Blizzard Challenges Valve Over DOTA Trademark.

[Vigormortis]

I've been playing the the Dota beta, and I'm going to clear this up:

DOTA 2 contains NO material Blizzard could conceivably claim as their IP. All character bios, names, descriptions, abilities, locations, etc. etc. have been completely rebuilt from the ground up to reflect the IP Icefrog created within his allstars version of DoTA.

Characters based upon Blizzard IP (leoric the skeleton king or the nerubian weaver, for example) have been re-named and redesigned completely.


The issue is brand recognition, not the actual content itself.

Personally, I don't think Blizzard should be suing over fan-created content. That just seems... underhanded.


ALSO Blizzard's claim seems to hinge on the assumption that they own the word "ancients" and that it cannot possibly be taken to mean anything but the characters within their warcraft IP.

Exactly. That's the thing that's been getting lost in the controversy. This whole thing, despite Blizzards rather obvious underhanded tactics and fear of not being able to bank on the name, is about Blizzards supposed 'fear' of brand confusion. They fear that when people see Dota 2, they'll 'assume' it's a Blizzard product. Ergo, they're implying that Valve is attempting to trademark the name Dota to bank on the brand recognition of Blizzard.

As I've said, though, Blizzard doesn't own Dota, or anything relating to it. Their 'brand recognition' worries are purely implied, baseless, and at best tenuous. They are making the immense assumption that Dota is solely associated with Warcraft and that, if Valve were to trademark the name, Blizzard would suffer 'damages' due to this brand confusion.

Again, it's all implied bullshit. All of it being used to hide their real 'fear'. That of losing their free money maker.

 

[girzwald]

I'm surprised it's taken them this long.

I think Valve are in the wrong this time. DOTA is a Warcraft mod, and has no link to anything Valve has ever originated. If anyone has a claim on the name it's Blizzard.

It is, but it isnt. It was using base WC3 models and mechanics. But had been HEAVILY modified and the idea and concept of the map itself was not blizzards.

 

[girzwald]

snip

But the thing is that Blizzard isn't trying to take control over DotA, they just don't want Valve to have exclusive rights to it, and Icefrog wasn't the original creator so even though he have made it was it is today. I do not feel it give him it sole right to the name either.

To put it simply, Blizzard is trying, and in my eyes failing, to play the "sympathetic to the community" card while they, in fact, would probably be trying to trademark the name themselves if Valve hadn't beaten them to it.

The fact that they first move on it now shows that they didn't feel they should take the trademark from the creators but will only protect it from others getting taking it.

Let Valve make DotA 2, let them call it DOTA 2, just don't give the trademark to make them the only ones that can use the name.

I can all but guarantee you that Blizzard will try to take over the name if they win this case. Of course they aren't laying claim to it with this particular case, but that's only because...well..."one problem at a time". First they keep Valve from trademarking it, then they swoop in and trademark it themselves.

This whole thing is simple to understand. Blizzard, for years, was banking off of the work and success of the modders making Dota. They thought, since it was a Warcraft 3 mod, they could keep profiting off of it without having to actively spend time and money hiring or licensing the property for their own internal use. I.E. They were lazy and complacent.

Then, along comes Valve, who then hires the guy who, arguably, put the most time and effort into the mod. They give him the tools and assets needed to make the game as he truly intended. Thus, Dota 2 is born.

Suddenly, Acti-Blizz realizes it's dropped the ball. They're going to lose one of their 'cash cows'. They had every opportunity to make Dota their own. They could have done more to support it. Helped fund it. Hired the creators. What have you. But they didn't. They were content to just sit back and bask in the influx of cash the modders were freely providing them.

Now, they're sore over this realization. They don't want to lose that money maker. So what do they do? They hastily slap together their own "dota" game, in the form of a Starcraft 2 mod, and then start what I'm sure is going to be a lengthy smear campaign against Valve. Kicked off by this, and let's face it here, frivolous trademarking case.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not defending Valve. They could very easily change the name. And honestly, part of me thinks they should as I believe the name, or rather the acronym, should stay with the community. However, I have to call Blizzard out on this bullshit. There's no altruism in play here. It's all corporate shenanigans.

I don't see how the "blizzard would lose money" argument holds up. How much money do you really think blizzard made off of dota? Id wager not that many people went out and bought a copy of WC3 and TFT because of dota. They weren't making any money off any subs since battlenet was free. Maybe they might have realized they made a mistake (although I don't think so because I always thought dota was an unbalanced piece of crap) in not hiring the guy cause they thought he could have been a creative asset. But them not making money or losing money. Not so much.

