Boy Scouts Accepting Gays Now

[Baneat]

...would it be such a bad thing if Boy Scouts went out of business? Seriously, what relevance do they have to modern life?

All of the general skills supposedly taught by boy scouts (leadership, self-confidence, etc) can be learned in other ways...

[snip]...so who are you to say that we would be better off without the BSA?

As you can clearly see from the text you yourself quoted, I didn't say that at all. Seriously, can anyone on this board respond to my posts without making a strawman argument out of them?

Why is this site's forum so obsessed with that term?

Because we get annoyed by people who waste our time arguing against something that we never claimed?

Nah it was horrible communication on your part. It wasn't even a stretch to infer that from what you said.

It absolutely was a stretch. People need to learn the difference between "not support" and "oppose". The two are not at all the same thing.

I know what I said. It appears that you do not. The correct response in that situation is to ask what I mean, not wildly speculate and jump to conclusions based on your emotional response to your fear that your tribe might be being criticised.

Now kindly stop wasting my time.

The irony of this is astounding

 

[positiveParadox]

(Why is it that whenever a post deals with sexuality it gets boosted to the front page?)
This is a step in the right direction. But how big of a step? What I really want to see is how the BSA reacts to homophobia. Some homophobe harasses a gay member of a troop. What happens? If we start seeing cases of homophobia ignored, then the BSA has barely moved at all. But if they react properly and deal with the source of homophobia properly, then maybe there is hope for America yet.

 

[Souplex]

So next will they allow women to join? And maybe the girl scouts will accept male members. It's a private club, can't they decide who can and can't join?

It accepts government funding.

 

[BaronWasteland]

So next will they allow women to join? And maybe the girl scouts will accept male members. It's a private club, can't they decide who can and can't join?

Of course they can. In the same way that any organisation has the right to discriminate against any group, just most of them won't do it openly due to public backlash. It may be that the higher-ups in Boy Scouts may have genuinely decided that allowing individual scout leaders to make their own choices in regards to banning any gay person whatsoever is the best policy, or, more likely in my opinion, they simply don't wish to fall victim to a public backlash. You are absolutely correct when you say that, as a private club, they have the right to decide who can and cannot join. But they chose this. In response to societal pressure, perhaps, but it was still their own free will. As mentioned, individual troop leaders still have the right to allow or not allow gays into the boy scouts. It is a private club, and it is up to them.

 

[Vuliev]

I was in Cubs as a kid, the junior version of the Scouts, and I - like many others - left because of the bullying and violence.

What you're touting as leadership experience seems to translate for many young men as power over those weaker. Whenever there was some crossover exercise with the older and larger Scouts, they'd beat the crap out of us. Now I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone, but certainly everyone I know who has joined the organisation at the various age brackets has experienced harassment and some degree of violence. They (and I) left not because it was doing nothing for us but because it was a fucking miserable experience. Giving the average teenage boy power over smaller children is just begging for trouble.

I'm truly sorry for what happened to you and your friends--it's inexcusable. But (and I know that I'm going to sound like an ass for saying this) everyone involved should have been reported to your regional council, because they're usually quick to jump on cases like this. Abuse is grounds for immediate dismissal from Scouts; unfortunately, unless higher-ups are called in, enforcement of that is normally left up to the individual troops, which can lead to cases like yours. Were the incidents ever reported to the Scoutmaster/Cubmaster? (I'm assuming they were, but I just want to make sure.)

To an extent, I agree with what you're saying--giving anyone unchecked power, let alone young men, is going to go downhill fast. But put them in leadership positions with proper adult/mentor guidance, and it becomes a positive thing.

 

[Tanis]

It's about time.

Next they need to lift the ban on atheists.

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Of course they allow atheists in scouts. You can be any religion. I was in scouts for years, and there was no "test" or anything for religion. We had meetings at a catholic school's gymnasium, but that's the only way religion ever came into play in my troop.

If I recall correctly, they still have bans on atheists, but it isn't really enforced in several areas. I was raised Mormon but around 9-10 (just a little while after my baptism unfortunately) deconverted, moving towards deism and finally atheism. I was fully allowed (read: forced by parents) to be a scout. It suprised me to when I read it, but apparently exclusion of atheists is a policy they have.

 

[TAGM]

I was only in the beavers then I quit because the whole thing seemed gay.

...Mabye now American scouts will be able to quit for the same reason! PAHAHAHAHA


sidenote, Ian Hislop did a show on the history of the Scouts called 'Scouting for Boys' very interesting stuff!

Har har. I quit at about Scout level - they kinda kicked me out for a few weeks for "lack of being involved" or something, and the mental stress got to me (I was a weird kid with a massive guilt complex type thing, shoot me) so I took the opportunity to never come back. I was getting sick of being locked in the equipment cupboard anyway. (No, really, they did that. Like, a lot.)

Still! Memories aside, I may well have to have a look at that show. So, yeah, thanks for that. :3

 

[OneTwoThreeBlast]

So next will they allow women to join? And maybe the girl scouts will accept male members. It's a private club, can't they decide who can and can't join?

While I see what you're saying and am supportive of the rights of private citizens and "clubs" to do as they wish (within the bounds of the law), there are two very important points to keep in mind when it comes to this particular organization: (1) they receive government support (though, it is important to stress, they do not receive direct federal funding or "taypayers' money"), and (2) a group of such size, significance, and which directly works to affect children should expect to be held to account in the court of public opinion. Just as a private club has the right to exclude, private citizens have the right to take actions in the court of public opinion to affect change on the organization's policies.

