Can we please go back to having fun?

Recommended Videos

XDSkyFreak

New member
Mar 2, 2013
154
0
0
I've been keeping myself quiet and refrained from comenting on the whole controversy of the past month. So now that things are quieting down (well, partially) I though I could try to post my views on the matter and hopefully not get dogpilled or labeled in any way. Because the only label that fits me is that of a guy passionate about video-games. A gamer.

Before anyone asks I won't go into details, or go after specific targets or try to abuse or haras anyone, this is just a guy trying to take in the larger picture, not the mudy specifics. In past posts I may have touched on subjects like feminism, but here I'm throwing all that out the window and I'm just talking about games and their press. So I would ask those that wish to repond to refrain from going into such specifics or starting a flame war. Got it? Ok, here we go.

What have we learned here, at the core of things? That gaming media is corupt? A good conclusion, but not entirely true. First off, not all of the media is corupt. There are still people who try their best to be as impartial as they can (because understand that as human beeings we can never be 100% impartial). Second: media coruption is nothing new. Media and the press have been corupted to serve ideals and political agendas since their inception. I can understand displeasure at blatant displays of coruption, but I can't understand how shocked some people seem to be to have learned this truth.

What I'm noticing in this entire scandal is that lines of battle are beeing drawn. The media is beeing fractured into sides, and these sides are beeing turned into mounthpieces for a number of different political agendas. But what the media and the gamers themselves seem to forget is this: who gives a crap about political agendas when what we should be doing is talking about video games! This is what baffles me. Why are we even here? Perhaps we should look at an industry with more experience. I also hapen to be a movie buff and I'm usually in the seat at every major release that interests me and at any movie festival I can get to. I'm not saying film>games, and I'm not saying the film industry isn't corupt. It is. But let me ask you this: When let's say Megan Fox gets put in role that is nothing but her posing sexy for the camera (like most of her roles sadly), what happens? Critics will say her role was underwritten and detracted from the movie's quality. Now what would happen if we had a similar character in a game? Outrage, war, feminist yelling harassment and opresion, gamers beeing called dicks for objectifying women. See the problem? The issue of wether a game was good or not would get pushed out of the spotlight to make room for political agendas and issues that have nothing to do with this industry. Maybe we should learn from here.

This whole debacle started when some people saw the widespread popularity of games as a platform from which to spread their political views. Today I can barely read about a game without hearing about objectification, sexism, violence, mysoginy, death threats ... and none of those fucking things have anything to do with my precious games and me having fun! I'm fucking sick of it! I can just as easily play and have fun with a game that is balanced and has interesting female charcters as I can play a game with walking cardboard sex dols AS LONG AS THE GAME IS GOOD AND FUN FOR ME! I DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT YOUR BLOODY POLITICAL MESSAGE, WHAT I WANT IS A FUN GAME AND YOU AS A JOURNALIST SHOULD TRY TO INFORM ME WHY I MIGHT FIND GAME X FUN, NOT WHY GAME X IS SEXISTS!

Now I freely admit this has got out of hand and there are some serious issues with harrasment and an overwhelmingly ... shall we say insulting reaction to articles or posts about games that also bring a political view to their forefront. But let me ask you this, people who think games should adhere to a political message or view or whatever. Who called you here? Who said "games have a problem and we need your help to fix it"? Nobody. You were not needed here. Gaming was a young medium finding it's way and growing. And then what did you think? "well we fucked up trying to slave movies to our ideals and political view, let's try games". And so you invented issues that weren't there and started telling people games are bad NOT BECAUSE THEIR GAMEPLAY WAS BAD, OR GRAPHICS SUFFERED OR THE SOUND WAS BAD, BUT BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT IN LINE WITH SOME PERCEIVED NOTIONS OF RIGHT OR WRONG! I don't bloody care aboutn political views in books or movies or games, what I care about is they are of quality and enjoyable! I don't see this with movies. Or books. You can be as sexist or as equalitarian as you want when making a movie or writing a book and said movie or book will be found wanting or not simply based on whether or not their were good and not on how sexist or whatever they were. And by that token when a movie offends some minority or something, that movie isn't panned or removed or vilified. That minority simply does not view it and may boycot future projects of the director or writer. Can we please do that here? Can we please focus on the games and not on some vague political debate? CAN I PLEASE GO BACK TO HAVING FUN WITH MY HOBY RATHER THAN X GROUP TELLING ME I'M SCUM FOR Y REASON WHEN ALL I WANT IS TO FUCKING PLAY A GAME AND RELAX?! And for those of you with political views that find some games to insult those views: can you please frame your rection as a normal person not a demagogue? Can you please say "well this game offends some of my sensibilities and anyone with the same sensibilities may wish to avoid it" instead of going "This is obviously yet another sign of the industry beeing X or Y and we MUST CHANGE THAT NOW!" Because here is a reality flash: Yes the industry is biased, yes the industry is male centric? You know why? Because MALES STARTED THE DAMN INDUSTRY AND UNTILL TODAY FEMALES INVOLVMENT WAS MINIMAL! Can you please be resonable and understand that the medium is evolving, and as more and more females become gamers and game developers, soo too will the industry change to reflect those things? On it's own. Without you bleeting out political messaged left and right and crying whatever flavour of the day opresion you perceive? Can you be resonable and understand that evolution takes time and it will happen as soon as the right conditions are met, and not try to enforce rapid change at the cost of making good and fun games?