 

[Vigormortis]

I don't see how the "blizzard would lose money" argument holds up. How much money do you really think blizzard made off of dota? Id wager not that many people went out and bought a copy of WC3 and TFT because of dota. They weren't making any money off any subs since battlenet was free. Maybe they might have realized they made a mistake (although I don't think so because I always thought dota was an unbalanced piece of crap) in not hiring the guy cause they thought he could have been a creative asset. But them not making money or losing money. Not so much.

Actually, quite a lot of people only bought Warcraft 3 because of DOTA. In fact, I personally know a good number of people that did exactly that.

So yes. Blizzard made money off of DOTA and continues to do so. Simply because people 'had' to buy WC3 to play it.

People still buy Warcraft 3. But I can almost guarantee most of them are doing so so they can play DOTA.

Don't confuse direct profit with associated profit. Just because Blizzard isn't directly taking money for or from DOTA, it doesn't mean they aren't making money from people having to buy WC3 to play it.

All of this means that, with the advent of Dota 2, there's a good chance that a lot of the people still buying or playing Warcraft 3 for DOTA will no longer do so. Which also decreases the likelihood of Blizzard banking on the name again should they make another Warcraft.

Ergo, they will lose money.

 

[Freechoice]

Can you name any single Valve game save for Half Life that wasn't a mod or the original idea of someone else?

snip

Answer my question.

Valve hires the people with the new ideas and gives them the assets to make the best version of their idea that they can.

It's like Team Fortress. The original Team Fortress was created as a Quake mod. It had a somewhat lengthy history as a quake mode before it moved to Half-Life with TFC. Yet, you never heard about id Software getting all (to use an internet vernacular) "butthurt" over Valve trademarking the name Team Fortress. Even though, until then, people associated Team Fortress with a Quake mod.

And do you know why? Because id had no claim to it. They had no rights to the name and, quite frankly, had no reason to bank on it nor fear brand confusion.

The EXACT same thing applies to Blizzard with DOTA. Their case is tenuous at best and, quite frankly, is all but completely baseless. The only reason they're doing this now is because they want to (finally) bank on the MOBA/DOTA trend with their own. (And let's face it, Blizzard DOTA as a Starcraft 2 mod is just a rushed, lazy way of getting something to market to compete with Dota2)

To put it simply, Blizzard is trying, and in my eyes failing, to play the "sympathetic to the community" card while they, in fact, would probably be trying to trademark the name themselves if Valve hadn't beaten them to it.

This whole affair screams of corporate BS to me. What is with the current trend of big-name publishers actively bashing and lambasting Valve? What, are the big boys of the playground afraid of the success of the feisty, little guy? First it's EA laying into them over Origin, now it's Acti-Blizz over the name DOTA.

My argument has nothing to do with Blizzard trying to block the trademark, but with the creative sterility of Valve as a whole. Their only truly original IP is Half-Life. I don't give a shit about Blizzard and them ripping off Warhammer.

What would Blizzard have gained if they had trademarked and taken DotA? Nothing. The game was played on their software and they could not charge money to play an updated version of it. That's it. Do you think Blizzard expects to cash in on SC2 having a version of DotA when there are free to play games like League of Legends or HoN sticking around that people are already familiar with?

The answer is no.

Basically, screw Valve's inability to make anything new or innovative. If they so badly want to support the community, make a subdivision within the company to handle independent projects and make Half Life 3.

Also, big boys? Valve IS a big boy. They make billions with digital distribution.

 

[Atmos Duality]

The HoN master race sits backs and enjoys the chaos. Mwahahahaha.

IceFrog made Dota? Please fuck off. He just maintained it (poorly) and stole idea's from the non-Allstar games. Dude was a hack and still is.

IceFrog is the hack?
*laughs maniacally*

Oho..that's...that's hilarious man.

Right...that's why it's IceFrog, and not Eul, Sithis, Kegsta, Pendragon or Guinsoo (the latter of who are too busy peddling skins for 10 bucks a pop for their taskmasters...no really, LoL is funded and owned by a Chinese company) who was hired by Valve.

If there is anything I can say about Valve it's this: They know talent when they see it. They built their company out of community modders first, not stockholder initiatives mergers or buyouts like any other publisher.

But the fuck do I know? I only played DotA since the original maps before Eul helped create the WoC flavor...back when it was called Aeon of Strife, and on Starcraft.

 

[Bradeck]

Can you name any single Valve game save for Half Life that wasn't a mod or the original idea of someone else?

snip

Answer my question.

Valve hires the people with the new ideas and gives them the assets to make the best version of their idea that they can.

