Birthers become 'Deathers'

[artanis_neravar]

If he wasn't dead we are taking a huge risk saying that he was, because all they have to do is have him make another tape holding the news paper from a a time after he was reported to be killed

Fixed your mistake!

Also, I surely do agree, if Osama didn't "really" die, he would have made a tape showing he is alive... With a middle finger sticking out...

Thank you I can't believe I actually made that mistake (no sarcasm intended)

 

[blindthrall]

Well, it all comes down to the simple fact that Obama is a public person, and the accusations about his citizenship matter to a LOT of people, enough people for it to be visible on a national level.

False, just plain false, this issue only matters to a very small group of very vocal people. Just because they are loud and everyone can hear them DOES NOT make them the majority.

They don't have to be a majority, just a sizable group.

Truthfully, like most things right now it's probably right around 50% with a lot of left wingers wanting to act like it's a smaller number.

The country is polarized, and this kind of thing falls right around party lines. Obama's supporters feeling he shouldn't have to justify anything, and those who don't support him thinking he should have to answer the questions put before him. In this case we're looking at bigger questions than you usually see, and which have as a result lead to a little more discussion.

If Bush's citizenship was in doubt, or he "flushed" Bin Ladin's body, the same questions would be being asked, and the breakdown with be similar, but it would be the opposite people from what you see now on each side.

It is nowhere near 50%, not even close

You vastly underestimate how many people hate Obama. And I mean hate, not just the "You could have been so much more" disappointment I feel.

 

[artanis_neravar]

Well, it all comes down to the simple fact that Obama is a public person, and the accusations about his citizenship matter to a LOT of people, enough people for it to be visible on a national level.

False, just plain false, this issue only matters to a very small group of very vocal people. Just because they are loud and everyone can hear them DOES NOT make them the majority.

They don't have to be a majority, just a sizable group.

Truthfully, like most things right now it's probably right around 50% with a lot of left wingers wanting to act like it's a smaller number.

The country is polarized, and this kind of thing falls right around party lines. Obama's supporters feeling he shouldn't have to justify anything, and those who don't support him thinking he should have to answer the questions put before him. In this case we're looking at bigger questions than you usually see, and which have as a result lead to a little more discussion.

If Bush's citizenship was in doubt, or he "flushed" Bin Ladin's body, the same questions would be being asked, and the breakdown with be similar, but it would be the opposite people from what you see now on each side.

It is nowhere near 50%, not even close

You vastly underestimate how many people hate Obama. And I mean hate, not just the "You could have been so much more" disappointment I feel.

You vastly overestimate the number of people who hate Obama, and you vastly overestimate the number of people who hate Obama and think he wasn't born in this country

 

[Snotnarok]

President Obama will constantly be questioned about everything that's done because he's both a democrat and black, and no one trusts either in this country apparently.

When he finally did show his birth certificate, they immediately asked "how did you get into college". Seriously, if Bush Jr can get into college, anyone can.

 

[Nieroshai]

That's funny, I've been hearing the stories that Osama isn't dead from liberals and people in the middle east, and not a word of it from any Conservatives I know.

 

[Warforger]

They were stupid when they were "birthers" and now they're just as stupid as "deathers".

Honestly when I read the title I thought they were going to say that the real Obama is dead and this Kenyan immigrant took over the identity.

Why can't people ever just accept news as the truth? Why do people always have to question every little thing? (lol, says the person asking all the questions)

It's fine to question everything, as long as you're not being retarded when you're doing it.

 

[Belated]

There's no reason NOT to release the photos. And our country is capable of handling them. We should be seeing real photos of war. Lots of them. But I don't feel like taking the time to explain why, so I'll let Jon Stewart [http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/05/about-late-last-night-jon-stewart-argues-for-release-of-bin-laden-death-photos.html?cid=6a00d8341c630a53ef014e8842bb35970d] do my arguing for me.

 

[Therumancer]

See, this right here is what derails these discussions. You can't make a valid arguement, so you have to start getting into absurdities. There is a big differance between every person having to be present, and having something like a body being made public.

