California Gay Marriage Ban Lifted

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CLime

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Aug 5, 2010
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MoeTheMonk said:
The issue is not what's important, what matters is that a single judge can overrule the majority with one swing of the gavel.
If those stupid, misguided, close-minded, bigoted idiots want themselves a gay-marriage ban, then they should have it without worrying that ONE judge with contrary opinion is their equal in terms of the law.
No. Prop 8 should never have been voted on to begin with. This is why kids need to pay attention in History class, so they don't get misguided ideas about what democracy really is. The United States is infinitely more democratic now than it was when the Constitution was ratified.

I would be curious how many people oppose this kind of judicial intervention while also decrying the federal government deciding state issues. If 51.5% of Californians call tell the other 49.5% how to live their lives, even if there is no demonstrable harm posed by the issue at hand, then all the coastal states should be able to legislate for the rest of the country, as they hold an even greater majority of the national population.

American democracy does not mean 51 out of 100 people get to band together and curbstomp the other 49. Thank god (any god) for sensible folks like Judge Walker. Not all opinions are valid.
 

vento 231

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Yay! Now they can be miserable just like everyone else. I honestly don't give a damn, it honestly is alien to me, but I dont care
 

DanDeFool

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lordbuxton said:
RebellionXXI said:
lordbuxton said:
Furious Styles said:
The title says it all, but here's a link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/aug/04/proposition-8-gay-marriage-california?CMP=AFCYAH

Basically, a judge found the ban was unconstitutional.

Personally, I am pretty glad they've done this. It's a victory for civil rights and just generally great (speaking as a brit).

Thoughts? I know you're all reasonably enlightened so I can't imagine much hate for this news.
This is absolute bull.

To support gay marrige is to accept a mental disorder as "acceptable".

We should be trying to cure this disorder rather than accepting it as a part of life.

Hmm, all-one-word-all-lowercase handle with only four posts?

http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/Luckybug76/Picture1-7.png

That said, I'm glad this went through. Just because homosexuality makes some (even most) people uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong, and doesn't mean it's okay to treat gays and lesbians like second-class citizens.

And talking about developing 'cures' for any kind of psychological 'abnormality' is a dangerous proposition for everyone.

For example, here's an article talking about the discovery of a so-called 'faith gene'.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/16378.php

So, technically, we could start research into gene therapy to 'cure' people like the congregation of the Westboro Baptist Church, who are arguably more dangerous and hated than homosexuals. But why stop there? Why not bomb the middle-east with a biological agent that does nothing but disable this 'faith gene' in its victims, and all your worries about radical Islam are officially over! Sure, you annihilate an entire faith and thousands of years of culture, but because the majority of the world wants it, it must be alright!

Frankly, I'd rather not live in a world where people are 'cured' of things like homosexuality. Escapists, remember, before you support something radical like this, always take a moment to imagine how your opposition would use it against YOU, because they probably will.
Wow, typical liberal blowing what i say out of absoulte reason. I mean a faith gene ?

Gene therapy does need more research, but it still does not justify accepting homosexuality as normal.
Wow, typical conservative troll thinking they've invalidated my opinion trolling by completely misconstruing my entire opinion and acting as if science doesn't exist!

I think we're done here.
 

ChazzBurger

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lordbuxton said:
ChazzBurger said:
lordbuxton said:
The Lost Big Boss said:
MrFluffy-X said:
51.5% voted against it, 48.5% voted for it? why did people vote if it didnt matter?
Because we live in a Republic and not a Democracy. If we were in a Democracy than it would be majority rule all, all the time, aka tyranny of the many, but thats not the case in America.
MrFluffy-X said:
lordbuxton said:
Furious Styles said:
The title says it all, but here's a link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/aug/04/proposition-8-gay-marriage-california?CMP=AFCYAH

Basically, a judge found the ban was unconstitutional.

Personally, I am pretty glad they've done this. It's a victory for civil rights and just generally great (speaking as a brit).

Thoughts? I know you're all reasonably enlightened so I can't imagine much hate for this news.
This is absolute bull.

To support gay marrige is to accept a mental disorder as "acceptable".

We should be trying to cure this disorder rather than accepting it as a part of life.
mate they are going to slaughter you, but i think its a fair opinion...
Right, ill cast the first stone...

Who are you to decide who should and shouldn't love each other? who is anyone to decide for another person who they can and can't be with. It's fuck heads like you that bring the world down, it's fuck heads like you that feel you have the authority to tell my family members how to live their life. You sir can fuck right off.
No son, you can fuck off.

