Blizzard Explains Why It Gives "Bad Cards" To New Hearthstone Players

[RJ 17]

For those of you wondering, according to my math at 40g per daily quest and 10g for your 3 Wins in a Day, it'll take roughly 70 days to grind out enough gold for a complete expansion.

This would all be nice and fine if their matchmaking actually matched new players with other new players. When your matchmaking is near non-existent and you throw your new players in with players who have decks full of legendaries, this explanation is no excuse. People are going to call your game shit, and I fall into that camp. You put new players in an extremely not fun and unfair situation. Until matchmaking exists for new players I will forever continue to claim that Hearthstone is an extremely bad game.

And this right here pretty much sums up why I started the game two weeks ago and have already quit the game about five days ago: the matchmaking is absolutely atrocious. It's pretty shitty when I can predict with 90% certainty whether I'll lose a match or have a chance of winning before the first card has even been played.

Do they have special card backs?
Do they have an animated portrait?

If one or both of these factors is present, then chances are the person I'm playing has actually spent money on the game...which means I'm most likely right and proper fucked. I also love how the matchmaking always says you've been matched with "A Worthy Opponent." Oh sure, he's only got 8 legendaries in his deck while I'm throwing out my...8/8 that costs one less for each minion on the board. Oh look, it just got polymorphed.

At least they're coming out and admitting that their game's full of shit. "We give beginners crap cards so they can gradually learn how to play the game and feel a sense of progression. And if they feel like spending $25 so they can have access to some good cards, well, that'll certainly help them feel even more progression." Personally I laughed when I read the bit about why they hold back the more "complex" cards from newcomers because "it's too daunting for them." What, you think they won't understand how the card works? Your game tells players in plain, easy-to-read text exactly what each card is going to do.

Gee golly gosh! Wtf is Windfury? *hover mouse over card* Oh, it means he gets to attack twice in the same turn.

P.S. The other reason I quit is because I got tired of playing against Jaina and Uther every god damn game.

 

[RJ 17]

Is this game pay to win? Probably. About as pay to win as any other card game.

The difference between Hearthstone and MTG is that MTG isn't sold as a Free To Play casual TCG. Most people tend to get rather irked when a Free To Play game is revealed as actually being Pay To Win...because not everyone has the money to pay to be competitive. As such, they're perfectly justified in saying they don't like a game where your level of competitiveness is based upon how much you're willing to spend.

And what do you care? Why should you care? If you like the game, well that's fine and dandy. If others don't like the game, well that's fine too. Their dislike for the game doesn't - or at least shouldn't - change the fact that you enjoy it.

......unless, of course, the person you're really trying to convince with your defense of the game is yourself. :3

 

[DoPo]

For those of you wondering, according to my math at 40g per daily quest and 10g for your 3 Wins in a Day, it'll take roughly 70 days to grind out enough gold for a complete expansion.

You're grinding wrong. You need to only do 60 gold quests, although 50 might be OK as well. 100 gold is the dream, but it's rare, so you don't need to specifically aim for it. You don't do quests if all you have it 40g ones and you makes sure you repick a quest a day in order to try and get a higher value one - try to repick quests you might accidentally do, like "damage to the face" and "kill/play X creatures". If your quests are full, then you might need to bite the bullet and do a 40g quest - it's better than losing the money.

I've bought all expansions (sans the newest Adventure one) using only gold. It takes a bit more than a week to get each wing. Well, I've also had more than 3 wins a day, but not THAT much - maybe something like 10-30 extra gold per day. Maybe slightly higher on weekends as there is more time in the day to play - I played while doing something else, like browing the forums. It was fairly unobtrusive, as the game doesn't require my entire attention, so I can watch/read stuff in the mean time.