You implied that no evidence was sufficient except actually seeing firsthand what was being claimed. In the case of Osama bin Laden, that would be seeing his corpse. In the case of the moon landings, by your own logic, it would be ferrying people to the moon.

]

... and see, that right there is what invalidates your attempts to discuss the matter with me. Your being deliberatly absurd. The differance between having a body to do DNA tests on and ferrying people to the moon (which is inherantly impractical, where maintaining access to the body is not) is so ridiculous that it removes any validity from a position you try and argue, especially when it comes to you trying to project that onto someone else.

I am more than willing to discuss the topic, but only when people are willing to do so reasonably, and really you aren't. Whether you like what I have to say or not, I'm at least fairly respectful of the issues in question.

You are the one who brought up the moon landing comparison

Actually I didn't, someone else raised it as an example of a conspiricy theory. I responded to it, as the initial mention wasn't presented so ridiculously.

 

[brodie21]

thoughts?

This article is bullshit. I've heard the people yammering about this. Some are also "birther"assholes, but just as many are "911 truthers" on the American left. To say that "birthers" are becoming "deathers" (which implies that they are ONLY conservatives) is dishonest and manipulative.
The "deather" idiots are a random assortment of many political dickheads.
The way you phrased this post also suggests you too are either an idiot or a dickhead.

the title was the same as the title on the article. i summarized it in a sentence and asked for peoples thoughts, how does that make me a dickhead? i say that in calling me a dickhead for posting an article i found you have proved yourself a total douchebag.

 

[masticina]

We talk about the same kind of people that call them self "Pro Life".. while still supporting Death Penalty and Wars.. some people are crazy. The unofficial leader of the Birthers is pretty much .. unable to think beyond certain parameters. It is like some people are born idiots.

I mean really most funny is when they praise Bush and all Bush done...

Seriously .. How earlier the Moderates take a stance against these idiots how better.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

... and see, that right there is what invalidates your attempts to discuss the matter with me. Your being deliberatly absurd. The differance between having a body to do DNA tests on and ferrying people to the moon (which is inherantly impractical, where maintaining access to the body is not) is so ridiculous that it removes any validity from a position you try and argue, especially when it comes to you trying to project that onto someone else.

lulz. See, here's the thing. I made the reference to a crazy person's plan to prove that the moon landings existed because your suggestion for confirming bin Laden's death was shipping his across the country to be given DNA tests by anyone who feels like it before putting it on display for all to see.

See? I compared absurdity to absurdity. Because the last two people to have their bodies preserved and sent on a tour of their nation were Lenin and Ho Chi Minh, and both of the groups behind those efforts had a few of their screws loose, too.

I am more than willing to discuss the topic, but only when people are willing to do so reasonably, and really you aren't. Whether you like what I have to say or not, I'm at least fairly respectful of the issues in question.

Okay...then if you're so hung up on that one section of my post, just work with the rest of it. As it stands, I'm left to assume that you're raising hell about a minor portion of my overall post because you don't have any reasonable answers to the rest of it.

 

[Therumancer]

... and see, that right there is what invalidates your attempts to discuss the matter with me. Your being deliberatly absurd. The differance between having a body to do DNA tests on and ferrying people to the moon (which is inherantly impractical, where maintaining access to the body is not) is so ridiculous that it removes any validity from a position you try and argue, especially when it comes to you trying to project that onto someone else.

lulz. See, here's the thing. I made the reference to a crazy person's plan to prove that the moon landings existed because your suggestion for confirming bin Laden's death was shipping his across the country to be given DNA tests by anyone who feels like it before putting it on display for all to see.

See? I compared absurdity to absurdity. Because the last two people to have their bodies preserved and sent on a tour of their nation were Lenin and Ho Chi Minh, and both of the groups behind those efforts had a few of their screws loose, too.

I am more than willing to discuss the topic, but only when people are willing to do so reasonably, and really you aren't. Whether you like what I have to say or not, I'm at least fairly respectful of the issues in question.