Love is a chemical, it's pathetic to try and romanticise it.

As a species we should be trying to constantly improve our selves, removing genetic mutations and developing natural immunity to disease.

So it's "fuck heads" like you that are crippling the advancement of the human race.
Human race?

Or Aryan?
Human, the nazi's were to caught of in racism and aesthetic qualities.
Racism is discrimitory, and so is your view of disablilites or homosexuality

I can quite easily place you as one of the men in the Pianist pushing the man in the wheelchair off the balcony
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
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Whatever, just wash your hands.
RebelRising said:
Like Dags90 said before, I'll keep my enthusiasm bottled up until I'm sure that this can't be overturned for sure. Still...YIPPIE-KY-YAY!
why I cant help but notice what an attractive smile you have
 

lordbuxton

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Bon_Clay said:
Lordbuxton you still haven't replied to what I said, and btw I don't think you should be banned for what you have said so far, if you are just presenting opinions and not mindlessly insulting that's fine.
To sum up my position: Homosexuality is not detrimental to humans or many other species. It can help cut down on overpopulation which would be very beneficial and provide extra parents for children without them.
If marriage were a religious rite then people not following the religious rules should leave them along and find their own religion. One problem, CHRISTIANITY DID NOT INVENT MARRIAGE. NO RELIGION DID. Marriage existed completely separate from any religion for a long time, its was several hundred years before Christians started doing anything special involving their religion in marriages. And plenty of other religions have their own religious ceremonies, what if that religion didn't condemn homosexuality? That's not at all fair or equal and would clearly just be favouring one specific religion.
The legal aspects of marriage exist for taxing and census purposes, not for protecting religious or social institutions, anyone who claims that is ignorant of historical facts and is trying to rewrite them for their own benefit.
As for the overruling aspect, sometimes people are too stupid to vote for stuff, when it comes to human rights, then need to be equal, if the majority is discriminating unfairly and without any basis in fact, they are wrong.
Sorry if i missed you, too many questions to answer.

At least you argue a point based on logic and not morality.

I agree there is a problem with population. I could suggest killing the geneticaly inferior off, but im sure that were stur up a massive shit storm up on here. We should aim to expand to the stars and leave this dieing world, within at least 100 or so years. There is no harm in removeing Genetic abnormalities.
 

MGlBlaze

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Sir John The Net Knight said:
On the other hand, I have a major problem with legislation from the bench being used to overrule the voters. This is not the only issue that this happens on and in California this sort of thing happens constantly. Certainly there must be some better way we can bring everyone involved to the table and come to a reasonable compromise. I don't particularly agree with the outcome of the vote, but I agree less with judges creating law when their position is to interpret it. It pollutes the power of the people's vote. And that is really the only power that most of us have.
You have a point, but these are human beings we're talking about. Some of us can be ignorant egotistical fucks who will never admit fault. That and humans are social creatures so we have a habit of bunching with people we like or identify with and take their opinions as our own as well. If this sort of intervention never happened I think we'd be worse off for it. To quote Men in Black; "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals."

Furious Styles said:
lordbuxton said:
Your suggesting the human race would be better with serious mental disorders like austism in the gene pool ?
Dude, quote people. It'll get their attention so they can argue against your bullshit more effectively.

Also, yes, autism should be kept in the gene pool.

Not that its genetic in any way shape or form, you misinformed little man.
Thank you, Sir.
However, I would like to mention that there are studies going on to see if there is a genetic element to Autistic Spectrum Disorders. I've taken part in one since every male in my immediate family seems to have an ASD.
 

Woodsey

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Aug 9, 2009
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lordbuxton said:
MrFluffy-X said:
lordbuxton said:
Furious Styles said:
The title says it all, but here's a link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-adams-blog/2010/aug/04/proposition-8-gay-marriage-california?CMP=AFCYAH

Basically, a judge found the ban was unconstitutional.

Personally, I am pretty glad they've done this. It's a victory for civil rights and just generally great (speaking as a brit).

Thoughts? I know you're all reasonably enlightened so I can't imagine much hate for this news.
This is absolute bull.

To support gay marrige is to accept a mental disorder as "acceptable".

We should be trying to cure this disorder rather than accepting it as a part of life.
mate they are going to slaughter you, but i think its a fair opinion...
The lefties ?

*laughs

To answer another point, im not being ironic, it's proven mental disorder.

You can't argue fact.
Now I'm intrigued.

I want links to numerous sources for that "fact", from several different studies conducted by different people.

