at telling stories than most other games devs. Also, I'm easily amused so I... I.... omg a butterfly......
 

Doom972

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I know you are trying to sound like a badass Yahtzee-style critic, but to me you just seem like someone trying to get responses for stating an unpopular opinion, or doesn't have much experience with Bioware games.

If you are going to criticise them, you have to play the Baldur's Gate series. No way around it.
Also, I suggest you play through Neverwinter Night's expansions. You can skip the original campaign, since it has a completely different and less interesting plot.

If you played KOTOR and just found yourslef thinking "why the f*** am I doing this?", I really can't help you. I guess fighting the Sith just isn't your thing. The first planet - Taris, isn't as good as the rest of the game, so if you haven't finished it I suggest that you do. This game has some of the most well-developed characters in a game.
 

TheDrunkNinja

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In a similar way, you could say that the Avengers' plot wasn't anything special to write home about, but the characters and how they interact with each other are what puts you in those theater seats. When they're at the top of their game, they're at the top of their fucking game.
 

IceStar100

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Jan 5, 2009
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I wish I could say you where wrong but the fact they every bioware squad mate can be placed in a catagory Ice queen Morriganna Dragon age Miranada ME2 Insane Shale Dragon age HK-47 KOTOR Grunt ME2 proves it

It like changing the set peice of a play but keeping the same story.
 

Basement Cat

Keeping the Peace is Relaxing
Jul 26, 2012
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Okay, now that I've had time to read the other comments I'll throw my own two cents in.

Bioware is easily my favorite company because of it's deep writing. One of the other posters said the walls of writing turned him off, but that's one of the things that has me coming back and replaying the games again and again so I can wring every nuance and nugget out.

I understand the argument about the apparent formulaic plots, but I'm drawn to remember how formulaic some of the most successful writers in american history were. Louis l'Amour, Edgar Rice Burroughs, etc, you could pick up any Sackett or Tarzan or John Carter novel and predict the plot from page one (remember that there are only seven basic story plots).

And it works. Both authors sold not just millions but hundreds of millions of books between them.

Which brings me to Bioware's usage of predictable plots.

Bioware's writing appeals certain gamers not because the players can predict what will happen but because they reacognize that they can anticipate an entertaining ride. And because the authors are themselves aware of the need to keep each new story fresh they manage to include sufficient plot twists to keep things humming along nicely.

Avatar's successful haul at the box office is a handy billion-dollar-profit example of how classic themes appeal to people no matter how well worn the theme may be.

As for characters Bioware has managed to create quite a few memorable characters. Granted Bastilla is a jedi clone of Aribeth, but Linu La'neral, HK-47, Morrigan, Sten, Ogren, and others are characters that stick with you.

But it seems you don't need to worry about Bioware producing any more bad games. According to the news two key Bioware execs are leaving, and it seems that Bioware is about to go belly up soon just like so many other successful companies EA bought up and broke with their desire to rush unfinished games out the door while homogenizing everything into bland sawdust.

It's sad. I foresee a thread soon coming into being with many of us bemoaning EA's completed murder of Bioware. And when the day comes we'll be acknowledging that Bioware hat its problems but it was at least a good and successful company before it joined EA and the quality control department got its pink slips.
 

Sangnz

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Bioware excel at characterization more so than any other developer imo, Jon Irenicus being one of the most memorable bad guys ever, the ability to make me shed tears in very personal scenes in the mass effect games, especially 3 I cried like a little girl. Even their side characters are typically well done and memorable.

Bioware tell good stories (this is subjective really), the bg series, dragon age games and mass effect are all good stories, they engage you and make you want to find out what comes next, admittedly a lot of that sometimes comes from finding out what happens with your party than the main plot.

Bioware SUCKS at endings, DA:O was ok, DA2 was awful and we all saw the shit storm that hit with ME3. They have a very bad habit of dropping the ball a bit in the last 5% of the game.
 

crazyrabbits

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Yeah, I have to agree with the general sentiment in the thread.

Their plots have been, as of late, irrelevant, misguided and silly. DAII shifted the action to a single city and tried to give weight to a non-descript "Champion's" rise to power, which didn't work and got lost in a nonsensical mage vs. templar plot. ME2, while having some of the best characterization in any Bioware game, can be best summed up by the line "Hero solves personal problems, kills irrelevant side faction". ME3 resorted to a nonsensical McGuffin / Deus Ex Machina to resolve its story.

Their characters, by and large, are really well-written.