Can (Internet) Piracy ever be Justified?

[Owyn_Merrilin]

If someone wants something they do not suddenly have the right to steal it because they will never have it.

On the contrary, they can steal it, not due to "rights", another ridiculous concept, but because... wait, I think someone else said it pretty well

The world isn't nice or fair. It just is.

Alright sweet

As you have failed to understand the conversation (as you weren't involved) I will show you your mistake:

I made the claim you are not entitled to commit piracy because you have bad luck. If you have the bad luck to be born so far from something and do not have the money to get to it that you will never have it, tough.

Entitlement is a concept created by the elitists on top to keep the average man down.

If someone wants something they do not suddenly have the right to steal it because they will never have it.

The world isn't nice or fair. It just is.

Theft (in English Common Law)

"A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". (Section 1)

Copyright infringement

Copyright infringement is the unauthorized or prohibited use of works under copyright, infringing the copyright holder's exclusive rights, such as the right to reproduce or perform the copyrighted work, or to make derivative works.

Please quit conflating them.

"The function of representation comes to grief when words lose their connections with things - in short, when language represents itself."
Mark Poster, The Mode Of Information

Says it all really.

Good day.

The disconnect is in your logic, not in my definitions; good day yourself.

 

[gardyna]

People made the claim about themselves, because they have the self knowledge to know they have done it. And by the way, you never did answer my question about youtube videos. Have you never watched a video that was put up by someone other than the copyright holder? have you never gone to youtube to look up a song? And if not youtube, then some other streaming video site? If you can say no to that question, I'm honestly puzzled at what you use the internet for.

A) You have pirated and therefore that is all the evidence you need that everyone in the world that uses the internet is a pirate? Your logic alludes me.

B) I don't use Youtube. I use my computer for MSN, writing my articles and playing my games.

Once again, you cannot provide any evidence at all and resort to 'because it just is' 'logic'.

http://www.tarkvaraliit.ee/UserFiles/.files/IDC%20Piracy%20Study%202009%20final%20report.pdf

go to page 7 to see a nice little graph (however this does not take into consideration youtube (which by what i gather from your previous posts you don't use)

I'd estimate (random guesing) that about 3 out of 5 people on the internet pirate copyrighted material in some shape or form. Piracy is a HUGE problem in the modern media and computer industry and should not be taken lightly couse it hurts the publishers retailers and developers(some of which are not in it for the "art"). my personal opinion of this matter is that pirating in 99,9% of cases is immoral and wrong(if a person who has copyright over the property says you are allowed to pirate his property go ahead but on other cases it's a NO.).

P.S. I'm not gona put myself on a high horse an say I have never pirated anything and I'm openly admiting to having even pirated 2 games (in both cases i regreted it so badly I went out and bought them legaly and am now keeping an eye on said developers so I can purchase their next product as soon as it comes out)

 

[ShakyFiend]

Considering piracy isnt really stealing in the usual sense (as Notch pointed out, you arnt actually taking a product, your copying it and taking that). Then I think it is justified in circumstances where the piratee has no other way of accessing the file. Someone living in eastern Estonia for example who has no access to a Gamestop, I would not have any problem with them pirating.

Otherwise, its just lazyness really, and its pretty much impossible to justify for anyone who can access the real copy.

 

[Penguin_Factory]

I generally don't go in for the "the evul corporate fatcats are charging too much, therefore I must pirate! Viva freedom!" argument, but there have been a handful of times when stuff really has been released at exorbitant prices.

For example, I'm an anime fan and I really want to get a Blu-Ray of the movie Wings of Honneamise. Unfortunately, the Blu-Ray was released for $80 dollars. Keep in mind this is a single movie, bot a box set or a series.

I haven't actually pirated this because I could still legally buy the old crappy DVD release, and I'm holding out hope that I might one day find a cheap copy of the Blu-Ray, but if someone else pirated it (and I gather that many people did) I couldn't really blame them. This is one of the very few instances where the "piracy as protest" idea holds any water for me.

