Born gay, Chose to be gay, Can't it be both?

[Justank]

I could have had a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. But the question is, why would I want to be with someone I am not attracted to physically and emotionally? I'll stick with my boyfriend instead.

Being with someone is a choice, but I just don't get how people think you can "choose" who they are attracted to.

because it is a choice.
your mind, through the years of psychological build up, emotional connections, and personal prefrences, has created this situation in which you believe that you have no choice. but the fact of the matter is that you have a choice, it still remains, it is just that one side has such a heavy argument with it that it is hard to see any other then just it.

just like any other thing which you would do something with out question. it isn't that there is no other choice... your personal values, emotions, morals, and other psychological settings have made it so that you just simply don't think of any other choice.

Bringing up the logical fallacy of limiting the situation to one choice is irrelevant in this, for whatever reason some people are attracted to people of their own sex. They certainly do think of the other choice, many of them wish it was a choice they could enjoy, but quite frankly it isn't, so they go with the choice that makes them happy.

 

[Snork Maiden]

Offtopicish personal thingy, part of me wishes I was exclusively straight so that I wouldn't have to deal with all this controversial bullshit and coming out to my parents and such

Out of curiosity, why do you feel you have to "come out" to your parents at all? I never told my parents I'm Bi, and I doubt the words "I'm Bi, by the way" will ever leave my lips. I hardly ever tell people I know unless they ask me if I'm gay or not (at which point clarification is probably needed) - it's just not something I feel is a worthwhile piece of information to share. I'm pretty sure my parents know I am. In fact I know they know I am, but that doesn't mean it needs to be discussed anymore than I'd sit down and tell them I'm straight.

 

[Kurokami]

Offtopicish personal thingy, part of me wishes I was exclusively straight so that I wouldn't have to deal with all this controversial bullshit and coming out to my parents and such

Out of curiosity, why do you feel you have to "come out" to your parents at all? I never told my parents I'm Bi, and I doubt the words "I'm Bi, by the way" will ever leave my lips. I hardly ever tell people I know unless they ask me if I'm gay or not (at which point clarification is probably needed) - it's just not something I feel is a worthwhile piece of information to share. I'm pretty sure my parents know I am. In fact I know they know I am, but that doesn't mean it needs to be discussed anymore than I'd sit down and tell them I'm straight.

I agree with this. It's kinda like the whole "this is porn, son" conversation, I never had it, I just logged on the internet. Parents tend to stay away from their childrens sexual preferences, as do the children generally hide it from their parents, so what's the big deal? I guess parents will often want grandchildren, so I suppose from that point of view they may wish to get a headsup on that not happening anytime soon, but then again, homosexuals can adopt and straight as I am, I'm not any closer to the having children thing either.

 

[Dastardly]

I see a lot of people on both sides arguing if people were born gay or chose to be gay themselves. What I don't see is anyone saying both camps are just as valid as the other. Rarely, other animals beside human have exhibited gay behavior before, clearly showing it can be a rare natural occurrence. But we humans also have free will, meaning you can, indeed, choose to be gay. I'm sure both types of gays exist, they're equally valid. So why does it need to be one or the other?

Problem is, the "all genetics" people are in no way informed or reasonable. They'll just make things up, or take tiny kernels of truth and expand them to cover the entire world. "Oh, even animals do it, and it's not rare in the least!" or "Why would anyone ever 'choose' to blah blah blah blah?"

1) If it's natural and genetic, it should be on a downturn (because breeding would phase it out slightly). Not gone entirely, of course, but certainly not as widespread.

2) Not all "choices" we make are conscious. No one's really arguing it's a "choice," as much as they're arguing that the reasons are highly psychological. This explains some odd phenomena, like how an otherwise normal guy suddenly adores the attention he gets by talking in a higher, more nasal voice and referring to his buddies as "girlfriend!" all the time--that's not genetic, it's psychological.

3) There are just as many and just as likely explanations surrounding the psychological roots of such behavior. People just shy away from them because it might lead to the idea that it's a "problem" to be "fixed," instead of being able to just admit it's a psychologically-influenced process that's irreversible in nearly all cases. Genes remove responsibility, that's all.

4) "Oh, over half of identical twins that are separated from birth also share the same sexual orientation!" Okay. What you should really be asking is why the other half doesn't. If it's genetic, it's genetic. Should be 100% in cases of identical twins, or pretty near. It's nowhere close.

 

[EboMan7x]

You can in fact choose to be gay in the sense that you can choose to have sex with your same sex, however to suggest that you can be straight your entire life and then out of nowhere decide to be attracted to your same sex is simply incorrect.

 

[newfoundsky]

Because people are more concerned on whether or not it's "right", and fail to realize that it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Corpse XxX]

Bullshit. You don't choose what sex you're attracted to. That'd be like saying you chose to like the taste of salmon or lamb or coffee. Yes, I realize a food metaphor doesn't work because you can train yourself to like foods, but work with me here.