 

[TilMorrow]

To be honest this is one of the main reasons why the Tavern Brawl Mode exists. To give something for new and casual players to play without feeling like they need to splurge on card packs and Adventures to stay relevant and have a slightly more fair and random game to play than trying to rank up in ladder which is a far more competitive game or the base play mode which is full of people playing Meta decks to farm gold or even taking the gamble that is Arena mode for more gold/dust and cards/card packs for 150 of their gold. Additionally it allows players to progress and expand their card base and knowledge by enabling quest completion and three game wins gold rewards to purchase more cards and adventure wings as well as see more advanced plays without the pressure of ranked mode. Heck I've been farming my 700 gold for each wing of the recent adventure The League of Explorers in Tavern Brawl and I'm now just farming up my last 700g.

 

[rcs619]

This would all be nice and fine if their matchmaking actually matched new players with other new players. When your matchmaking is near non-existent and you throw your new players in with players who have decks full of legendaries, this explanation is no excuse. People are going to call your game shit, and I fall into that camp. You put new players in an extremely not fun and unfair situation. Until matchmaking exists for new players I will forever continue to claim that Hearthstone is an extremely bad game.

There is actually a hidden matchmaker that makes sure to pair newbie players up with newbie players for some initial period of time. It does dump you into the deep-end eventually, but the lower ranks aren't bad. You don't even begin running into net-decks until rank 18, and the game doesn't start to get serious in any way until 15. The default cards (and whatever you get from the 10+ free packs you receive from the tutorials) are plenty fine for those lower ranks.

I would like them to tweak the matchmaking eventually though. Have it not *just* be by your season rank, but also have your overall stats come into play to some degree (at least prior to rank 10 or so). I don't even play ranked mode for the first week of the season because there's a bunch of legend players starting at rank 15 trying to climb back up, lol.

"We keep those cards incredibly simple to be that very slow learning curve for new players," Brode says. "We want some of the Basic Cards to be bad, really bad, to make that feeling of progression even stronger."

I read that as "We're gimping the newer players and slowly forcing them to buy the newer cards by giving them shit cards."

Anyone else?

Ehh, I think that's a bit of an oversimplification. There are some true stinkers in the default card set, but a lot of them are fairly solid (and still see play in proper, constructed decks). Is there an element of "Hey, wouldn't you like to spend some money?" of course there is, it's a free-to-play game, but Hearthstone is easily the least pressuring FTP game I've ever played, between all the free in-game currency and packs you can earn.

There's actually a series of videos this pro player does, where he took an account from a fresh start to legend rank without spending a single penny. Granted, he's a pro player, but it does show that all you need to be good at Hearthstone is a little knowledge and some luck (it *is* a CCG afterall).

I've never spent a dime in Hearthstone, and have over 1000 wins.

While there's certainly an argument that Hearthstone is NOW harder for new players (Brode hand-waves that particular issue as "Nah, there are all kinds of reasons they could be losing") that's something which could be fixed with better matchmaking. The model they're using isn't irredeemable.

Pretty much. I admit to spending money on Hearthstone every now and then (really only around Christmas or my birthday), I get the vast majority of my cards by dusting free packs. It's slow, but completely do-able. Especially if you just focus on 2 or 3 classes you like the most.

Newbie catch-up is going to be an issue as the game goes on, and Blizzard has mentioned it a few times. I really think they're just going to need to increase the "classic" card pool that newbies start with. Maybe start moving over some select cards from GvG or Naxxaramus as new sets come out. I would personally love "adventure packs" eventually. Buy them for gold (maybe 150) and you can get a random shot at cards otherwise found in adventures (that could maybe also let us finally dust some of the useless adventure cards, lol).

 

[kitsunefather]

Shorter answer:

"Why do you give shitty cards to new players?"

"Because we sell random packs that contain better cards, and like money."

 

[Thyunda]

As someone who willfully plays war golem knowing it's not a good card, I have to question his reasoning. Each pack is 5 cards. Each normal card is 5-20 dust when converted. Each normal card is 40-100 dust when crafted. There are 9 classes. The math isn't there for what he's describing.

