"But it's not natural!"

[Daystar Clarion]

"It's not natural."

This has been as the basis of many arguments (especially regarding homosexuality) and, for me at least, seems very hypocritical and sometimes even completely wrong (bear with me, I'll try and explain).

Humans 'defy nature' every single day, millions of people are alive who would have otherwise died if not for that pesky medical science. We fly hundreds of thousands of miles every year, what? You thought only animals with wings could fly? Poppycock! We've shown that blasted pidgeon who's boss! We grow food (plant and otherwise) in quantities far beyond what is capable in a natural environment. I'm sure many of you can offer other examples of 'defying nature'.

Now, to the other part of my argument. Everything we are and everything we will ever be is because of nature. We are never 'defying nature' because nature allowed humans to develop to a point where we can do all the things stated above, 'defying nature' would mean that we could simply ignore elements of it, which we all know is impossible. We can't ignore gravity, no matter how hard we want to. We adapt to nature, we develop the tools necessary to get around these things, which is wholly permitted by nature.

I know this argument doesn't seem particularly refined, and you're welcome to criticise my thought process where you see fit. What is your opinion on the topic of 'defying nature'?

 

[Calcium]

I don't know if there's anything I could add other than... Agreeal? Agreement? Well, basically I agree and don't feel there's much more to discuss after you summed it up like that. I've always thought "It's not natural" arguments were pretty poor.

 

[Avatar Roku]

I agree. I've always seen the "unnatural" argument as the higher-sounding equivalent to plugging one's ears and saying "la la la, I can't hear you"

 

[TeeBs]

Any argument against homosexuality and gay marriage is going to be weak because they are all founded on traditional thinking. Essentially the difference between someone who supports homosexuality and someone who doesn't its the former listens to his science teacher and the latter listens to his grandparents.

 

[Ladette]

I'm fighting the urge to start spouting Gurren Lagann quotes. It's....very.....difficult.....

It's our nature to adapt, and until we can bend time and space to our will and ignore the laws of the universe then everything we do is just us adapting.

 

[Popido]

Its been a while since we had pedophile thread.

Carry on.

 

[ChaoticKraus]

I know, i'm kind of pissed when people use that argument. Especially when talking about crops grown with GMO techniques. Thats probably the only way to make enough food to sustain the whole world.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Its been a while since we had pedophile thread.

Carry on.

Social attitudes are also a product of nature. Humans, as a community, are far more productive when they don't have injuries (physical or otherwise). Being sexually exploited at a young age will most likely effect a child in a very negative way. This is bad, hence, we dislike it and shun it.

I'm not getting too deep into this topic, simply because I'm not qualified enough to have any ideas that haven't already been stated (and stated a lot better).

 

[DefunctTheory]

When we say we 'Defy Nature,' we are usually referring to our ability to do things that no other organism can. Nature can sustain nuclear reaction: organisms shouldn't be able to. nature can forge steel and raise mountains: organisms shouldn't be able to do this.

So really, we aren't defying nature: We're just stealing her thunder.

EDIT: As for social issues that 'defy nature,' we're usually just talking about things that are negative/give nothing to the species. From a biological (Reproductive is maybe a better word) stand point, for example, homosexuals provide NOTHING (Well, with the help of science they can now).

 

[Popido]

Its been a while since we had pedophile thread.

Carry on.

Social attitudes are also a product of nature. Humans, as a community, are far more productive when they don't have injuries (physical or otherwise). Being sexually exploited at a young age will most likely effect a child in a very negative way. This is bad, hence, we dislike it and shun it.

I'm not getting too deep into this topic, simply because I'm not qualified enough to have any ideas that haven't already been stated (and stated a lot better).

And having some guy forcefully inserting hes penis in your butt isnt?

Just joking.

Yeah. Seems like you cant yet say pedo without having witch-hunt occuring. Theres still a long way to walk.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

When we say we 'Defy Nature,' we are usually referring to our ability to do things that no other organism can. Nature can sustain nuclear reaction: organisms shouldn't be able to. nature can forge steel and raise mountains: organisms shouldn't be able to do this.

So really, we aren't defying nature: We're just stealing her thunder.

EDIT: As for social issues that 'defy nature,' we're usually just talking about things that are negative/give nothing to the species. From a biological (Reproductive is maybe a better word) stand point, for example, homosexuals provide NOTHING (Well, with the help of science they can now).

Indeed, this is the only relevant argument I see, but then again, it's easily rebutted. A lot of the things we do are ultimately useless at first glance. Art, Video games, many creative outlets. The human mind likes these things however, and we respond well to 'ooh likey' stimulus. If we're happy, then we live better lives and actually have a reason to get up in the morning. If a person's 'ooh likey' stimulus is a same sex partner or a desire to attract a same sex partner, they strive to work harder, thus contributing to society (in their small way). Just because they can't have children, doesn't mean that homosexuality is ultimately useless.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Its been a while since we had pedophile thread.

