Blizzad reveals new characters for Overwatch

[NPC009]

Your failure to recognise the United Kingdom as just that, a union of kingdoms, cockney is just England (and south England at that) what about the other countries? We see it all the time in the media.

#1: "Oh I've visited to the UK"
#2: "Oh I? Whereabouts did you go?"
#1: "London"

At least Valve did Scotland in TF2, makes a change.

Dude, this happens to pretty much every country that's big enough to have some noticeable diversity. People just go with something iconic, because it's sure to be recognised as something from that country. US? Texas, New York, Las Vegas or LA. I mean, in Overwatch the US got a cowboy. So, yeah. Japan? Tokyo, always Tokyo. (Or Edo, because samurai or ninja.) Or a little closer to your home: Holland is not the same as The Netherlands.

 

[Phasmal]

Your failure to recognise the United Kingdom as just that, a union of kingdoms, cockney is just England (and south England at that) what about the other countries? We see it all the time in the media.

#1: "Oh I've visited to the UK"
#2: "Oh I? Whereabouts did you go?"
#1: "London"

At least Valve did Scotland in TF2, makes a change.

Sorry to interrupt this kinda pointless argument, but if you're going to argue that it's not representative if there's more than one kind of accent in that country, you know there is more than one `Scottish` accent, right?
Just checking.

Also, speaking as someone who is related to a lot of cockneys, I don't know what anyone's bothered about- Tracer's cockney is god awful. I tried to look up who the VA is because I have a sneaking suspicion she's American.

 

[inmunitas]

Dude, this happens to pretty much every country that's big enough to have some noticeable diversity. People just go with something iconic, because it's sure to be recognised as something from that country. US? Texas, New York, Las Vegas or LA. I mean, in Overwatch the US got a cowboy. So, yeah. Japan? Tokyo, always Tokyo. (Or Edo, because samurai or ninja.) Or a little closer to your home: Holland is not the same as The Netherlands.

Sorry to interrupt this kinda pointless argument, but if you're going to argue that it's not representative if there's more than one kind of accent in that country, you know there is more than one `Scottish` accent, right?
Just checking.

Also, speaking as someone who is related to a lot of cockneys, I don't know what anyone's bothered about- Tracer's cockney is god awful. I tried to look up who the VA is because I have a sneaking suspicion she's American.

Ah see, as soon as it becomes something that doesn't bother you then it's suddenly a "pointless argument". How many video games take place or feature someone from Scotland, Wales or Ireland? Not many, and what about Holland or the Netherlands for that matter?

 

[Phasmal]

Ah see, as soon as it becomes something that doesn't bother you then it's suddenly a "pointless argument". How many video games take place or feature someone from Scotland, Wales or Ireland? Not many, and what about Holland or the Netherlands for that matter?

So, are you trying to say that unless we can represent every single person ever, we shouldn't be trying?

Ah, so you're trying to overblow it so it looks ridiculous. Well done, I guess?
But still, nah, diversity in games as a conversation isn't going away any time soon.
It is... tooo laaaaaaaaate.

 

[NPC009]

Oh, so now you suddenly care about representation and diversity, inmunitas?

While it would be nice to see games (and entertainment in general) use a greater variety of settings, you can't forget Overwatch is just having fun with international stereotypes. It's not trying to be insulting, it's just going for themes, accents and so on they know people will recognise.

 

[inmunitas]

Ah see, as soon as it becomes something that doesn't bother you then it's suddenly a "pointless argument". How many video games take place or feature someone from Scotland, Wales or Ireland? Not many, and what about Holland or the Netherlands for that matter?

So, are you trying to say that unless we can represent every single person ever, we shouldn't be trying?

Ah, so you're trying to overblow it so it looks ridiculous. Well done, I guess?
But still, nah, diversity in games as a conversation isn't going away any time soon.
It is... tooo laaaaaaaaate.

No, you're the one saying we shouldn't try. You claim that you want diversity in games, but you don't want that much more diversity then there already has been.

 

[Phasmal]

No, you're the one saying we shouldn't try. You claim that you want diversity in games, but you don't want that much more diversity then there already has been.

When did I say that?
Bring on the diversity. All the diversity.

All I said was

1- There's more than one Scottish accent (there is)
2- Tracer's cockney accent is really bad (it is).