Oh, and:

lordbuxton said:
Your suggesting the human race would be better with serious mental disorders like austism in the gene pool ?
Alright then. If you have a child and they suffer from a mental defect, I'll put the gun in your hand so that you can get on with furthering the progression of the human race. Then we'll take you down to the doctors to get your wee-willy-winky cut off so you can't keep holding us back.
 

Dexiro

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I thought you guys were better than to argue over something like this.

Be totally honest. The only reason anyone is against gay marriage is because they find it gross.
The second the topic is brought up you all become evangelical Christians and are completely hostile towards other opinions, right before you go and argue as an Athiest in a different topic.
Just grow up, gay people are no different than you and me so lets treat them that way.
 

Wayneguard

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Jun 12, 2010
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PhiMed said:
I thought the law was a bad idea, but I have one question to ask. You both say it's a breach of the Constitution: which part? I don't think the Constitution or any of its ammendments have anything to say about marriage whatsoever. In fact, to the contrary, the Tenth Ammendment pretty specifically states that any power not specifically granted to the federal government defaults to the states or to individuals.
I believe that privacy arguments derive their legitimacy from the 9th amendment. Childbirth, marriage, and other private, in-home issues belong to the rights not enumerated in the Constitution category; but, are nonetheless protected.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Soooo... uh...

When do we get around to getting the other 40 or so states out of the Dark Ages? I assume that this'll speed up any and all state constitutional amendments, but still...

Also, trolls be trollin' rather quickly on this. That was fast.
 

lordbuxton

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I don't view genetics in black and white, but realy, in some cases there is no arguments for it.
In some there is.

Also im not trolling. And i have broken no forum rules.
 

Therumancer

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Truthfully I'm getting tired of the entire thing, truthfully I think what we need are laws in place to prevent constant legal appeals and people trying the same thing again and again after every failure... in any case, not just this one.

Simply put, a judge overturns it today and "tomorrow" it will be right back there again, until the Supreme Court of the US makes a ruling, and even then it's not likely to stick. As "awesome" as it is for some judge to make a ruling and invoke the powerful image of The Constitution, it's important to note that it's simply political posturing since it's pretty easy to tell that the spirit in which The Constitution was intended is far differant from how people choose to interpet it today. I very much doubt the founding fathers who wrote it would agree with the Judge in this case going by the numerous examples of their actual interpetation of the document that were left behind. For example their idea of what constitutioned a reasonable search and seizure, or "cruel and unusual" punishment are far differant from what people try and argue today. Given their support of institutions like slavery, torture, and other things I very much doubt they would have even supported the various rulings leading up to this.

The overall point here is that for all the power it's image invokes, anyone who chooses to use the term "constitutional" in a case like this really makes a bit of a joke of themselves to anyone who bothers to look at it.

Besides which, the issue here is and always has been money. As someone pointed out early on (I haven't read all the responses) the whole "gay marriage" issue isn't one related to human rights and freedom, but the pursuit of the all mighty dollar. All of the stuff the judge mentioned in regards to that ruling have absolutly nothing to do with the central issue at stake. As things have stood for a while, there is nothing preventing a couple of homosexuals from exchanging vows during a party, and swapping rings or whatever. The meaning of which is totally between them and the community (and whether other gays consider the people involved 'off limits' being committed to each other). The issue of a marriage liscence comes down to legal recognition of the married status, and that legal status is generally only relevent in filing paperwork for tax breaks and the like. The tax breaks afforded to a married couple exist based on the presumption that they will be starting a family and having children, something that will not happen with a gay couple (pregnancy is not possible). Yes it IS true that not all heterosexual couples have children, but that was the intent of the laws and what happens in most cases. With homosexuals those tax breaks ultimatly come down to them being given free money for being gay, and one of the reasons why so many states waffle on the issue is when the bill comes due (so to speak) and they realize how much revenue it's going to actually wind up costing them.

Even if I wasn't anti-gay men, I wouldn't support gay marriage (and over the years I've met a number of very pro-gay people who I've debated with whom agree with me on these points). 10-20 years ago when hospitals were refusing visiting rights to homosexual "life partners" and such and similar kinds of issues there was more defense for seeking gay marriage laws. However as time as gone on most of those issues have been addressed and policies have changed greatly.