Okay...then if you're so hung up on that one section of my post, just work with the rest of it. As it stands, I'm left to assume that you're raising hell about a minor portion of my overall post because you don't have any reasonable answers to the rest of it.

That is exactly why your not willing to discuss the case seriously. There are light years of differance between the moon landing conspiricy and making DNA availible to public groups who want to independantly verify a claim like this. DNA samples from animals, and even still living people are made availible the same way. A large number of people can test off of a relatively small sample of DNA, such as in a murder case where you might have half a dozen parties (the state, the accused, the family of the victim, business interests with a stake in the estate of the victim, etc...) who all want and are entitled to independant verification of the DNA. The number of sources able to easily test and verify the DNA has a lot to do with how powerful a source of information it is in cases like this, because your not at the mercy of one paticular guy or group of people whose word you have to take for it.

As far as putting Bin Ladin's remains on display, that is fundementally no differant than the way remains like mummies, skulls, and skeletal remains of early man, not to mention the remains of the retarded or deformed in "museums of the macabre" at the momet. The only concern is that doing this with a well known person might upset the people who supported him to begin with, but then again that should be a non-factor given the situation we're dealing with. Cowtowing to those people in any respect is inherantly a bad idea.

See, the Moon Landing is something that would require fundementally ridiculous actions to prove or disprove if your going to run with one of those conspiricy theories. What's more not many people have any kind of an actual need to verify such things. Whether we landed on the moon or not, doesn't really influance anyone's lif. With Bin Ladin what I've suggested is well within our capabilities, and has actual relevency to bringing closure to at least one aspect of a major issue in modern society.

Please note, I'd be making similar demands no matter who "got him" it's not just about Obama. I'd say the same thing about Mccain, or even be advocating going to war against an ally to seize the remains if anothr party "got him" and refused to allow this degree of verification. Generally speaking the people defending the current desicians are Obama-ites, who want this to remain unquestioned because it supports the leader they want to do so, they don't like the guy being questioned, and want something like this that has a chance to lock in another term for him. To such people another term of Obama is worth the possible deception in killing Osama.

Really, the only arguement that can be made for not allowing the public display of and testing of the remains is a spiritual one, and as a nation with a seperation of church and state that shouldn't be a factor under these circumstances.

Understand I'm also one of the people who has opposed efforts at appeasement by goverments in the first world to return human remains to their country of origin when they were sold. An example of this would be with the aforementioned Mummies where a lot of them have been returned to countries like Egypt despite the wishes of the legitimate owners. All arguements about "historical signifigance" and "disrespect" aside, the bottom line was a lot of remains like that were released, or sold, to private collectors through most of history. The Egyptians didn't care about such things until fairly recently, and even did things like using mummies as fuel for trains and such. Some explorer or tourist who wanted to bring a dead king and his sarcophogus home as a souveneir was viewed as being harmless. I have issues in cases where such things were brought home by a soldier after a war (before looting was the crime it is now) or outright sold and shipped back with the knowlege of customs. In a lot of cases the increaisng concern over such things being that foreign goverments have come to realize the value of such things, and are doing it on a power trip, or so they can take the mummies and then get huge amounts of money by leasing them to museums for display anyway. This *IS* a differant kind of situation (and no need to point that out) but the point is that I don't think human remains deserve any special treatment just by being human remains. This is like anything else seized by our goverment in a time of war, it shouldn't be given undue consideration as far as testing or whatever just because it's human remains. The only real reason for doing so anyway at this point is to prevent access to information. If we for example knew Osama died from say medical complications through the intelligence community, and instead nailed one of his body doubles and decided to say "we got him" for Obama's political benefit, that's a big deal. It's kind of telling that the goverment wouldn't release the body to public examination, that's kind of ridiculous. Also destroying the body as opposed to turning it over to another nation, or giving it a "proper" burial in a US mosque or whatever guarantees noone will EVER be able to do testing on it, and that's the problem. It's not even a case of say having to get permission from the Saudis for further testing, it's just flat out gone.