It's like Team Fortress. The original Team Fortress was created as a Quake mod. It had a somewhat lengthy history as a quake mode before it moved to Half-Life with TFC. Yet, you never heard about id Software getting all (to use an internet vernacular) "butthurt" over Valve trademarking the name Team Fortress. Even though, until then, people associated Team Fortress with a Quake mod.

And do you know why? Because id had no claim to it. They had no rights to the name and, quite frankly, had no reason to bank on it nor fear brand confusion.

The EXACT same thing applies to Blizzard with DOTA. Their case is tenuous at best and, quite frankly, is all but completely baseless. The only reason they're doing this now is because they want to (finally) bank on the MOBA/DOTA trend with their own. (And let's face it, Blizzard DOTA as a Starcraft 2 mod is just a rushed, lazy way of getting something to market to compete with Dota2)

To put it simply, Blizzard is trying, and in my eyes failing, to play the "sympathetic to the community" card while they, in fact, would probably be trying to trademark the name themselves if Valve hadn't beaten them to it.

This whole affair screams of corporate BS to me. What is with the current trend of big-name publishers actively bashing and lambasting Valve? What, are the big boys of the playground afraid of the success of the feisty, little guy? First it's EA laying into them over Origin, now it's Acti-Blizz over the name DOTA.

My argument has nothing to do with Blizzard trying to block the trademark, but with the creative sterility of Valve as a whole. Their only truly original IP is Half-Life. I don't give a shit about Blizzard and them ripping off Warhammer.

What would Blizzard have gained if they had trademarked and taken DotA? Nothing. The game was played on their software and they could not charge money to play an updated version of it. That's it. Do you think Blizzard expects to cash in on SC2 having a version of DotA when there are free to play games like League of Legends or HoN sticking around that people are already familiar with?

The answer is no.

Basically, screw Valve's inability to make anything new or innovative. If they so badly want to support the community, make a subdivision within the company to handle independent projects and make Half Life 3.

Also, big boys? Valve IS a big boy. They make billions with digital distribution.

I'm not answering your question, because that's not the point of my statement. My statement is that Blizzard shamelessly rips off other people's ideas, and gets pissed when other people do it do them. I was NOT making a case for Valve, or in any way referencing Valve. I don't care to get into a fanboy pissing match with you, because that's not why I posted.

For you to tell me to justify a position I never took is kinda odd. If I had come out and said Valve is in the right, and they NEVER steal any intellectual property, then you could have me justify it. But instead, I am saying the opposite of Blizz.

Now then, PORTAL. Totally changed the idea of FPS games, and had never been done before. To answer your question.

 

[Lev The Red]

IMO only people who have a claim to the DOTA name are those who made the damn thing. This was a number of people over the years. One of them (IceFrog) is working on DOTA2 at Valve. This pretty much settles this lawsuit. If anything, Valve should be able to sue Blizz for their "Blizzard DOTA" crap, since as far as I know none of the DOTA people are working on it at Blizz. But no, I don't think a company should automatically get full IP ownership over all user-made mods for their games.

This.
just because the mod is played on blizzard's game, doesn't make it their IP. unless of course they bought it from IceFrog and the others, like Valve has done with several community maps and mods for TF2 and L4D1&2.

in my opinion, Valve has more of a right to it than blizzard simply because they are actually making a dota game.

 

[Freechoice]

Now then, PORTAL. Totally changed the idea of FPS games, and had never been done before. To answer your question.

Narbacular Drop [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narbacular_Drop]. Heard of it?

And boohoo, you don't like Blizzard ripping off Warhammer. Brood War and Reign of Chaos were good stories and were fun to play. As far as I know, Blizzard is not filing countersuit so that they can trademark DotA for themselves. If they're not, they stand to gain nothing with Blizzard DotA.

 

[Bradeck]

What is your deal dude? I DON'T CARE THAT ANYONE ELSE IS A COPYCAT. I AM NOT ARGUING THAT. I am simply arguing that Blizzard cannot claim that Valve is hurting their intellectual property, when they have done it SO MUCH to others.

If I club 10,000 baby seals, I can't turn around and bemoan all the other poachers for doing what I just did.

I. Don't. Give. A pickled shit on rye. What. Other. Companies. Do. I am strictly focusing my argument on the duality of Blizzard. Stop coming up with straw man arguments.

I cited Blizzard ripping off Warhammer because they did. Not because I am a fan. I just know they have, because it's OBVIOUS. I do however claim to be a Jim Henson fanboy, because he's a great legend, a great man, and had a genius mind for fantasy films and TV shows. I pointed out The Dark Crystal ripoff because, again, it was obvious.