Generally speaking this would only be a constitutional issue if the goverment was preventing gays from getting married at all, not simply refusing to legally recognize it for tax purposes and such. A case could be made if say we had the police busting gay marriages and arresting the people involved for having the ceremony, or arresting gays with matching rings, or claiming exclusivity to each other based on vows. That's not what this is, it's 100% financial and bureaucratic. The judge speaks well to the crowd, and I think a lot of people are still ignorant about this specific issue and what it's about, getting caught up in the intertia of other beliefs they might have followed.

My general opinion on homosexuals aside, I do sort of agree with an earlier poster that has mentioned that we should probably do something about the tax breaks for married couples in general, and remove the entire issue of "goverment recognition of marriage" from the table entirely, and only see such benefits provided when they have kids. That would end a lot of this, as well as removing the fair point that there are heterosexual couples that wind up exploiting the marriage benefits without ever having kids (though I do believe they are a minority of people).

As I said to begin with, I expect this is going to be tossed back and forth for quite a bit yet.

In the end, understand that for all the fancy politics and powerfu imagery, this isn't a human rights issue. It's a money issue. Whether your in favor of gay rights, against them, or don't care, as things stand now this ultimatly comes down to the simple issue of your tax money and whether you believe gay couples should pay less taxes than you (and have more money in their pocket) just for being gay. Dress it up, dance around it, or look at it through a carnival mirror, that is what it comes down to.
 

thethingthatlurks

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lordbuxton said:
Bon_Clay said:
Lordbuxton you still haven't replied to what I said, and btw I don't think you should be banned for what you have said so far, if you are just presenting opinions and not mindlessly insulting that's fine.
To sum up my position: Homosexuality is not detrimental to humans or many other species. It can help cut down on overpopulation which would be very beneficial and provide extra parents for children without them.
If marriage were a religious rite then people not following the religious rules should leave them along and find their own religion. One problem, CHRISTIANITY DID NOT INVENT MARRIAGE. NO RELIGION DID. Marriage existed completely separate from any religion for a long time, its was several hundred years before Christians started doing anything special involving their religion in marriages. And plenty of other religions have their own religious ceremonies, what if that religion didn't condemn homosexuality? That's not at all fair or equal and would clearly just be favouring one specific religion.
The legal aspects of marriage exist for taxing and census purposes, not for protecting religious or social institutions, anyone who claims that is ignorant of historical facts and is trying to rewrite them for their own benefit.
As for the overruling aspect, sometimes people are too stupid to vote for stuff, when it comes to human rights, then need to be equal, if the majority is discriminating unfairly and without any basis in fact, they are wrong.
Sorry if i missed you, too many questions to answer.

At least you argue a point based on logic and not morality.

I agree there is a problem with population. I could suggest killing the geneticaly inferior off, but im sure that were stur up a massive shit storm up on here. We should aim to expand to the stars and leave this dieing world, within at least 100 or so years. There is no harm in removeing Genetic abnormalities.
Lovely, your grammatical and spelling mistakes aside, you sound about as laughable as possible for a troll. You obviously have no understanding of genetics, so why don't you just drop it?
 

ReincarnatedFTP

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Sir John The Net Knight said:
CLime said:
MoeTheMonk said:
The issue is not what's important, what matters is that a single judge can overrule the majority with one swing of the gavel.
If those stupid, misguided, close-minded, bigoted idiots want themselves a gay-marriage ban, then they should have it without worrying that ONE judge with contrary opinion is their equal in terms of the law.
No. Prop 8 should never have been voted on to begin with. This is why kids need to pay attention in History class, so they don't get misguided ideas about what democracy really is. The United States is infinitely more democratic now than it was when the Constitution was ratified.

I would be curious how many people oppose this kind of judicial intervention while also decrying the federal government deciding state issues. If 51.5% of Californians call tell the other 49.5% how to live their lives, even if there is no demonstrable harm posed by the issue at hand, then all the coastal states should be able to legislate for the rest of the country, as they hold an even greater majority of the national population.

American democracy does not mean 51 out of 100 people get to band together and curbstomp the other 49. Thank god (any god) for sensible folks like Judge Walker. Not all opinions are valid.
You're assuming that the way the country is run is as perfect as you were told in school. It's sadly not and there are occasions when 51-49 votes happen, in fact far more than you might think. I don't agree with the outcome of the vote. But I do agree that the rule of law must stand. That does not mean that the law is not subject to change. But if it does not come from a mandate of the voters, then you will cause discourse and eventually revolt.
Not really.
By the "judicial activist" whining and your insinuations of revolt, there should have been a violent rebellion during Bush's election.
Considering Gore won the majority of people but the Court called it off.
America isn't a direct democracy.