Blizzad reveals new characters for Overwatch

[theNater]

It also kind of annoys me that her being celebrated as an example of diversity is overshadowing the other character she was announced with.

Because it leads to laziness, and the last thing this industry is laziness. You wind up in the trap where a character's main, or sometimes only, characteristic is that they're 'x' or 'y'.


When you create a character to address 'We want different bodies' you've already failed, because when developing a character you shouldnt start with 'they're x'.

You seem a little self-contradictory here. McCree's more a stereotype than Zarya is(he's classic cowboy, she's at least genderflipped), but she's the sign of laziness?

How is 'We want a cowboy' better than 'We want different bodies'? Every character has to start somewhere.

 

[inmunitas]

Because it leads to laziness, and the last thing this industry is laziness. You wind up in the trap where a character's main, or sometimes only, characteristic is that they're 'x' or 'y'.


When you create a character to address 'We want different bodies' you've already failed, because when developing a character you shouldnt start with 'they're x'. Superficial diversity is almost as bad as no diversity. I'd rather have a few Alyx Vance's or Omids sprinkled around because at least they're quality characters.

Yeah, I don't interpret this as laziness. If it is, it will be decried by the people that asked for it in the first place and force the developers back to the drawing board.

Change does not happen overnight and mistakes are made on the way. The notion that people just accept things as is, as long as it's even remotely close to what they asked for simply isn't true.

And I disagree that superficial diversity is bad. It depends entirely on the purpose of the product. If the purpose is to create a visually distinct character, then that's plenty enough. If there's a deeper narrative, then you need more effort. This is why fighting games, the most shallow of all games in regards to design, has been able to boast more overall visual diversity than any other genre of video game.

There's room for games that have characters that are just X or Y, as well as characters with a more rounded design.

And no, I disagree that starting a design with "They are X" is faulty. The traits of a character, however superficial, do influence and inform the personality of the character. Few things are exactly as shallow as they first appear. It's perfectly reasonable to write a character form the outset with the sole trait of being a meek man, muscular woman, morbidly obese or gay. It doesn't even have to relate to the story, but it still informs the character and influence the design and ultimately their personality, depth and actions or even the very nature of the story being told.

There's a reason why a lot of established characters are said to write their own stories. Because the attributes ascribed to them over time makes them partly autonomous. Even seemingly shallow attributes matter.

But I can definitely understand the design being criticized for copying attributes straight from other works. That is lazy.

What makes you think this isn't all going to be forgotten about again in 5-10 years? Are there any actual changes being made?

 

[Mutant1988]

What makes you think this isn't all going to be forgotten about again in 5-10 years? Are there any actual changes being made?

Outside of video games there are. Video games isn't the only part in the debate. But it's rather distressing that such a simple matter as "trying" to add diversity to video games is this strongly opposed.

The existence of non-standard characters in video games will not fix gender, race, sexual preference or life style issues. But it doesn't hurt. At least I don't see how it does.

Does it make me feel good about myself to give people representation? Not really. But I bet a lot of people feel more appreciated by it, and I think that's reason enough to do it. And to do it well. But just doing it, at all, is a good start.

The fact that this discussion and others like it is being had at all is indicative of a desire towards change. And not only in regards to video games.

For some additional context to explain my more esoteric arguments in regards to character design - I am trying to improve my drawing skills, with one of my goals being to design a fighting game cast and turn it all into some sort of game. As such, I'm rather heavily invested in design, diversity and how to create unique attributes both visually (Especially visually) and narratively (Because fighting games are less bound to conventions of story telling).

I know what I'm talking about, even if I by no means know all there is to know about it.

 

[inmunitas]

What makes you think this isn't all going to be forgotten about again in 5-10 years? Are there any actual changes being made?

Outside of video games there are. Video games isn't the only part in the debate. But it's rather distressing that such a simple matter as "trying" to add diversity to video games is this strongly opposed.

The existence of non-standard characters in video games will not fix gender, race, sexual preference or life style issues. But it doesn't hurt. At least I don't see how it does.

Does it make me feel good about myself to give people representation? Not really. But I bet a lot of people feel more appreciated by it, and I think that's reason enough to do it. And to do it well. But just doing it, at all, is a good start.

The fact that this discussion and others like it is being had at all is indicative of a desire towards change. And not only in regards to video games.

For some additional context to explain my more esoteric arguments in regards to character design - I am trying to improve my drawing skills, with one of my goals being to design a fighting game cast and turn it all into some sort of game. As such, I'm rather heavily invested in design, diversity and how to create unique attributes both visually (Especially visually) and narratively (Because fighting games are less bound to conventions of story telling).

I know what I'm talking about, even if I by no means know all there is to know about it.

Well, where is the market research? Where's the plan of action? Where are the statistics that show this "status quo" you keep referring to?

 

[Mutant1988]

Well, where is the market research? Where's the plan of action? Where are the statistics that show this "status quo" you keep referring to?

The masses of hostile people like you objecting to any changes by decrying them as being politically motivated or completely unnecessary?