The only other time I'll pirate is to get around region restrictions. When Silent Hill Shattered Memories came out I wanted to play the game early so badly that I modded my Wii and bought an American copy, but it turns out the mod chip wouldn't recognise the legit disc- it would, however, recognize a burned copy from the internet. Since I did actually pay for the game I don't feel bad about this.

 

[Agayek]

A husband and wife vaginally and anally rape and torture their eleven month old baby with a hammer over a period of several days, before then killing the newborn by bashing her skull in. They dispose of the corpse via a trash shoot. When asked why they committed the crimes they responded with: "Because it was fun." The women is currently serving a life sentence in my father's prison for, among other crimes, murder and rape.

Justify this for me.

P.S: Justify -

"To prove or show to be just, right, or reasonable.
B (1): to show to have had a sufficient legal reason (2) : to qualify (oneself) as a surety by taking oath to the ownership of sufficient property"

Justification is a completely subjective thing. I'm sure the duo you describe here felt fully justified in their actions, because "it was fun".

When someone does something, they have a reason to do it. When someone has a reason to do something, that action is justified to themselves.

Our legal system is based on the morals and ethics of our society. These are molded by a wide variety of factors, and since I really don't want to get into a debate about psychology and the cultural zeitgeist I'm not going to go into too much detail. The fact of the matter is, what societies value and/or find morally just is purely subjective. A great quasi-modern example is Nazi Germany. They felt perfectly justified in the systematic murder of 11,000,000+ individuals. Our society disagreed, and we say it was unjustified. Then we fought a war over it.

There is no objective "this is right/that is wrong" standard, or at least not one comprehensible by the human mind. If an individual feels an act was just, it is justified for them, regardless of what the act itself was.

 

[AWC Viper]

My stance on piracy is like someone stealing my car, but it being there in the morning.

 

[Sammi Costello]

I'm a big fan of many RPGs, such as WoD, D&D, Eclipse Phase etc, trust me, the list goes on for quite a while - Shadowrun - sorry, I'll stop now.

My point, is that, while I have an extensive collection of hard copy books, it just isn't pracical to carry all of these books back and forth to whereever we're gaming at. Sure, I could just take 1 or 2, but, instead, I got PDF copies of all the books that I own on my laptop, and now I just take my laptop.

I'm not saying it justifies piracy, I'm just saying that at least I paid for the original content first.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

"The function of representation comes to grief when words lose their connections with things - in short, when language represents itself."
Mark Poster, The Mode Of Information

Says it all really.

Good day.

lolwot

It says it all, if "it all" is "I have no idea how to justify my own position, here is a quote from someone else. Quoting an author makes me right. Althought I tend to just stop arguing when confronted with points I can't respond to and go off of tangents instead. You know, like this one"

The sad thing is, if he really does stick to his "Good day" and leave the thread, all we've managed to do is out-troll a troll. Where are the moderators this morning, anyway? I reported this guy for inflammatory remarks several times, and going back through his post history, he has a history of ad hominem attacks, despite having less than 100 posts to his name.

 

[llubtoille]

It's fairly easy to self-justify your own piracy, especially if you know you'd have not bought it either way,
but trying to justify it to someone who disagrees with piracy is fighting a loosing battle XD

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

The sad thing is, if he really does stick to his "Good day" and leave the thread, all we've managed to do is out-troll a troll. Where are the moderators this morning, anyway? I reported this guy for inflammatory remarks several times, and going back through his post history, he has a history of ad hominem attacks, despite having less than 100 posts to his name.

Yeah, I had some arguing with him last night too. It was kinda sad. I hate using the word "troll", but I swear he is. Nobody can be that dumb and hold such insane self-belief... right?

Look at the first three times he quoted me. He used inflammatory remarks specifically to get a rise out of me; that is the absolute definition of a troll.

 

[night_chrono]

words

Please answer this question then:

If it was the social norm for all forms of music and art to be freely exchanged, would you still be against it, and why?