Yes, it's a bad card. I'll happily get rid of it when it stops being the most useful card of its cost I have or when my other cards are so good that I don't need a card of that cost. Given that I have a minimal social life and a job, though, I don't believe that's going to happen. I only still play at all because of tavern brawl and arena.

Oh, and seriously, if you think the "meta" is the most important part of your card design, there's something seriously wrong with you as a developer.

I can't take your argument seriously when you actually admit to using the War Golem. It's awful. It won't even see a turn of action. For its cost, your opponent will be able to just instant kill it no matter what class they are.


I've been playing since launch, on and off, and I haven't spent a single penny on the game. I did quests until I had the gold to do an Arena run, then I'd do that. Eventually I got a fairly competent deck and ignored my friend's insistence that I do adventures and kept using my gold to buy the expansion packs.
Then he annihilated me with Kel'Thuzad, Ragnaros the Firelord, and a bunch of other adventure-specific legendaries. So I decided to save up my gold to do the League of Explorers on its release and that was just the best decision ever. Discover cards are awesome.

 

[RJ 17]

You're grinding wrong. You need to only do 60 gold quests, although 50 might be OK as well. 100 gold is the dream, but it's rare, so you don't need to specifically aim for it. You don't do quests if all you have it 40g ones and you makes sure you repick a quest a day in order to try and get a higher value one - try to repick quests you might accidentally do, like "damage to the face" and "kill/play X creatures". If your quests are full, then you might need to bite the bullet and do a 40g quest - it's better than losing the money.

Or I could, you know, say "screw that game and it's crappy matchmaking" and just play something else instead.

 

[tacotrainwreck]

Wow. That's a good one.

So tutorial mode is free. Wanna actually play the game? Cough up some money.

 

[DoPo]

You're grinding wrong. You need to only do 60 gold quests, although 50 might be OK as well. 100 gold is the dream, but it's rare, so you don't need to specifically aim for it. You don't do quests if all you have it 40g ones and you makes sure you repick a quest a day in order to try and get a higher value one - try to repick quests you might accidentally do, like "damage to the face" and "kill/play X creatures". If your quests are full, then you might need to bite the bullet and do a 40g quest - it's better than losing the money.

Or I could, you know, say "screw that game and it's crappy matchmaking" and just play something else instead.

Remember how I said I've bought all expansions except the last one? Yeah, it's because I'm currently doing exactly what you suggested there.

 

[RJ 17]

You're grinding wrong. You need to only do 60 gold quests, although 50 might be OK as well. 100 gold is the dream, but it's rare, so you don't need to specifically aim for it. You don't do quests if all you have it 40g ones and you makes sure you repick a quest a day in order to try and get a higher value one - try to repick quests you might accidentally do, like "damage to the face" and "kill/play X creatures". If your quests are full, then you might need to bite the bullet and do a 40g quest - it's better than losing the money.

Or I could, you know, say "screw that game and it's crappy matchmaking" and just play something else instead.

Remember how I said I've bought all expansions except the last one? Yeah, it's because I'm currently doing exactly what you suggested there.

It's pretty sad, too. I really wanted to like the game as I've always been a WC fan. Granted: I haven't played WoW since the end of Burning Crusade, but I still enjoyed my time with it while I was in it. So a TCG based off of that world seemed like a lot of fun!

But when you get into it and face one Jaina after another Uther in succession, each with decks that curbstomp yours by turn 4, and you start to lose interest very quickly. I'm not all that competitive of a person when it comes to games...but that doesn't mean I can be satisfied with losing 4 out of 5 games I play.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

I honestly believe the man is sincere. His answer is exactly what I thought a developer would tell themselves at night to believe their own bullshit.

And it is pretty obvious why new players draft bad decks, because they don't understand how important Mana Curve is.

Once they learn that aspect, they'll realize that they're screwed because power creep cards will fuck them every time, because power creep fucks the Mana Curve in favor of the newer cards.