The status quo is to not make any changes of any kind, which is what people like you insist on. You insist on things just happening on their own, but that has never ever accomplished anything whatsoever in any context, except to nurture resentment to a breaking point.

The market plan is for developers to do what they want with the game for the audience they want money from. Recognizing more than one audiences is making progress.

The ultimate plan of action is to make the professional part of the industry (Or rather, all of them) more welcoming to diversity. Most notably, get more women making games and not being harassed out of the public light in doing so. That is a factual issue, whether you want to admit it or not. The violence against opposing views and affirmative actions of ANY kind needs to stop. The purpose is not to replace male dominance with the exact opposite. It's to address the actual discrepancies in professional fields and in how society treats women and minorities.

The industry has changed over the years and that's because people have been trying to change it. It didn't happen on it's own. To claim such a thing is to rob creators of their agency and accomplishments.

 

[inmunitas]

Well, where is the market research? Where's the plan of action? Where are the statistics that show this "status quo" you keep referring to?

The masses of hostile people like you objecting to any changes by decrying them as being politically motivated or completely unnecessary?

The status quo is to not make any changes of any kind, which is what people like you insist on. You insist on things just happening on their own, but that has never ever accomplished anything whatsoever in any context, except to nurture resentment to a breaking point.

The market plan is for developers to do what they want with the game for the audience they want money from. Recognizing more than one audiences is making progress.

The ultimate plan of action is to make the professional part of the industry (Or rather, all of them) more welcoming to diversity. Most notably, get more women making games and not being harassed out of the public light in doing so. That is a factual issue, whether you want to admit it or not. The violence against opposing views and affirmative actions of ANY kind needs to stop. The purpose is not to replace male dominance with the exact opposite. It's to address the actual discrepancies in professional fields and in how society treats women and minorities.

The industry has changed over the years and that's because people have been trying to change it. It didn't happen on it's own. To claim such a thing is to rob creators of their agency and accomplishments.

What's with the strawman and fallacious accusations? All I asked was to see the data that backs up your claims, why is that so hard?

 

[Mutant1988]

Well, where is the market research? Where's the plan of action? Where are the statistics that show this "status quo" you keep referring to?

The masses of hostile people like you objecting to any changes by decrying them as being politically motivated or completely unnecessary?

The status quo is to not make any changes of any kind, which is what people like you insist on. You insist on things just happening on their own, but that has never ever accomplished anything whatsoever in any context, except to nurture resentment to a breaking point.

The market plan is for developers to do what they want with the game for the audience they want money from. Recognizing more than one audiences is making progress.

The ultimate plan of action is to make the professional part of the industry (Or rather, all of them) more welcoming to diversity. Most notably, get more women making games and not being harassed out of the public light in doing so. That is a factual issue, whether you want to admit it or not. The violence against opposing views and affirmative actions of ANY kind needs to stop. The purpose is not to replace male dominance with the exact opposite. It's to address the actual discrepancies in professional fields and in how society treats women and minorities.

The industry has changed over the years and that's because people have been trying to change it. It didn't happen on it's own. To claim such a thing is to rob creators of their agency and accomplishments.

What's with the strawman and fallacious accusations? All I asked was to see the data that backs up your claims, why is that so hard?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#Roles_of_women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#Players.27_preferences

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/06/rhianna-pratchetts-1reasontobe/

There was also a wonderful selection of quotes from women active in the industry but for the life of me I can't find that article now.

Feel free to back up your claim that attempts to add diversity such as this one has zero positive effect and is forgotten within 5 to 10 years.

I mean, while we are comparing notes and all.

I don't subscribe to the logic of Anita Sarkeesian for the record. I don't support anyone that suffers from equally severe confirmation bias. You and her, I put in the same folder.

 

[inmunitas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#Roles_of_women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_representation_in_video_games#Players.27_preferences

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/05/06/rhianna-pratchetts-1reasontobe/

There was also a wonderful selection of quotes from women active in the industry but for the life of me I can't find that article now.

Feel free to back up your claim that attempts to add diversity such as this one has zero positive effect and is forgotten within 5 to 10 years.

I mean, while we are comparing notes and all.

I don't subscribe to the logic of Anita Sarkeesian for the record. I don't support anyone that suffers from equally severe confirmation bias. You and her, I put in the same folder.

No, Wikipedia has no academic value. Where is the proper scientific research?

 

[Mutant1988]

No, Wikipedia has no academic value. Where is the proper scientific research?

Try clicking those little numbers at the end of sentences. Those are references. You know, "Scientific research" as you put it. Or at least something concrete for you to examine and discredit based on the actual methodology presented.

I'll wait until you're done doing so.

 

[inmunitas]

No, Wikipedia has no academic value. Where is the proper scientific research?

Try clicking those little numbers at the end of sentences. Those are references. You know, "Scientific research" as you put it. Or at least something concrete for you to examine and discredit based on the actual methodology presented.

I'll wait until you're done doing so.

I already looked. They just link to gaming press sites, YouTube videos, tumblr blogs and gender studies papers, none of which have any scientific value.

 

[Mutant1988]

No, Wikipedia has no academic value. Where is the proper scientific research?