Carry on.

Social attitudes are also a product of nature. Humans, as a community, are far more productive when they don't have injuries (physical or otherwise). Being sexually exploited at a young age will most likely effect a child in a very negative way. This is bad, hence, we dislike it and shun it.

I'm not getting too deep into this topic, simply because I'm not qualified enough to have any ideas that haven't already been stated (and stated a lot better).

And having some guy forcefully inserting hes penis in your butt isnt?

Just joking.

Yeah. Seems like you cant yet say pedo without having witch-hunt occuring. Theres still a long way to walk.

I agree that there are many topics we should be able to discuss openly, and be able to apply intelligent debate. Unfortunately, many people are so entrenched in what is 'normal' and what is 'wrong' that they don't stop to question why we see these things as wrong.

 

[Hiikuro]

My initial thought is: Define nature.

Nature seems to be defined as an abstract concept and a vague grouping of entities and ideas. Every human will have a different opinion on what 'nature' is, and therefore either include or exclude parts of what humans do as 'nature'. In essence the argument "It is not natural" then doesn't really mean much.

Essentially, the only thing "it is not natural" conveys is that the individual that expressed it doesn't include a particular action as his or her definition of nature.

 

[Nova Helix]

Heart surgery.

A person sticking their hand into another persons chest an it helping is as unnatural as you can get. After you bring that up who ever was arguing "it's unnatural" starts arguing something different.

 

[DefunctTheory]

When we say we 'Defy Nature,' we are usually referring to our ability to do things that no other organism can. Nature can sustain nuclear reaction: organisms shouldn't be able to. nature can forge steel and raise mountains: organisms shouldn't be able to do this.

So really, we aren't defying nature: We're just stealing her thunder.

EDIT: As for social issues that 'defy nature,' we're usually just talking about things that are negative/give nothing to the species. From a biological (Reproductive is maybe a better word) stand point, for example, homosexuals provide NOTHING (Well, with the help of science they can now).

Indeed, this is the only relevant argument I see, but then again, it's easily rebutted. A lot of the things we do are ultimately useless at first glance. Art, Video games, many creative outlets. The human mind likes these things however, and we respond well to 'ooh likey' stimulus. If we're happy, then we live better lives and actually have a reason to get up in the morning. If a person's 'ooh likey' stimulus is a same sex partner or a desire to attract a same sex partner, they strive to work harder, thus contributing to society (in their small way). Just because they can't have children, doesn't mean that homosexuality is ultimately useless.

Ultimately true, and I'd hate for people to think I agree with that view point entirely.

I'm merely providing a field in which the statement is true.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

My initial thought is: Define nature.

Nature seems to be defined as an abstract concept and a vague grouping of entities and ideas. Every human will have a different opinion on what 'nature' is, and therefore either include or exclude parts of what humans do as 'nature'. In essence the argument "It is not natural" then doesn't really mean much.

Essentially, the only thing "it is not natural" conveys is that the individual that expressed it doesn't include a particular action as his or her definition of nature.

The very basic concept of 'nature'

"You're a vegetarian, we are an omnivorous species, so not eating meat makes being a vegetarian unnatural"

Things that seem to contradict very basic human biological characteristics, i.e. homosexuality, pedophilia etc.

This is before we even get into culutural norms, community behaviour, traditonal value vs new thinking etc. It's all very daunting and far beyond my intellect to analyse.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

When we say we 'Defy Nature,' we are usually referring to our ability to do things that no other organism can. Nature can sustain nuclear reaction: organisms shouldn't be able to. nature can forge steel and raise mountains: organisms shouldn't be able to do this.

So really, we aren't defying nature: We're just stealing her thunder.

EDIT: As for social issues that 'defy nature,' we're usually just talking about things that are negative/give nothing to the species. From a biological (Reproductive is maybe a better word) stand point, for example, homosexuals provide NOTHING (Well, with the help of science they can now).

Indeed, this is the only relevant argument I see, but then again, it's easily rebutted. A lot of the things we do are ultimately useless at first glance. Art, Video games, many creative outlets. The human mind likes these things however, and we respond well to 'ooh likey' stimulus. If we're happy, then we live better lives and actually have a reason to get up in the morning. If a person's 'ooh likey' stimulus is a same sex partner or a desire to attract a same sex partner, they strive to work harder, thus contributing to society (in their small way). Just because they can't have children, doesn't mean that homosexuality is ultimately useless.

Ultimately true, and I'd hate for people to think I agree with that view point entirely.

I'm merely providing a field in which the statement is true.

Oh, no, of course, I know you were only offering a reason people believe it to be unnatural, not that you thought it personally.

 

[Keith Keiser]

Only that which you cannot do is unnatural. I heard a famous philosopher said something like that.