As has been stated, this is in no way about Blizzard losing their property. This is about money.

Look, PM me, because we shouldn't be arguing this on this thread anyway. It's getting away from the point.

 

[Orcboyphil]

I'm surprised it's taken them this long.

I think Valve are in the wrong this time. DOTA is a Warcraft mod, and has no link to anything Valve has ever originated. If anyone has a claim on the name it's Blizzard.

If anybody has a claim its the guy who came up with the original mod!

 

[Alexnader]

I am with Blizzard on this one, nobody should have exclusive rights for the name DOTA and Valve trying to trademark the name is just wrong.

And I feel that if Valve win it will hurt the modding community.

...you do realise that if Valve win this it will ostensibly set the precedent that modders actually have some ownership over the mods they create, right? Because one of the original creators of DOTA, Iceyfrog, is now working for Valve on this very game.

Whereas if they lose it would mean that even if you come up with a completely new game, if you happened to implement it in say TF2 then any sequel to that game would be trading off Valve's name and would thus breach trademark because the original mod was "associated with TF2, a Valve game".

Lets get rid of any inherent bias as to who loves Bliz/Valev more. Imagine if you made a really awesome mod, that everybody loved and then six years later a big game studio/publisher comes up to you and says "Hey that mod you made was really good, would you like to come with us and make it into a fully fledged game?". Then the owners of the game you modded start suing your employer saying they're breaching trademark for making your mod. Would you, as the modder, feel that the owners of the game you modded were looking out for your best interests? I wouldn't.

 

[Dendio]

Siding with blizz on this one. Dota was the warcraft 3 community. I played it, and considered it part of my battle.net and warcraft 3 experience. it was awesome how many great games were on the free battle.net

If Valve trademarks ?Dota? and Blizzard releases ?Blizzard Dota? for SC2, then Valve can sue them (and very likely win). By trying to block Valves trademark now, Blizzard is protecting themselves from that.

The only other option would be for Blizzard to leave the Dota name to Valve and rename Blizzard Dota to something else?. which would be very stupid?.

 

[Dendio]

I'm surprised it's taken them this long.

I think Valve are in the wrong this time. DOTA is a Warcraft mod, and has no link to anything Valve has ever originated. If anyone has a claim on the name it's Blizzard.

If anybody has a claim its the guy who came up with the original mod!

Thats just one guy out of a team of modders. The majority of the modders want the name to remain open source.

 

[Vigormortis]

My argument has nothing to do with Blizzard trying to block the trademark, but with the creative sterility of Valve as a whole. Their only truly original IP is Half-Life. I don't give a shit about Blizzard and them ripping off Warhammer.

What would Blizzard have gained if they had trademarked and taken DotA? Nothing. The game was played on their software and they could not charge money to play an updated version of it. That's it. Do you think Blizzard expects to cash in on SC2 having a version of DotA when there are free to play games like League of Legends or HoN sticking around that people are already familiar with?

The answer is no.

Basically, screw Valve's inability to make anything new or innovative. If they so badly want to support the community, make a subdivision within the company to handle independent projects and make Half Life 3.

Also, big boys? Valve IS a big boy. They make billions with digital distribution.

First, if you're argument is on "...the creative sterility of Valve...", then why are you in this thread? That has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Though, I fail to see how they aren't 'creative' if the people that WORK there are the ones who thought up the mods and ideas that led to the games we now have. That's like saying a talented musician, who's made many popular albums, is no longer talented because he's now putting out albums through a different label. It's just nonsense.

Second, Blizzard had plenty to gain from trademarking DOTA themselves. They just didn't want to put the time, effort, or money into the process because they thought they already 'owned' it. Seeing as it was only a Warcraft 3 mod. Now that it's not, they stand to lose their cash cow.

And the answer is most definitely yes. The only reason Blizzard is making Blizzard DOTA is to cash in on the MOBA trend.

Once again, people can't seem to grasp the difference between direct profit from product sale and indirect profit from brand association. Which is what this whole thing is about.

Non-innovative? I'm not even going to get into this one. Firstly, because it's way off topic and secondly because, more often then not, the rest of industry is playing catch-up to Valve. (see: Yahtzee in the Resistance 3 review)

And no, they aren't one of the "big boys". Profit margins do NOT a big company make. They are still comprised of only one division and less than three hundred employees total. Compare this to EA, Activision, or Ubisofts publishing divisions alone.

When Steve Wozniak and Steve Jobs started selling computers as a 'company', they made billions in a matter of hours. Yet, their 'company' was comprised of...two people. By your logic, that made them "one of the big boys". Seems a stretch to me.