Straight people can never understand what it means or feels like to not be straight. So don't bother trying to empathize or rationalize... you just don't get it.

Yeah, i was gonna say something along these lines.. But then i noticed somebody already had.. So i copy your answer and take full credit for it.. Thank you!

 

[jamesworkshop]

I see a lot of people on both sides arguing if people were born gay or chose to be gay themselves. What I don't see is anyone saying both camps are just as valid as the other. Rarely, other animals beside human have exhibited gay behavior before, clearly showing it can be a rare natural occurrence. But we humans also have free will, meaning you can, indeed, choose to be gay. I'm sure both types of gays exist, they're equally valid. So why does it need to be one or the other?

It's a tricky subject simply because it's not as much based on observation but defence

Thoses that claim nature uses it because as nature it cannot therefore be immoral.
Thoses that claim choice do so because they fear that it could therefore be tampered with eugenics.

Personally I find the terms straight or gay to be a bit redundent since it has two components

"I am this sex and I am interested (sexually, romantically) with this sex(s)"

However If for example a woman tells you she is a lesbian, her intention (primary point) is to inform you of what sex she likes to frequent with, you can already see that she is a woman she doesn't need to tell you that, it is redundent the key point is her interest in women.

Even if her Indentity was not known the interest in women is the information trying to be given.

 

[cobra_ky]

I could have had a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. But the question is, why would I want to be with someone I am not attracted to physically and emotionally? I'll stick with my boyfriend instead.

Being with someone is a choice, but I just don't get how people think you can "choose" who they are attracted to.

because it is a choice.
your mind, through the years of psychological build up, emotional connections, and personal prefrences, has created this situation in which you believe that you have no choice. but the fact of the matter is that you have a choice, it still remains, it is just that one side has such a heavy argument with it that it is hard to see any other then just it.

just like any other thing which you would do something with out question. it isn't that there is no other choice... your personal values, emotions, morals, and other psychological settings have made it so that you just simply don't think of any other choice.

In that case, go choose to be gay for a week, then come back and tell us how it went.

It has been established that homosexuality is a choice, so NO, it can't be both.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana

By all means, please establish this.

 

[cobra_ky]

I think that you can choose to be gay.
Like you can choose to like certain music and not others.

i am trying to like country right now and it's not working.

 

[Dags90]

1) If it's natural and genetic, it should be on a downturn (because breeding would phase it out slightly). Not gone entirely, of course, but certainly not as widespread.

2) Not all "choices" we make are conscious. No one's really arguing it's a "choice," as much as they're arguing that the reasons are highly psychological. This explains some odd phenomena, like how an otherwise normal guy suddenly adores the attention he gets by talking in a higher, more nasal voice and referring to his buddies as "girlfriend!" all the time--that's not genetic, it's psychological.

3) There are just as many and just as likely explanations surrounding the psychological roots of such behavior. People just shy away from them because it might lead to the idea that it's a "problem" to be "fixed," instead of being able to just admit it's a psychologically-influenced process that's irreversible in nearly all cases. Genes remove responsibility, that's all.

4) "Oh, over half of identical twins that are separated from birth also share the same sexual orientation!" Okay. What you should really be asking is why the other half doesn't. If it's genetic, it's genetic. Should be 100% in cases of identical twins, or pretty near. It's nowhere close.

1.) The amount of people who claim to be exclusively homosexual is usually cited variously between 2-4%. That's not a significant number of people, and there is some preliminary data that suggests male homosexuality may be genetically linked to maternal fertility.[footnote]http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041012/full/news041011-5.html[/footnote]

2.) Yes people are arguing it's a conscious choice. I really don't how enjoying the attention eccentricity brings turns into liking private butt sex though. Nor does it really address all the gay people who follow societal norms.

3.) People have already brought up the "if it's genetic, shouldn't we fix it" argument. I really don't see how genetics removes more responsibility than the people arguing that its decided by your childhood life or other environmental factors. You don't choose your parents.

4.) Epigenetics, my friend. There are a myriad of diseases we know are heavily influenced by genetics but don't show up 100% the way you would expect. Mendelian genetics are a nice place for students to start, but they're not the best at describing humans and far too much emphasis is placed on them. It's bad pedagogy.

 

[Ericb]

I think that you can choose to be gay.
Like you can choose to like certain music and not others.

i am trying to like country right now and it's not working.

You're not trying hard enough. Wear the customary hat, it'll help.

 

[otterhead]

I think this sums it up:

BlindMessiah94, thank you. Initially I started reading this thread a little angry, then I found it intriguing. But then after watching that video I felt quite shaken up. I forgot that some people honestly think that I woke up one morning as a teenager decided to choose a way of life completely at odds with everyone else I knew.

