Blizzard Challenges Valve Over DOTA Trademark.

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

Blizard didn't make DOTA, so theirfore, it isn't their's to reap.

As long as valve has permission from it's creaters, it should technecally their's.

 

[Cavan]

Read your TOA/EULA. Mods are possible because anything created using a specific game engine falls under the domination of the copyright holder of that engine. You are basically given permission to make a mod for a game, but you can not profit from it, nor try to financially claim it as your own as the code for it derives from the game engine you created it for.

Forgive me if I am wrong, but the actual intellectual content of that would be yours..what you're talking about is profiting via the use of the engine it's built in..and since DOTA2 is built totally on the ground up i'm not sure I see why it's applicable. They don't own the intellectual property, just the means via it was originally delivered.

 

[Vigormortis]

I think the thing we need to keep in mind here, and it's something we're ALL forgetting, is that the people who have a say in who can own the trademark on the name are the creators of the mod.

At present, both Icefrog and Eul are working at Valve. Therefore, Valve has more of a right to trademark the name than Blizzard-Activision has to request Valve be denied.

And, seeing as ALL of the assets being used in Dota 2 were created from the ground up and NOT copied or ported from Warcraft 3, Blizzard's claims are baseless.

See here: http://www.1up.com/previews/dota-2-valve-fanboys-developers
(not a website plug)

A lot of the other creators of the mod have gone against Valves trademark, even going as far as creating DotA-Allstars, LLC in their effect to keep it a community-owned product. And for more information about it, in 2008, Feak and Mescon each assigned all of their rights in and to the DotA
Mods and the DotA-Allstars Website to "DotA-Allstars, LLC." In 2010, DotA-Allstars,
9 LLC was purchased by Riot Games, Inc. In 2011, Riot transferred DotA-Allstars, LLC to
Blizzard.

So what you're saying is, the people who didn't create the mod and whom had the least amount of time and effort devoted to the game, created a website, sold that site to Riot, who then turned around and sold it to Blizzard. All in the name of keeping Valve from taking the name Dota?

Oh ironic hypocrisy. They were so dead set against one company trade-marking the name, so they tried to give it to another company. Too rich.

Again, Eul and Icefrog, the man who created DOTA and the man who spent the most time maintaining the mod (and still does), respectively, should have the most say in what does and doesn't happen to the DOTA 'brand'. Since they're working at Valve, and have obviously given Gaben the okay, that means Valve has every right to try to trademark it.

Blizzard has nothing but greedy intentions in all of this. There's no altruism in their intentions. The same can be said for those at Riot who are so "dead set against" Valve trademarking the name. And by extension, against Eul and Icefrog laying claim to the mod.

 

[linwolf]

I think the thing we need to keep in mind here, and it's something we're ALL forgetting, is that the people who have a say in who can own the trademark on the name are the creators of the mod.

At present, both Icefrog and Eul are working at Valve. Therefore, Valve has more of a right to trademark the name than Blizzard-Activision has to request Valve be denied.

And, seeing as ALL of the assets being used in Dota 2 were created from the ground up and NOT copied or ported from Warcraft 3, Blizzard's claims are baseless.

See here: http://www.1up.com/previews/dota-2-valve-fanboys-developers
(not a website plug)

A lot of the other creators of the mod have gone against Valves trademark, even going as far as creating DotA-Allstars, LLC in their effect to keep it a community-owned product. And for more information about it, in 2008, Feak and Mescon each assigned all of their rights in and to the DotA
Mods and the DotA-Allstars Website to "DotA-Allstars, LLC." In 2010, DotA-Allstars,
9 LLC was purchased by Riot Games, Inc. In 2011, Riot transferred DotA-Allstars, LLC to
Blizzard.

So what you're saying is, the people who didn't create the mod and whom had the least amount of time and effort devoted to the game, created a website, sold that site to Riot, who then turned around and sold it to Blizzard. All in the name of keeping Valve from taking the name Dota?

Oh ironic hypocrisy. They were so dead set against one company trade-marking the name, so they tried to give it to another company. Too rich.

Again, Eul and Icefrog, the man who created DOTA and the man who spent the most time maintaining the mod (and still does), respectively, should have the most say in what does and doesn't happen to the DOTA 'brand'. Since they're working at Valve, and have obviously given Gaben the okay, that means Valve has every right to try to trademark it.

Blizzard has nothing but greedy intentions in all of this. There's no altruism in their intentions. The same can be said for those at Riot who are so "dead set against" Valve trademarking the name. And by extension, against Eul and Icefrog laying claim to the mod.

I am a firm believer in not withholding information just because it can all be used against my side, and I have no doubt that both Riot and Blizzard have personal interest in case. But for me a large part of the DotA-Allstars, LLC was that they spend over two years figthing Valve before they gave it over to people with more money to continue the case. Keep in mind that Blizzard have no interest in the name, it would and have fit them better having the community have it and getting some extra brand recognition out of it.
And you keep bringing Blizzards greed up in this, I got to say I don't think Valve only is during this out off the goodness of their heart.