Of course since DNA testing can be done through bones and such, and the amount of time bodies can survive in the water, we also get to look at the wonderful situation where in the coming decades people are going to "find" Osama's body. Of course given that the goverment claimed the DNA matched, you can't prove them wrong off of a found body, they can always claim they disposed of a differant one, and thus they could only be proven right through matching DNA... which is what makes this such a joke.

All told though I'm done with discussing the subject at least for the moment.







Whether you agree with me or not isn't important. It's increasingly apparent we're going to have to agree to disagree, so I'm not going to say anything more on the subject. As it is I probably should have just stuck to my guns from the last time I said that, but figured this needed a response.

 

[Char-Nobyl]

That is exactly why your not willing to discuss the case seriously. There are light years of differance between the moon landing conspiricy and making DNA availible to public groups who want to independantly verify a claim like this. DNA samples from animals, and even still living people are made availible the same way. A large number of people can test off of a relatively small sample of DNA, such as in a murder case where you might have half a dozen parties (the state, the accused, the family of the victim, business interests with a stake in the estate of the victim, etc...) who all want and are entitled to independant verification of the DNA. The number of sources able to easily test and verify the DNA has a lot to do with how powerful a source of information it is in cases like this, because your not at the mercy of one paticular guy or group of people whose word you have to take for it.

And what's going to be their frame of reference, hm? You don't seem to grasp how DNA testing works: it's done by matching a recently-taken sample to one that is already on record as belonging to the person in question.

Now, riddle me this: how many independent DNA labs have Osama bin Laden's DNA on record? Yeah, I thought so. If they wanted to verify anything, they'd need an existing sample from the people who already have one (re: the government). And testing DNA samples sent by the government to be matched against samples also sent by the government doesn't seem very air-tight to someone as paranoid as you.

As far as putting Bin Ladin's remains on display, that is fundementally no differant than the way remains like mummies, skulls, and skeletal remains of early man, not to mention the remains of the retarded or deformed in "museums of the macabre" at the momet.

Except that those have historical significance. We don't put bones of an ancient Egyptian on display and say, "Hey, this is the corpse of an Egyptian. Cool." We show the remains that reflect the burial rites for their upper echelons. Even then, the raiding of the pyramids is generally accepted to have been a dick move. And the bones of early humans? Again, historical significance.

The only concern is that doing this with a well known person might upset the people who supported him to begin with, but then again that should be a non-factor given the situation we're dealing with. Cowtowing to those people in any respect is inherantly a bad idea.

Or, alternatively, we're doing it out of respect for the actual followers of Islam. Their burial rites don't call for internment of the body within 24 hours "unless he's a massive dick." It's universal. You tend to run into problems when you start making exceptions to rules based on popular opinion.

And how is "not pissing on Islam" considered to be pandering to Al Qaeda?

See, the Moon Landing is something that would require fundementally ridiculous actions to prove or disprove if your going to run with one of those conspiricy theories. What's more not many people have any kind of an actual need to verify such things. Whether we landed on the moon or not, doesn't really influance anyone's lif. With Bin Ladin what I've suggested is well within our capabilities, and has actual relevency to bringing closure to at least one aspect of a major issue in modern society.

Sure it did. Do you think the space race was just for shits and giggles? The entire point was that the US and Soviet Union each thought the other would deploy weapons in orbit if they got to space first. That was a pretty big deal during the Cold War.

Please note, I'd be making similar demands no matter who "got him" it's not just about Obama. I'd say the same thing about Mccain, or even be advocating going to war against an ally to seize the remains if anothr party "got him" and refused to allow this degree of verification.

Wow. Really? You would declare war on any group that claimed to kill Osama bin Laden and didn't mail us his corpse? Brilliant, Holmes.

Generally speaking the people defending the current desicians are Obama-ites, who want this to remain unquestioned because it supports the leader they want to do so, they don't like the guy being questioned, and want something like this that has a chance to lock in another term for him. To such people another term of Obama is worth the possible deception in killing Osama.