Obviously no one was using War Golem (why does he even bring this up?), but War Golem establishes the baseline value of a 7-mana cost minion because he does not have a special effect. Therefore any card with advantageous text, which Dr. Boom undoubtedly does, should either cost more mana, have lower stats, or have RNG aspect.

There is power creep, that is not contested. The real conversation is how much power creep is bad and how it might hurt the lifespan of the game.

I think tavern brawl and arena are great additions to the game and new players should play those and take it easy with the game (let quests overlap). Otherwise you would be looking at spending a little money.

 

[WarpedMind]

Two things.

One, this is obviously a business decision, if you handed players enough cards to make a worthwhile deck out of the gate then some of them would simply stick with that.

Secondly, I'm not sure I buy the line about "Keeping the learning curve low", not that I don't believe he means it, it's more that I don't believe it's actually needed. Blizzard has a very, VERY low opinion of the intelligence of the average player, everyone that's heard of the "We only give you 9 deck slots because more of them would be "too confusing"" debacle will know very well. Blizzard is shooting for the absolute lowest of the low when choosing who to design their games around, and while that might be good for these theoretical mental sub-normals they're designing for that doesn't mean it's not annoying for everyone else.

 

[Frankster]

Hum this sounds like the exact ideal opposite of most decent card games I play/know off, usually the best outcome is to make every card useful in some respect, or at least try to.

But hey Hearthstone is more successful then any other online ccg I play so maybe it's got the right idea ;/

 

[DoPo]

Blizzard is shooting for the absolute lowest of the low when choosing who to design their games around

I watched a Hearthstone tournament a couple of months back - it was the one held during BlizzCon so it was a fairly large and well publicised event. It really turned me off the entire game, since when I watched the finals, I felt treated like an idiot. The commentators were stopping and explaining what common cards do. You know, to the people watching the tournament, presumably those would be ones who are interested in Hearthstone, therefore, presumably they would know what the common cards do. But n. o. And that happened all the time.

Imagine you're watching the basketball finals or something and the commentators start to explain what "dribbling" is and what the objective of the game is then go on and explain the advanced concepts of what a team is and how to recognise players who are in the same team.

Every. Match.

Of. The. Finals.

And what was also annoying is their constant yammering about how oh so very important the winners trophy is. They even outright said "Well, the winner gets few hundred thousand dollars but that's nothing compared to getting the title of Hearthstone champion!". The final nail in the coffin was when they interviewed one of the semifinalists and he expressed his happiness of going this far and stated that he was just happy with participating and wasn't too concerned with the prise. The commentators then started discussing how that was an odd thing to say and how the prise was totally cool, yo, and it's the bestest thing in the world.

 

[Colt47]

The only thing I was thinking through this entire article is "so start new players off with mechanically simple, but competitive cards." That's how I generally enter new TCGs and it lets me get a better feel for the game than trying to play starter packs and getting the worst experience of my life.

 

[Lord_Gremlin]

Since Hearthstone is a video game with tutorial and AI practice I simply can dismiss all his argument.
They do it to force players to pay. Because it is pay2win. Let's be real. The only "f2p" legend players are actually people who spent 8 hours a day playing and grinded the mandatory cards.
Look at how well any of those players did when they started with basic decks. The twitch VODs are there.
That said, p2w in a card game is normal and expected. Except digital ones usually offer a playable deck for like $60-80.

 

[(whitty name here)]

Is this game pay to win? Probably. About as pay to win as any other card game.

The difference between Hearthstone and MTG is that MTG isn't sold as a Free To Play casual TCG. Most people tend to get rather irked when a Free To Play game is revealed as actually being Pay To Win...because not everyone has the money to pay to be competitive. As such, they're perfectly justified in saying they don't like a game where your level of competitiveness is based upon how much you're willing to spend.