Anyway I don't see must reason to continue as our difference on the subject stem from different staring position.
You see if I get it right that since Valve have two of the mod creator and on top of the the does with the biggest part in the mod and is making a new game that they should be able to trademark the name.
And me not so must against your logic, as afraid this will come back and bite modding community in the ass, by making developer less inclined to support modding and therefore would prefer to see Blizzard win

 

[Dendio]

Blizz doesnt want to own the IP. They are fighting to keep it open source. Valve wants to trademark it.

 

[Dendio]

Blizard didn't make DOTA, so theirfore, it isn't their's to reap.

As long as valve has permission from it's creaters, it should technecally their's.

Most of the creators want it to remain open source. Only one of them wants it to go to valve

 

[ResonanceGames]

Read your TOA/EULA. Mods are possible because anything created using a specific game engine falls under the domination of the copyright holder of that engine.

We don't know that. It has never been tested in court, it's just something that Blizzard asserted. EULAS and TOSes are not necessarily binding agreements, so it doesn't really matter what they say until a judge puts the hammer down on one side or the other.

 

[WeAreStevo]

I think that this entire situation is going to be a difficult one to sort out.

On one hand, Blizzard has a valid point, because without WCIII, DoTA may not have been created (essentially. It was a mod, but based of an IP of blizzards using everything from that game as a basis).

However, if the creators of the DoTA mod now work for Valve, then I can see how they could make essentially the same claim (i.e. if they never made the mod then Blizzard wouldn't be able to make their own variation of it) and therefore Valve should be allowed to use the name.

Overall, I'm actually going to have to side with Blizzard on this, because the FIRST thing Valve should have done is had Blizzards consent to do this. Regardless of who made the mod, it was made with Blizzards hard work. I hope this gets sorted out without much issue.

 

[Vigormortis]

I am a firm believer in not withholding information just because it can all be used against my side, and I have no doubt that both Riot and Blizzard have personal interest in case. But for me a large part of the DotA-Allstars, LLC was that they spend over two years figthing Valve before they gave it over to people with more money to continue the case. Keep in mind that Blizzard have no interest in the name, it would and have fit them better having the community have it and getting some extra brand recognition out of it.
And you keep bringing Blizzards greed up in this, I got to say I don't think Valve only is during this out off the goodness of their heart.

Anyway I don't see must reason to continue as our difference on the subject stem from different staring position.
You see if I get it right that since Valve have two of the mod creator and on top of the the does with the biggest part in the mod and is making a new game that they should be able to trademark the name.
And me not so must against your logic, as afraid this will come back and bite modding community in the ass, by making developer less inclined to support modding and therefore would prefer to see Blizzard win

I believe you and I are in agreement more then we realize. Believe it or not, my friend, I understand your position. And believe me, I'm not saying Valve isn't in this because they see some way of profiting from it. They are a business, after all. As is Blizzard.

However, the difference is, Blizzard isn't doing this out of some altruistic move for the benefit of the community. They want to bank on the DOTA name as much as Valve does. So the idea that Valve, Icefrog, and Eul want to trademark the name doesn't sit well with them because, if Valve and company do, Blizzard can't exploit it for their own gain.

I foresee Blizzard winning this case as the thing that will "come back to bite the modding community in the ass". If Blizzard wins, it sets a dangerous precedent in that modders do NOT own the rights to their own creations and that the company who owns the game the mod(s) were made for are the ones who do. This would spell disaster for the modding community at large.

Also, if there's one thing we need not worry about, it's Valve not supporting the modding community. They are one of the few companies still operating that openly supports modding as a whole. I mean, hell, they just released the Steam Workshop for goodness sake.

Look at it this way. With Dota 2, you'll not only see community mods and variations made for it, but you'll see Valve support them. With Blizzard DOTA, you won't see jack unless Blizzard approves of it and takes ownership of it.

 

[Vigormortis]

Blizard didn't make DOTA, so theirfore, it isn't their's to reap.

As long as valve has permission from it's creaters, it should technecally their's.

Most of the creators want it to remain open source. Only one of them wants it to go to valve

Actually, two of them do. The two most important ones, in fact. Eul and Icefrog are both working on Dota 2 at Valve. And seeing as Eul created DOTA and Icefrog is the one who devoted the most time and effort into maintaining it after others abandoned it, I'd say they have the most say.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Blizz doesnt want to own the IP. They are fighting to keep it open source. Valve wants to trademark it.

Except they do want to control it. Blizzard has every reason to.