And do you have numbers for that? Evidence that everyone who believes the word of the US government, the military, etc is obviously a raving Obama supporter?

Really, the only arguement that can be made for not allowing the public display of and testing of the remains is a spiritual one, and as a nation with a seperation of church and state that shouldn't be a factor under these circumstances.

It's like you heard "separation of church and state" in elementary school and assumed the absolute extreme of it. American government is heavily influenced by religion, and the "separation of church and state" thing is only in place so government can't interfere in religious affairs.

Understand I'm also one of the people who has opposed efforts at appeasement by goverments in the first world to return human remains to their country of origin when they were sold. An example of this would be with the aforementioned Mummies where a lot of them have been returned to countries like Egypt despite the wishes of the legitimate owners.

The "legitimate owners"? You mean the Egyptians? Because it sure as hell wasn't the British.

All arguements about "historical signifigance" and "disrespect" aside, the bottom line was a lot of remains like that were released, or sold, to private collectors through most of history.

Even the ones that were "sold" were effectively stolen. If you bribe a government official into letting you take a national treasure out of the country, you aren't buying it.

The Egyptians didn't care about such things until fairly recently,

Because they only recently got their affairs together enough to address the issue of foreign powers looting their history.

and even did things like using mummies as fuel for trains and such.

...what? I sincerely hope you have a citation for this.

This *IS* a differant kind of situation (and no need to point that out) but the point is that I don't think human remains deserve any special treatment just by being human remains.

Pretty much everyone else on Earth begs to differ. In the US, there are specific and serious criminal charges for mistreating a corpse.

This is like anything else seized by our goverment in a time of war, it shouldn't be given undue consideration as far as testing or whatever just because it's human remains. The only real reason for doing so anyway at this point is to prevent access to information. If we for example knew Osama died from say medical complications through the intelligence community, and instead nailed one of his body doubles and decided to say "we got him" for Obama's political benefit, that's a big deal. It's kind of telling that the goverment wouldn't release the body to public examination, that's kind of ridiculous. Also destroying the body as opposed to turning it over to another nation, or giving it a "proper" burial in a US mosque or whatever guarantees noone will EVER be able to do testing on it, and that's the problem. It's not even a case of say having to get permission from the Saudis for further testing, it's just flat out gone.

Brilliant, Holmes. You seem to have completely missed what I said about not making his burial site a shrine, which a marked location of burial would have done. It's hilarious that you think burying it in a mosque (laughable already) in the United States is a good idea, mostly because I doubt any mosques like the idea of being torched within the week.

Of course since DNA testing can be done through bones and such, and the amount of time bodies can survive in the water, we also get to look at the wonderful situation where in the coming decades people are going to "find" Osama's body. Of course given that the goverment claimed the DNA matched, you can't prove them wrong off of a found body, they can always claim they disposed of a differant one, and thus they could only be proven right through matching DNA... which is what makes this such a joke.

And I reiterate my previous point about you being paranoid and insatiable. You'd be grossly dissatisfied with anything short of your asinine "put de bode on deesplay an den buri it een Amerika" plan.

All told though I'm done with discussing the subject at least for the moment.

Discussing? I'm actually addressing individual points that you make. You just quote me...and then make a wall of text re-wording what you've already said.

Whether you agree with me or not isn't important.

I'm pretty sure that's the mindset of a sociopath condensed into a single sentence.

It's increasingly apparent we're going to have to agree to disagree, so I'm not going to say anything more on the subject. As it is I probably should have just stuck to my guns from the last time I said that, but figured this needed a response.

In response, I'll just post a few colorful similes.

You're such a unique kind of crazy that tinfoil hats debate your existence around campfires. In some distant pocket dimension, the demonic personification of insanity read your post before putting a gun in his mouth. Hitler read your philosophy regarding the recently deceased, shook his head, and said, "That's cold, man." Tea Party movements refuse you membership because they don't want to look like a fringe group. Everything about you is so backwards, your mother gave birth to you out of her mouth.