Try clicking those little numbers at the end of sentences. Those are references. You know, "Scientific research" as you put it. Or at least something concrete for you to examine and discredit based on the actual methodology presented.

I'll wait until you're done doing so.

I already looked. They just link to gaming press sites, YouTube videos, tumblr blogs and gender studies papers, none of which have any scientific value.

So what study do you have to disprove my hypothesis then? Also, do tell me in what way the methodology of any studies in those sources are flawed. You did look at studies cited, right and not just the title of the articles they were originally featured in? Or at least point out the most severe flaws of their actual argumentations, rather than the intent by which they present it.

http://www.criticalmediaproject.org/about/key-concepts/

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1323&context=edissertations

As for determining the a concrete positive effect of inclusiveness efforts - How are you supposed to determine such a thing when efforts such as this one have barely just begun to happen?

 

[inmunitas]

What's with the strawman and fallacious accusations? All I asked was to see the data that backs up your claims, why is that so hard?

Speaking of backing up claims, you still haven't done that and seemed to have missed my post again. I'll quote it for you again so you don't have to go back and can just address it here.

You're putting in a Southerner and claiming they represent all of Britain, that is discrimination.

Could you point me to where I claimed that?

And then could you explain how it's discrimination rather than just saying it is?

Please answer the questions. It's beginning to look like you can't and are avoiding them deliberately because of that.

Because there is a bias, southerners have been more often represented in the media than the rest of the UK. It was only a few years ago that the BBC put in legislation to change that.

 

[Aeshi]

I'm not sure they could, really. Many depictions of centaurs in mythology feature the creature's human components appearing almost elven like.

I notice you conveniently "forgot" about the half-deer part. Show me ONE (just one!) other universe that has tried a half-deer centaur, let alone one where the other half is elven.

And how about the other heroes? Am I meant to believe it's just coincidence Valve came up with the "groundbreaking" idea of Alchemist being a tiny smart guy riding atop a big dumb brute all by themselves? That they "just stumbled" upon the idea for an Oriental-themed Brewer whose ultimate attack is to split into three copies of themself? What about Morphling, who is (again) a near-literal copy-paste(no changes or anything.)

 

[inmunitas]

Because there is a bias, southerners have been more often represented in the media than the rest of the UK. It was only a few years ago that the BBC put in legislation to change that.

Still haven't answered my questions. You wanted him to back up his, and asked "why is that so hard", yet here you are doing the exact same thing (that you were doing well before him too).

Answer my questions please. Don't answer a question I haven't asked and answer the questions I actually asked.

What was the question you were actually asking?

 

[Vigormortis]

I notice you conveniently "forgot" about the half-deer part. Show me ONE (just one!) other universe that has tried a half-deer centaur, let alone one where the other half is elven.

You're joking, right?

There are depictions of a half-human half-deer creature in Native American lore. There are ancient Greek variants that depict deer-like Centaurs or dryads. There's even the Huay Chivo from Mayan lore, though most depictions are more beast like than fair-haired human. They even pop up quite frequently in modern fiction and literature.

Blizzard didn't, by any stretch, come up with the idea of a a half-deer half-human creature.

And how about the other heroes? Am I meant to believe it's just coincidence Valve came up with the "groundbreaking" idea of Alchemist being a tiny smart guy riding atop a big dumb brute all by themselves? That they "just stumbled" upon the idea for an Oriental-themed Brewer whose ultimate attack is to split into three copies of themself? What about Morphling, who is (again) a near-literal copy-paste(no changes or anything.)

I'm not sure how many times I have to reiterate this, but let's try this again:

I am not defending Valve's use of those characters and designs.

All I've been doing, all along, is pointing out that Blizzard is just as guilty of copying other designs for their own world building. I'm sorry if your adoration of Blizzard blinds you to this fact or makes you so uncomfortable as to ignore the similarities, but I see it from both companies.

And with that, I think I'm done. I've no interest in having to repeat myself over the same points just because you want to attack a position I'm not taking. Maybe you can find someone in this thread who is defending Valve's use of the designs to argue with, but that person is not me.

Good day to you.

 

[inmunitas]

What was the question you were actually asking?

You're putting in a Southerner and claiming they represent all of Britain, that is discrimination.

Could you point me to where I claimed that?

And then could you explain how it's discrimination rather than just saying it is?

There you go. About the fourth time I've linked that.

Cockney is objectively British.

 

[Mutant1988]

What was the question you were actually asking?

You're putting in a Southerner and claiming they represent all of Britain, that is discrimination.

Could you point me to where I claimed that?

And then could you explain how it's discrimination rather than just saying it is?

There you go. About the fourth time I've linked that.

Cockney is objectively British.

Because it is, being an accent originating from London, the capital of the former British Empire.

You do know what objectively means, right?

Because there is a bias, southerners have been more often represented in the media than the rest of the UK. It was only a few years ago that the BBC put in legislation to change that.

And you support that legislation? If so, that's hilariously hypocritical of you.

It's not a matter of inclusiveness and representation when it applies to regional accents?