I know that Blizzard sees the money in this: I wonder how many copies of Warcraft 3 and The Frozen Throne they sold because of DotA alone. Probably quite a few.
Blizzard is no White Knight here to protect trademarks for the sake of the community; they're here to take control of it purely for their sake, exactly as Valve wants to.
By challenging it, and claiming it as beneficiary on behalf of the MOBA community, Blizzard finds themselves a windfall of good PR; even if it's a total lie.

There is no great ethical debate here; merely a legal one.
The motivation for either side is strictly business.

 

[Freechoice]

First, if you're argument is on "...the creative sterility of Valve...", then why are you in this thread? That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Though, I fail to see how they aren't 'creative' if the people that WORK there are the ones who thought up the mods and ideas that led to the games we now have. That's like saying a talented musician, who's made many popular albums, is no longer talented because he's now putting out albums through a different label. It's just nonsense.

Second, Blizzard had plenty to gain from trademarking DOTA themselves. They just didn't want to put the time, effort, or money into the process because they thought they already 'owned' it. Seeing as it was only a Warcraft 3 mod. Now that it's not, they stand to lose their cash cow.

And the answer is most definitely yes. The only reason Blizzard is making Blizzard DOTA is to cash in on the MOBA trend.

Once again, people can't seem to grasp the difference between direct profit from product sale and indirect profit from brand association. Which is what this whole thing is about.

Non-innovative? I'm not even going to get into this one. Firstly, because it's way off topic and secondly because, more often then not, the rest of industry is playing catch-up to Valve. (see: Yahtzee in the Resistance 3 review)

And no, they aren't one of the "big boys". Profit margins do NOT a big company make. They are still comprised of only one division and less than three hundred employees total. Compare this to EA, Activision, or Ubisofts publishing divisions alone.

When Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs started selling computers as a 'company', they made billions in a matter of hours. Yet, their 'company' was comprised of...two people. By your logic, that made them "one of the big boys". Seems a stretch to me.

I bring up the creative sterility of Valve because of that guy bitching about how it's hypocritical for Blizzard to bring this to court just because they ripped off Warhammer. Whoop-dee-fucking-doo. They're uncreative fucks as well. That's a moot point brought up without any kind of logic behind it, just emotional irrational. Most of the counterargument stems from that. And cool, you quoted Yahtzee as if he still has relevance. Sure, he made a bunch of comparisons with Half Life 2, but the gameplay mechanics were also present in every shooter pre-Halo. The only things that are similar enough are the story elements which I honestly couldn't give a flying shit about.

Can you explain to me how Blizzard plans to cash in on a MOBA when their own is a mod for Starcraft 2? Do you expect them to sell more units of a large RTS just for the DotA it comes with? Seriously, what do they have to gain from it?

And yes, they are one of the big boys. They can take a major loss without being completely fucked over. And when you bring up brand association, you made me laugh. Why do you think Valve wanted the name DotA 2 as opposed to having the goddamn respect for the community and naming it something else like every other MOBA?

 

[Snotnarok]

What kind of claim can Blizzard have on DoTA when it was a fan mod nothing official.

 

[FoolKiller]

Havent offended, things just sound angry over the net. I was just making the point. The internet analogy was perhaps ill conceived but the Java one was right on the money. Warcraft 3 was just a script that DOTA was written in. It was a very elaborate and specific script, but its just a platform. The actual Warcraft 3 game plays nothing like DOTA.

Finally. This is how I see it. They used the Warcraft III engine and made a great game. Valve, doing what they do best, decided to reward that community and pay them to make the game they envisioned. They used Valve resources, the hired team's ideas (including hiring the Warcraft III music guy) and so forth.

By providing the community with modding tools, Blizzard gave them the license to generate content through the use the "Warcraft III engine". Valve came in and saw talent and said "We see what you've done with these limitations. Here is money, people, advertising, and the Source engine at your disposal. Make your game a reality"

The DoTA IP belongs to the modding community if anything, and not to Blizzard. Now whether or not a court will agree to it is another matter altogether.

 

[FoolKiller]

Read your TOA/EULA. Mods are possible because anything created using a specific game engine falls under the domination of the copyright holder of that engine.

Yes. The mod itself does. The term DoTA did not. That is where it becomes murky. Valve does not want the original game. They lay claim to, and in my opinion rightfully, to the term DoTA.

Blizzard is just pissed because their 7 year windfall of people buy a game to play a user created mod is ending.

Whether Blizzard wins is another matter altogether.

 

[FoolKiller]

Why do you think Valve wanted the name DotA 2 as opposed to having the goddamn respect for the community and naming it something else like every other MOBA?

This is simple. Because the people that made DotA also made DotA 2. It was their name to begin with. You mention respect. How about respecting the creators of DotA by letting them keep the name they came up with and letting them earn the money they deserve.

 

[samsonguy920]

Read your TOA/EULA. Mods are possible because anything created using a specific game engine falls under the domination of the copyright holder of that engine.