And what do you care? Why should you care? If you like the game, well that's fine and dandy. If others don't like the game, well that's fine too. Their dislike for the game doesn't - or at least shouldn't - change the fact that you enjoy it.

......unless, of course, the person you're really trying to convince with your defense of the game is yourself. :3

I'm pretty sure Blizzard more or less has been advertising Hearthstone as a Free to Play card game, so at least in my head, I read it as "A CCG where you can earn free packs." To which I replied "Awesome!"

Why should I care? I dunno, why do you care enough to reply to my comment? Why do people in this thread complain about Pay 2 Win instead of just quitting? Reasons I guess, but I don't think why people care matters all that much to the conversation. The fact that there's a discussion here is what matters, at least in this tiny thread on the internet.

As for convincing others: eh. I just felt this thread was one sided and I had nothing better to do. As said, I went into this as a cheap alternative to MTG so the ability to get free packs in the first place is just gravy.

 

[RJ 17]

I'm pretty sure Blizzard more or less has been advertising Hearthstone as a Free to Play card game, so at least in my head, I read it as "A CCG where you can earn free packs." To which I replied "Awesome!"

You seem to be missing what I was getting at. The point is that MtG is Pay to Win...but it never claimed to be anything but that. Someone getting into MtG knows full well that, if they want to be competitive at the game, they're going to have to invest a fair amount of cash into buying packs and cards.

Hearthstone is Pay to Win, yet claims it's Free To Play. Someone - such as myself - wanting to get into Hearthstone will start playing it figuring that they could grind out some free packs and be at least moderately competitive, only to find out that those willing to invest cash into the game will have a distinct - and according to this interview: game-intended - advantage over those who don't.

Why do people in this thread complain about Pay 2 Win instead of just quitting?

In looking at the other comments, that's actually exactly what's been happening.

With that said, I do apologize for my previous post. I was tired and already half-asleep, having trouble getting my thoughts to text and in rereading it, it looks like it didn't end up coming out how I intended it to come out.

 

[(whitty name here)]

Hearthstone is Pay to Win, yet claims it's Free To Play. Someone - such as myself - wanting to get into Hearthstone will start playing it figuring that they could grind out some free packs and be at least moderately competitive, only to find out that those willing to invest cash into the game will have a distinct - and according to this interview: game-intended - advantage over those who don't.

This interview implies a greater advantage than there actually is when it comes to the quality of cards. Don't get me wrong, it'll be a long while before a F2P player can put together a Freeze Mage, a Handlock, or a Wallet Warrior, but you can in fact play semi competitive decks at a low budget. For example, this Face Hunter [http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/hunter-face-aggro-rush-tgt-deck] deck for the low low price of 1460 dust is run by a pro Hearthstone streamer that consistently hits legend. Or this Paladin deck [http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/313487-tgt-legend-eboladin-very-cheap-deck] for 1740 dust. Also top 200 legend. Both of these decks have exactly 1 epic and the rest are rares/commons/basics.

They're not super fancy, but I more or less ran similar versions of these decks while I built up my card library just as a means of generating gold and therefore more packs/dust. I dunno if you've given up on HS, but hey, there they are if you wanna give em a shot.

That's not to mention the fact that a lot of times, the really common/most played cards for a lot of classes are, in fact low rarity cards. Wild Growth, Kill Command, Fireball, Truesilver Champion, Shadow Wordeath, Deadly Poison, Fire Elemental, Hellfire, Execute, these are all basic cards that see pretty much guaranteed play in even the highest level decks for their respective classes. Commons are all over the place too with Muster for Battle, Piloted Shredder, Shielded Minibot, Mana Wyrm, Sorceror's apprentice and many many more.

I get it. It sucks losing to people with a lot of Legendaries when you don't have any. But most of the good ones save for Bloodmage Thalnos cost at least 6 and there's plenty of cheap decks that can kill a player by the time 6 mana rolls around. Take a look around, you might find something you're interested in.