 

[Somekindofgold]

They look pretty cool..but the reasons behind Zarya's creation just annoy me too much to like her.

Theres been academic research that shows that Gamers dont care all that much about what characters they play as long as they're good, and that 'playing as a character like you does not engender identification' (actual quote from the paper), so churning out a character just to address people concerned that theres not enough diversity or whatever in the Overwatch cast just rubs me the wrong way.

The fact that they turned around and just made a female Heavy makes it funny as well as annoying.

 

[EternallyBored]

They look pretty cool..but the reasons behind Zarya's creation just annoy me too much to like her.

Theres been academic research that shows that Gamers dont care all that much about what characters they play as long as they're good, and that 'playing as a character like you does not engender identification' (actual quote from the paper), so churning out a character just to address people concerned that theres not enough diversity or whatever in the Overwatch cast just rubs me the wrong way.

The fact that they turned around and just made a female Heavy makes it funny as well as annoying.

There has been ONE paper that bases its thesis on a couple of interviews and a survey. It also fails to present its data in a meaningful manner by throwing up personal anecdotes from the interviews rather than presenting the numerical data from the survey. The paper itself is full of speculation and supposition with little hard data to support it, the more controversial, "video games cause violence" studies had a more thorough methodology than that thing. It does just enough to justify its thesis as a topic to look further in to, it is not yet enough data to draw any concrete conclusion on though, and saying "research shows" is obfuscating the fact that research has "shown" plenty of things that turn out to be false down the line, a handful of interviews and a single survey aren't a conclusion their an introduction to conduct further research.

 

[Somekindofgold]

They look pretty cool..but the reasons behind Zarya's creation just annoy me too much to like her.

Theres been academic research that shows that Gamers dont care all that much about what characters they play as long as they're good, and that 'playing as a character like you does not engender identification' (actual quote from the paper), so churning out a character just to address people concerned that theres not enough diversity or whatever in the Overwatch cast just rubs me the wrong way.

The fact that they turned around and just made a female Heavy makes it funny as well as annoying.

There has been ONE paper that bases its thesis on a couple of interviews and a survey. It also fails to present its data in a meaningful manner by throwing up personal anecdotes from the interviews rather than presenting the numerical data from the survey. The paper itself is full of speculation and supposition with little hard data to support it, the more controversial, "video games cause violence" studies had a more thorough methodology than that thing. It does just enough to justify its thesis as a topic to look further in to, it is not yet enough data to draw any concrete conclusion on though, and saying "research shows" is obfuscating the fact that research has "shown" plenty of things that turn out to be false down the line, a handful of interviews and a single survey aren't a conclusion their an introduction to conduct further research.

I'll happily read the paper that shows evidence that playing as a character you share an identity with engenders more identification than if it was someone you do not share an identity with.

 

[theNater]

You claim that you want diversity in games, but you don't want that much more diversity then there already has been.

You claim they need a British Northerner, but you don't seem interested in helping make that happen. Give us descriptions, share your ideas, give us pictures if you've got 'em. Complain, in detail, about what you want in the game. We're all listening.

 

[Mutant1988]

I'll happily read the paper that shows evidence that playing as a character you share an identity with engenders more identification than if it was someone you do not share an identity with.

The existence of character creators essentially proves that personalization of an experience matters. It's not about putting you in a game, but something you can identify with. Or at least find appealing in any other way.

Is it absolutely necessary? Probably not. Is it appreciated? You can bet your ass it is.

And there most definitely is a merit to be exposed and connect to stories and characters different from yourself. But if everything is alien to you, or even hostile towards who you are, then you don't feel welcome.

Acts like this, to purposefully and explicitly strive for inclusion, is an attempt to immediately address a greater issue, in what little way it's possible. It's not a fix of all issues, it's not even remotely a fix of gender inequality, but it's a welcoming gesture to those that want representation in something as easily fixed as the entertainment medium they enjoy,.

There is not hostility to acts like these and there will not be a permanent exclusion of any other audience just because more different people are included. That entire idea is inane.

Extremist opinions might bellow at the top of their lungs that the "male dominance" needs to be obliterated but that will not happen. There is enough people and games to go around to satisfy all tastes and 50% of humanity will not be marginalized just because we take steps to stop marginalizing the other 50%.