Yes. The mod itself does. The term DoTA did not. That is where it becomes murky. Valve does not want the original game. They lay claim to, and in my opinion rightfully, to the term DoTA.

Blizzard is just pissed because their 7 year windfall of people buy a game to play a user created mod is ending.

Whether Blizzard wins is another matter altogether.

Considering they don't give a monkey's fart about mods anymore since they won't be possible for Diablo III, and most likely the other two chapters of Starcraft II, Blizzard should just let this one go. It won't stop people from playing DOTA off of WC3, nor is Blizzard showing any signs of actually doing anything with the concept on their own.
Now that I really think about it, to heck with Blizz. They had their chance and now Valve has a real opportunity to make something of it. The trouble is now it is going to be stuck in legal molasses for years.
Addendum:

Why do you think Valve wanted the name DotA 2 as opposed to having the goddamn respect for the community and naming it something else like every other MOBA?

This is simple. Because the people that made DotA also made DotA 2. It was their name to begin with. You mention respect. How about respecting the creators of DotA by letting them keep the name they came up with and letting them earn the money they deserve.

I was wondering about that. It is true they can run with the game concept, however Blizzard does have the position to hold claim to the name. But as I stated above, Blizzard should just let it go. They aren't going to do their own DOTA 2, nor are they going to make any other game to allow for that sort of mod again. It's just ridiculous to cling onto this.

 

[shintakie10]

...you do realise that if Valve win this it will ostensibly set the precedent that modders actually have some ownership over the mods they create, right? Because one of the original creators of DOTA, Iceyfrog, is now working for Valve on this very game.

Whereas if they lose it would mean that even if you come up with a completely new game, if you happened to implement it in say TF2 then any sequel to that game would be trading off Valve's name and would thus breach trademark because the original mod was "associated with TF2, a Valve game".

Lets get rid of any inherent bias as to who loves Bliz/Valev more. Imagine if you made a really awesome mod, that everybody loved and then six years later a big game studio/publisher comes up to you and says "Hey that mod you made was really good, would you like to come with us and make it into a fully fledged game?". Then the owners of the game you modded start suing your employer saying they're breaching trademark for making your mod. Would you, as the modder, feel that the owners of the game you modded were looking out for your best interests? I wouldn't.

So...ummm. Yeah. You're wrong. It'd be one thing if the actual creator was the one who was trademarkin the name. He isn't. The company that he is a part of is tryin to trademark the name. If anythin, if Valve wins it'll set the precedent that modders don't own their work in any way shape or form because their work was trademarked without a legal transfer of the name away from them.

Really though, anyone not on the side of Blizzard here just has to be lettin their hate of Activision blind them to whats goin on. Let's take the most extreme point of view here and say that both companies aren't doin this for any other reason than to get their money grubbin mitts on the DOTA name. Which of the two companies is the worst here? The one who wants to be the only one who can use the name and will be able to threaten legal action on anyone who uses the name (Valve) or the company that wants the name to stay free of trademarks (Blizzard). No matter what happens, if Blizzard wins we stay at the same point we were before. Dota remains a free name that anyone and everyone can use.

This is Blizzards case to win, plain and simple. I personally believe the reason they want the name to remain untrademarked is because they are a) makin a blizzard dota for starcraft, and b) Blizzard has historically been incredibly close with its modding community and is one of the friendliest to them.

The second point is why I find this whole thing saddening really. Valve has the same reputation as bein incredibly close and friendly with its moddin community and then it went and pulled this dick move. For shame Valve.

 

[-KC-]

Sounds like corporate sour grapes from Blizzard.

They dropped the ball and that boat sailed a long time ago, Blizzard have absolutely no right to the name DOTA as it isn't their creation. Things could have been different if they had previously given a damn and listened to fans, but that's how it goes... now they are attempting to cash in on Valve's rightful success.

Doesn't matter since DotA was made using Blizzard material.


/Thread.

 

[-KC-]

Dota 2 IS NOT built on the WC3 engine, and if they think the interface and mechanics are similar, they may want to file complaints for every other MOBA that has come out in recent years too. Same with the Characters, spells, art...you name it. They've been very careful to change all of that in dota 2. You can't claim copyright or trademark on "Red guy with an axe" or "Sorceress that likes fire". Likewise, you fucking can't claim copyright/trademark on something as stupid as "Ancients" just because it's a small feature in your lore.

But original DotA is. Everything in that mod is provided through Blizzard game War3 RoC and TFT.
Every hero/champion and unit/minion is part of the Warcraft III, even "turrets" lol. Doesn't matter if fans made DotA or w/e, the fact is that w/o Blizzard there would be no DotA in the first place nor any of the todays MOBA games.

No War3 = no DotA = no MOBA

Get the picture ?

This vagues more on moral side but I support it.