I'm pretty comfortable with myself now, I forget that I am gay. It's just part of me. I'm simply attracted to men and not women. I only remember that I'm 'different' when a tricky social situation presents itself and that is becoming rare these days.

Everyone, bottom line - you can choose whatever actions you like but you don't choose your sexual preference.

Here's food for thought tho - I think sexuality is on a scale. Most people can be clearly categorized, some people however are a little more confusing. Still whatever they do is just based on the way they are.

 

[Dastardly]

1) If it's natural and genetic, it should be on a downturn (because breeding would phase it out slightly). Not gone entirely, of course, but certainly not as widespread.

2) Not all "choices" we make are conscious. No one's really arguing it's a "choice," as much as they're arguing that the reasons are highly psychological. This explains some odd phenomena, like how an otherwise normal guy suddenly adores the attention he gets by talking in a higher, more nasal voice and referring to his buddies as "girlfriend!" all the time--that's not genetic, it's psychological.

3) There are just as many and just as likely explanations surrounding the psychological roots of such behavior. People just shy away from them because it might lead to the idea that it's a "problem" to be "fixed," instead of being able to just admit it's a psychologically-influenced process that's irreversible in nearly all cases. Genes remove responsibility, that's all.

4) "Oh, over half of identical twins that are separated from birth also share the same sexual orientation!" Okay. What you should really be asking is why the other half doesn't. If it's genetic, it's genetic. Should be 100% in cases of identical twins, or pretty near. It's nowhere close.

1.) The amount of people who claim to be exclusively homosexual is usually cited variously between 2-4%. That's not a significant number of people, and there is some preliminary data that suggests male homosexuality may be genetically linked to maternal fertility.[footnote]http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041012/full/news041011-5.html[/footnote]

2.) Yes people are arguing it's a conscious choice. I really don't how enjoying the attention eccentricity brings turns into liking private butt sex though. Nor does it really address all the gay people who follow societal norms.

3.) People have already brought up the "if it's genetic, shouldn't we fix it" argument. I really don't see how genetics removes more responsibility than the people arguing that its decided by your childhood life or other environmental factors. You don't choose your parents.

4.) Epigenetics, my friend. There are a myriad of diseases we know are heavily influenced by genetics but don't show up 100% the way you would expect. Mendelian genetics are a nice place for students to start, but they're not the best at describing humans and far too much emphasis is placed on them. It's bad pedagogy.

I'm not attempting to make all-encompassing arguments here, and I'm presenting some ideas held by others but not by myself. My only pay-off in this scenario is that there's plenty of reason to believe there is a strong psychological component to sexual orientation. After all, I don't see anyone arguing that excessive sexual attraction to lawn furniture is genetic, yet there are tons of people out there in that exact state.

It's this "all or nothing" crap that I think leads to most of the shit arguments. It's because both sides clearly have an agenda, and in order to further that agenda they must be 100% right. It must either be a completely psychological abnormality--in which case we can treat them like pedophiles, I guess, is what people are thinking?--or it must be completely genetic--in which case we can treat them like a minority group, or somesuch?--and neither side is willing to admit the other influences anything.

People cite animals all the time when talking about the inevitability of instinct and attraction, etc., but they fail to recognize that we, as people, have a far more complex social structure than any other animal. In addition to the fact that, as a species, we have the rare ability to not follow every single instinct, we're also subject to far more variables in our upbringing. These play a pivotal role in the development of our attractions.

I'm just wishing either side of these tired debates would recognize that there can be genetic and psychological factors, of equal weight, that determine this. The balance between them can be different for each person. But instead of real compromise, each side will just say, "Well fine, it's 99% my side and 1% their side, in 99% of cases!" and pretend like that solves it.

 

[Palademon]

Yes, but you make it sound as if we truly do not have any choice in what we believe. I'm sorry, my friend, but that's just a total load of bull. I guarantee you that any Christian, any one that's a true honest Christian, has questioned God, often at one of the most traumatic points in their lives. When they come through, their faith is unquestioned, and stronger too. I'll also guarantee you that any atheist worth his salt has questioned the idea of God, and chosen not to believe. Same with many other religious groups. Maybe certain people are predisposed towards certain beliefs, but we still choose what to believe. If we didn't have the power to choose what to believe, then we would be utterly stripped of our humanity. It's one of the things that seperates us from animals.

Fine, I give up. There's no way to make you see my point of view.

But I as an atheist was one day asked whether or not I believe in God. I thought about it and then said no, because it isn't something that jumps out at me to say yes. Any solutions anyone comes up wiht is based on their own personal logic and what makes most sense to them. Therefore, I believe that we don't choose our beliefs our subconscious does. We may choose whether or not to act upon them, we may choose to challenge them, but whatever answer we find is not our choice. And the difference between us and animals is that we can have more meaningful thought, and do things that aren't just instinct. Just because belief isn't an option doesn't mean I'm saying it's based on instinct.