OT: As others have noted, this is a nice first step, but far from enough.

 

[The Funslinger]

So are we allowed to make jokes about sashes and ascots? I don't know if I will provoke a shitstorm, but I kind of want to...

OT: And there was much rejoicing.

Well they won't need any help sewing on their badges, and their knowledge of treating sore areas will probably help them earn some kind of first aid badge.

*flees*

 

[Zen Toombs]

Meh, seems bizarre this is an issue, the only reason i can see for homosexuals not being scout leaders is the (entirely wrong) belief that being gay has something to do with being a pedo.

There's also the SLIGHTLY more reasonable "2 gay scouts in a tent would be like putting a boy scout and a girl scout in a tent", as well as the fact that many troops are funded by churches which don't like gays (not a solid argument, seeing as this would merely allow troops to choose wether or not to allow gay scouts and leaders).

In addition, I did not realize how much this thread would explode in my absence.

 

[Furioso]

Spoiler: Snip

...would it be such a bad thing if Boy Scouts went out of business? Seriously, what relevance do they have to modern life?

All of the general skills supposedly taught by boy scouts (leadership, self-confidence, etc) can be learned in other ways...

...yet I have not seen a single organization that does it as well as Scouts. None. The only equivalent experience to leading a patrol or troop is being a sports team captain or major club leader, and guess what? Those that take those non-Scout responsibilities on are largely either those with the innate talent and drive to lead--or they bring their experience from leading in Scouts. Simply jumping into a leadership position isn't the most effective way to learn leadership. Building self-confidence, self-reliance, and the ability to trust teammates are cornerstones, and those skills "irrelevant to 90% of the population" happen to be rather effective at building those.

Speaking of those "irrelevant" skills: as an Eagle Scout, I'll admit that I haven't had to use my wilderness survival skills yet--and that's pretty much all that I haven't used since I left Scouting. What I have used, though?
[ul]
[li]First aid (in my case, sprained ankle, broken arm, broken foot, deep laceration (glass), second degree burns (boiling water), and probably more that I've forgotten about)[/li]
[li]fire building[/li]
[li]water rescue[/li]
[li]plant identification[/li]
[li]orienteering (map-reading, compass use)[/li]
[li]basic carpentry/construction/metalwork (and all the tool use that comes with it: axe, hand saws, hammer, awl, knife, whetstone, power saws, power drill, Dremel, and plenty more)[/li]
[li]sewing[/li]
[li]cooking[/li]
[li]proper use of gas appliances[/li]
[li]proper care/handling of firearms (and the knowledge/respect that comes with)[/li]
[/ul]and on and on. And that's just the hands-on stuff.

Is Scouting for every young man? No. I've seen that firsthand--during my time in Scouting, my troop had a number of guys drop out because it simply wasn't doing anything for them. But the appeal is broad enough to keep millions of Scouts actively engaged of their own free will, so who are you to say that we would be better off without the BSA?

Seriously? The scouts do all that? I wish my parents had kept me in the scouts as a kid, I could use a lot of those skills. (I am aware that becoming an Eagle Scout takes a lot of dedication, study, etc)

 

[OneTwoThreeBlast]

Still no fucking atheists allowed. But yeah, fuck them, go Woodcraft motherfuckers, that's what I did as a kid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodcraft_Folk

That said it changed for when my sister did it because there were different people running it and at her camps the parents just liked to go off and smoke a shitload of weed.

I would totally join a group if it was called the "Woodcraft Motherfuckers," even if their main mission was killing kittens.

And I LOVE kittens!

Alas, my excitement was immediately dampened by the next sentence, in which it was noted that the group is, in fact, called Woodland Folk.

Damn. Maybe I'll just start calling myself a Woodland ************ anyway.

Or maybe not. Seems like it could be easily misconstrued as an alternate name for "backwoods incest enthusiast."

 

[Vuliev]

Seriously? The scouts do all that? I wish my parents had kept me in the scouts as a kid, I could use a lot of those skills. (I am aware that becoming an Eagle Scout takes a lot of dedication, study, etc)

Yep! Even better, you can learn all that without getting Eagle, though it would mean staying active in the troop until you're 18 (and at that point, you might as well go for Eagle anyway.)

 

[afroebob]

Good, Boy Scouts are a very good group for many young boys. There discrimination policies always urked me but overall they are a pretty moral and upstanding group and I'm glad they are finally letting everyone in despite their sexual preferences.

Personally I would have loved to stay in the Scouts but my group was lead by a few irritable middle aged mothers and who did nothing but gossip during meetings and we never did any activities during the two years I was involved. However, in most places this isn't the case.

 

[Terminate421]

Boy Scouts usually accepted anyone. They had the right to deny people but get this, if a troop denied any parent's kid because he was gay, that troop would be done for. They'd never recruit another cub scout ever again.

(I am an Eagle Scout)

 

[Terminate421]

snip)

The skills are fantastic to have knowledge for. (I for one have plenty of experience in fishing and most of what he said) But putting "Eagle Scout" on your resume? That skyrockets your chance for a job.

If you join the military, it helps get you ranked up much faster.