If that happens, well... Who said we should ever stop to affect change? We keep going until everyone is happy. Or happier, at least.

Those motivated by malice and pushing their views with violence are ignored. Or at worst, suppressed and destroyed. Destructive anti-social behaviour benefits no one.

 

[Somekindofgold]

I'll happily read the paper that shows evidence that playing as a character you share an identity with engenders more identification than if it was someone you do not share an identity with.

The existence of character creators essentially proves that personalization of an experience matters. It's not about putting you in a game, but something you can identify with. Or at least find appealing in any other way.

Is it absolutely necessary? Probably not. Is it appreciated? You can bet your ass it is.

Yes but that wasnt the point I was making. The point I was making is that a characters ethnicity, gender etc endears the same amount of identification if they're the same ethnicity, gender etc of the player or not. You can create any personalized character you want, but a kid with red hair and no nose doesnt automatically seek to create a red headed character with no nose.

The fact men play female characters and gamers have no trouble playing lizard and cat people is an example of this.

 

[Mutant1988]

I'll happily read the paper that shows evidence that playing as a character you share an identity with engenders more identification than if it was someone you do not share an identity with.

The existence of character creators essentially proves that personalization of an experience matters. It's not about putting you in a game, but something you can identify with. Or at least find appealing in any other way.

Is it absolutely necessary? Probably not. Is it appreciated? You can bet your ass it is.

Yes but that wasnt the point I was making. The point I was making is that a characters ethnicity, gender etc endears the same amount of identification if they're the same ethnicity, gender etc of the player or not. You can create any personalized character you want, but a kid with red hair and no nose doesnt automatically seek to create a red headed character with no nose.

The fact men play female characters and gamers have no trouble playing lizard and cat people is an example of this.

Well yeah, but it's about increasing the diversity of options. We don't need to put ourselves into the games we play, but seeing ourselves and more different people in our games is beneficial for all of us. The range of protagonists are far too specific and this is a means to address that, to extent the options and ranges of stories told through video games.

Will it work or be particularly well done? Time will tell. I won't really be harmed by this in any way regardless.

But yes, we can relate to characters wholly different than us. But we do relate to them, in some way, or otherwise we wouldn't be interested in their stories. And I don't see why physical likeness should be excluded as a means of identification. There's a whole lot kinds of humans, so why should we settle for video game characters all being the same?

Also, character creators? More of that please. I love that shit.

 

[Somekindofgold]

I'll happily read the paper that shows evidence that playing as a character you share an identity with engenders more identification than if it was someone you do not share an identity with.

The existence of character creators essentially proves that personalization of an experience matters. It's not about putting you in a game, but something you can identify with. Or at least find appealing in any other way.

Is it absolutely necessary? Probably not. Is it appreciated? You can bet your ass it is.

Yes but that wasnt the point I was making. The point I was making is that a characters ethnicity, gender etc endears the same amount of identification if they're the same ethnicity, gender etc of the player or not. You can create any personalized character you want, but a kid with red hair and no nose doesnt automatically seek to create a red headed character with no nose.

The fact men play female characters and gamers have no trouble playing lizard and cat people is an example of this.

Well yeah, but it's about increasing the diversity of options. We don't need to put ourselves into the games we play, but seeing ourselves and more different people in our games is beneficial for all of us. The range of protagonists are far too specific and this is a means to address that, to extent the options and ranges of stories told through video games.

Will it work or be particularly well done? Time will tell. I won't really be harmed by this in any way regardless.

But yes, we can relate to characters wholly different than us. But we do relate to them, in some way, or otherwise we wouldn't be interested in their stories. And I don't see why physical likeness should be excluded as a means of identification. There's a whole lot kinds of humans, so why should we settle for video game characters all being the same?

Also, character creators? More of that please. I love that shit.

I dont disagree with you, but throwing a character into a game because people complained there wasnt enough body diversity, and she just turns out to be tf2 Heavy with different genitals? No, thats annoying, and so is people saying that we must have diversity because not being able to play as people that look like you is alienating.

If Overwatch has good gameplay Zarya wont stop me from playing, but what she represents just annoys me. It also kind of annoys me that her being celebrated as an example of diversity is overshadowing the other character she was announced with. He's like Jan and Zarya is Marsha.