 

[RoBi3.0]

This is kind of tough, because anyone under the age of 40 who says they've never pirated anything in their life is a liar.

Oh hi there. What's it like being psychic and knowing everything? Must be weird, being able to make such claims and know you're right.

Okay, so it's hyperbole. Very, very slight hyperbole.

Edit: Also, you mean to tell me that you have never once:

Downloaded a movie
Downloaded an episode of a TV show
Downloaded an MP3
Downloaded a videogame
borrowed and made a copy of a CD
Borrowed and made a copy of a videogame
Borrowed and ripped a CD
Borrowed and installed a DRM free videogame
Or
Made a mix tape?

Making a mix tape is not piracy. The license you get when you buy your music entitles you to as many backup copies as you care to make. The minute you start handing out mix tapes to people is where the line is crossed.

Besides just because someone has done something in the passed doesn't mean that regardless of wither they have discontinued, doing it they are never allowed to morally oppose it anymore.

Edit: OT stuff.

Personally I don't like piracy I refuse to do it, but I could care less what others on the internet are up to. If they want to be pirates more power to them, just please but make stupid accuses for yourselves.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

This is kind of tough, because anyone under the age of 40 who says they've never pirated anything in their life is a liar.

Oh hi there. What's it like being psychic and knowing everything? Must be weird, being able to make such claims and know you're right.

Okay, so it's hyperbole. Very, very slight hyperbole.

Edit: Also, you mean to tell me that you have never once:

Downloaded a movie
Downloaded an episode of a TV show
Downloaded an MP3
Downloaded a videogame
borrowed and made a copy of a CD
Borrowed and made a copy of a videogame
Borrowed and ripped a CD
Borrowed and installed a DRM free videogame
Or
Made a mix tape?

Making a mix tape is not piracy. The license you get when you buy your music entitles you to as many backup copies as you care to make. The minute you start handing out mix tapes to people is where the line is crossed.

Besides just because someone has done something in the passed doesn't mean that regardless of wither they have discontinued, doing it they are never allowed to morally oppose it anymore.

Well, you just hit on it; handing out the mix. Aside from a brief time in the late 90's/early 2000s, between the advent of CD burners and the advent of the MP3 Player, mix tapes are and have been generally made to be given away. Heck, even in that time period, there was a lot of sharing going on.

Edit: Also, that particular post wasn't about morality or legality. I made a statement to the effect that the rule against admitting to piracy was kind of tough to follow, because nearly everyone who has access to the internet has done it as some point, and Hive Mind starting trying to derail the thread by going "oh really, everyone?" He succeeded.

 

[Agayek]

Ya rly.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.281678-Can-Internet-Piracy-ever-be-Justified?page=3#11030763

What a seasoned debater.

That's actually kinda impressive. I'm somewhat sad I missed the epic troll being epic.

 

[RoBi3.0]

This is kind of tough, because anyone under the age of 40 who says they've never pirated anything in their life is a liar.

Oh hi there. What's it like being psychic and knowing everything? Must be weird, being able to make such claims and know you're right.

Okay, so it's hyperbole. Very, very slight hyperbole.

Edit: Also, you mean to tell me that you have never once:

Downloaded a movie
Downloaded an episode of a TV show
Downloaded an MP3
Downloaded a videogame
borrowed and made a copy of a CD
Borrowed and made a copy of a videogame
Borrowed and ripped a CD
Borrowed and installed a DRM free videogame
Or
Made a mix tape?

Making a mix tape is not piracy. The license you get when you buy your music entitles you to as many backup copies as you care to make. The minute you start handing out mix tapes to people is where the line is crossed.

Besides just because someone has done something in the passed doesn't mean that regardless of wither they have discontinued, doing it they are never allowed to morally oppose it anymore.

Well, you just hit on it; handing out the mix. Aside from a brief time in the late 90's/early 2000s, between the advent of CD burners and the advent of the MP3 Player, mix tapes are and have been generally made to be given away. Heck, even in that time period, there was a lot of sharing going on.

What is your point?