 

[samsonguy920]

Lets put this another way. Blizzard is claiming DOTA as an unregistered trademark. If Valve successfully registers DOTA as a trademark, unchallenged, they will be legally capable of suing Blizzard, or anyone else, who persists in using "their" trademark.

Now how does that sound?

It falls in the same pit of legal despair that the fooforah over Scrolls does. Bethesda/Zenimax had zero issues with the matter until Mojang put in the paperwork to trademark the name. In the end it would have been better if the paperwork was never filed, as then there wouldn't have been an issue.

Blizzard can't win since they don't hold the copyrights to the name DOTA. It's a community mod. No one holds copyright to it. Of course Valve sholdn't be making DOTA in the first place since it's a modification of Blizzard's best game in my humble opinion.

Read your TOA/EULA. Mods are possible because anything created using a specific game engine falls under the domination of the copyright holder of that engine. You are basically given permission to make a mod for a game, but you can not profit from it, nor try to financially claim it as your own as the code for it derives from the game engine you created it for. This is why Blizzard would prefer it be kept from being trademarked, as then they would have to restrict use of the mod being used for their own game. And that would be bad for business. Blizzard knows DOTA helps sell their games. There are already some popular mods for Starcraft II that have been boosting sales for that game. Shame the same can't happen for Diablo III. That's the part that has me so confused.
Valve is being woefully stupid here, as Blizzard has a strong case, and it could end up where Valve loses any rights to recreating DOTA for their own use, even if they change the name. It would have been far better to start with a new name from the get-go, or just license the engine.

 

[Vigormortis]

I think the thing we need to keep in mind here, and it's something we're ALL forgetting, is that the people who have a say in who can own the trademark on the name are the creators of the mod.

At present, both Icefrog and Eul are working at Valve. Therefore, Valve has more of a right to trademark the name than Blizzard-Activision has to request Valve be denied.

And, seeing as ALL of the assets being used in Dota 2 were created from the ground up and NOT copied or ported from Warcraft 3, Blizzard's claims are baseless.

See here: http://www.1up.com/previews/dota-2-valve-fanboys-developers
(not a website plug)

 

[linwolf]

I am with Blizzard on this one, nobody should have exclusive rights for the name DOTA and Valve trying to trademark the name is just wrong.

And I feel that if Valve win it will hurt the modding community.

...you do realise that if Valve win this it will ostensibly set the precedent that modders actually have some ownership over the mods they create, right? Because one of the original creators of DOTA, Iceyfrog, is now working for Valve on this very game.

Whereas if they lose it would mean that even if you come up with a completely new game, if you happened to implement it in say TF2 then any sequel to that game would be trading off Valve's name and would thus breach trademark because the original mod was "associated with TF2, a Valve game".

Lets get rid of any inherent bias as to who loves Bliz/Valev more. Imagine if you made a really awesome mod, that everybody loved and then six years later a big game studio/publisher comes up to you and says "Hey that mod you made was really good, would you like to come with us and make it into a fully fledged game?". Then the owners of the game you modded start suing your employer saying they're breaching trademark for making your mod. Would you, as the modder, feel that the owners of the game you modded were looking out for your best interests? I wouldn't.

But the other side is that by making it so that the company have no right at all you could end up with situations where the game developer made modding hard or impossibly was they could be use as a case for lawsuit if something like the mod would be implemented in the game later by them. There are already a lot of companies that tries to stop modding as they compete with their DLC, this why give them even bigger reason to prevent modding.

 

[linwolf]

I think the thing we need to keep in mind here, and it's something we're ALL forgetting, is that the people who have a say in who can own the trademark on the name are the creators of the mod.

At present, both Icefrog and Eul are working at Valve. Therefore, Valve has more of a right to trademark the name than Blizzard-Activision has to request Valve be denied.

And, seeing as ALL of the assets being used in Dota 2 were created from the ground up and NOT copied or ported from Warcraft 3, Blizzard's claims are baseless.

See here: http://www.1up.com/previews/dota-2-valve-fanboys-developers
(not a website plug)

A lot of the other creators of the mod have gone against Valves trademark, even going as far as creating DotA-Allstars, LLC in their effect to keep it a community-owned product. And for more information about it, in 2008, Feak and Mescon each assigned all of their rights in and to the DotA
Mods and the DotA-Allstars Website to "DotA-Allstars, LLC." In 2010, DotA-Allstars,
9 LLC was purchased by Riot Games, Inc. In 2011, Riot transferred DotA-Allstars, LLC to
Blizzard.