 

[Mutant1988]

I dont disagree with you, but throwing a character into a game because people complained there wasnt enough body diversity, and she just turns out to be tf2 Heavy with different genitals? No, thats annoying, and so is people saying that we must have diversity because not being able to play as people that look like you is alienating.

If Overwatch has good gameplay Zarya wont stop me from playing, but what she represents just annoys me. It also kind of annoys me that her being celebrated as an example of diversity is overshadowing the other character she was announced with. He's like Jan and Zarya is Marsha.

The option is the status quo and a continued lack of representation.

I fail to see how representation, even if as superficial as appearance, hurts anyone.

And no. She was added because the developers explicitly said they wanted diversity and sought to improve that diversity when people asked for more. No one is being strong armed into anything.

And yes, having 90% of all protagonists fall into a handful of appearance and character archetypes is alienating. It does not make games unplayable, but it is alienating to not find anyone like yourself in your entertainment media. And that is something that's easily corrected without causing any kind of lasting harm to anyone. Same reason why people are against change - "It's just a video game - It doesn't matter".

Good, then let's have diversity then, however superficial. Because why not?

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

I asked this in another thread, but...

Is McCree supposed to be a shout out to the arcade light gun game, Mad Dog McCree?

 

[Somekindofgold]

I fail to see how representation, even if as superficial as appearance, hurts anyone.

And no. She was added because the developers explicitly said they wanted diversity and sought to improve that diversity when people asked for more. No one is being strong armed into anything.

And yes, having 90% of all protagonists fall into a handful of appearance and character archetypes is alienating. It does not make games unplayable, but it is alienating to not find anyone like yourself in your entertainment media. And that is something that's easily corrected without causing any kind of lasting harm to anyone. Same reason why people are against change - "It's just a video game - It doesn't matter".

Good, then let's have diversity then, however superficial. Because why not?

Because it leads to laziness, and the last thing this industry is laziness. You wind up in the trap where a character's main, or sometimes only, characteristic is that they're 'x' or 'y'.


When you create a character to address 'We want different bodies' you've already failed, because when developing a character you shouldnt start with 'they're x'. Superficial diversity is almost as bad as no diversity. I'd rather have a few Alyx Vance's or Omids sprinkled around.

And yes, I know this is a game that plays with stereotypes and will probably have little in the way of in depth characterization, but TF2 didnt have a problem with providing depth to their characters, even if it was ridiculous half the time. Maybe over time Blizzard can do the same with their characters and my complaints will have been dealt with.

 

[Mutant1988]

Because it leads to laziness, and the last thing this industry is laziness. You wind up in the trap where a character's main, or sometimes only, characteristic is that they're 'x' or 'y'.


When you create a character to address 'We want different bodies' you've already failed, because when developing a character you shouldnt start with 'they're x'. Superficial diversity is almost as bad as no diversity. I'd rather have a few Alyx Vance's or Omids sprinkled around because at least they're quality characters.

Yeah, I don't interpret this as laziness. If it is, it will be decried by the people that asked for it in the first place and force the developers back to the drawing board.

Change does not happen overnight and mistakes are made on the way. The notion that people just accept things as is, as long as it's even remotely close to what they asked for simply isn't true.

And I disagree that superficial diversity is bad. It depends entirely on the purpose of the product. If the purpose is to create a visually distinct character, then that's plenty enough. If there's a deeper narrative, then you need more effort. This is why fighting games, the most shallow of all games in regards to design, has been able to boast more overall visual diversity than any other genre of video game.

There's room for games that have characters that are just X or Y, as well as characters with a more rounded design.

And no, I disagree that starting a design with "They are X" is faulty. The traits of a character, however superficial, do influence and inform the personality of the character. Few things are exactly as shallow as they first appear. It's perfectly reasonable to write a character form the outset with the sole trait of being a meek man, muscular woman, morbidly obese or gay. It doesn't even have to relate to the story, but it still informs the character and influence the design and ultimately their personality, depth and actions or even the very nature of the story being told.

There's a reason why a lot of established characters are said to write their own stories. Because the attributes ascribed to them over time makes them partly autonomous. Even seemingly shallow attributes matter.

But I can definitely understand the design being criticized for copying attributes straight from other works. That is lazy.