Nobody invited you here. Nobody said "Oh please person with strong political views, please come and share with us gamers your vision". All we wanted since the begining were fun and enjoyable games. So please take your political views, leave them at the door, and lets go back to talking about whether a game was good or not, AND NOT ABOUT WHETHER IT CONFORMED TO SOME MORAL/ETHICAL/RELIGIOUS/POLTICAL STANDARD! BECAUSE NONE OF THOSE FUCKING THINGS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH VIDEOGAMES!

In sumary: Change will happen on it's own, what matters is the quality of games, not their political or social slant. I've said my piece and once more I ask people who will read this and grace my comment with a response: please don;t turn this into a flame war.

EDIT: So many people jumping up my drain pipe because they see this as just another gamer trying to silence criticism. I'm jsut going to put this in capital letter so you all can read:
I'M ALL FOR INCLUSIVITY AND EXPOSURE AND FAIR TREATMENT. WHAT I'M NOT FOR IS PEOPLE TURNING GAMING INTO A MESSY POLITICAL BATTLEGROUND, SHIT LFINGING, FLAME WARS, INSULTS, HARASSMENT OR ANY OTHER SUCH SHIT. WHAT I AM SIMPLY ASKING FOR IS PERSPECTIVE. WHAT IS MORE LIKELY? THAT PEOPLE CALLING GAMERS AND GAMES SHIT FOR NOT IMEDIATLY CONFORMING TO THEIR VIEWS SUDENLY SWAY THE MINDS OF ANY AND ALL DEVS TO SUNDELY ALTER EVERY PROJECT TO FIT A NEW STANDARD OF INCLUSIVITY? OR THAT THESE DEVS WILL GRADUALLY GET REPLACED WITH TIME BY PEOPLE WITH MORE OPEN MINDS? THINK.

And you know, if this had been going on for a while with no change, I might be on your side. But see, change is happening. Bioshock Infinite, The Last of Us, Telltale's Walking Dead. These are examples of positive things in the industry. See, the industry is changing, you people jsut ignore that because like the good old song "I want it all, I want it now". News flash kids: life NEVER works that way. You have to be patient and civil. That was my whole point. All of you people who want gaming to be taken seriously as art but then go out there and start flinging insults at one another ARE SIMPLY DESTROYING ANY CHANCE THIS MEDIUM HAS OF BEEING TAKEN SERIOUSLY.
 

Here Comes Tomorrow

New member
Jan 7, 2009
645
0
0
No, because our way of having fun was wrong and we have to be forced to have fun the RIGHT way, because otherwise we're worse than murderers and rapists.
 

XDSkyFreak

New member
Mar 2, 2013
154
0
0
As a clarification: I'm not asking you to stop believeing in any flavour of political or social message or wahtever you believe in. I'm asking you to adress this a rational person, and not try to enforce a specific set of views on gaming and gamers. I'm all for women in gaming, heck I got some of the girls I know to start palying games (and beat the crap out of me at them sometimes).

But all the harasment and the shit flinging and the political message has to stop so we can get back to the real issue: the quality of games. Stop trying to force a political message down the throats of people and you will find people will stop defending violently against it.
 

thundra

New member
Aug 19, 2014
97
0
0
no because feminists are attacking untouchable glorious hobby thats gaming. Publishers and shareholders are all ways right and never pressure the developers to make broken games.
 

XDSkyFreak

New member
Mar 2, 2013
154
0
0
I guess I should have asked for less sarcasam and more discussion here ... anyway, it seems people aren't interested for once to drop the guns. I find it hilarious how many people keep on arguing and how many times I keep hearing the argument about how "old school gamers don't want change" ... I've been gaming almost since the first games were out and I love change. What I don't love is tha sad and pathetic argument that "All games should conform to such and such social/political/whatever standards". Mmmm no. Because then you just killed all posible cretivity of the medium and made it a drab asembly line. And we all love those don't we? (*cough* CoD *cough*)

Ask for inclusivity in games, by all means. Don't try to enforce it. Don't go around calling gamers "shit" for every single objectified female character in games. Or if you do, do that for all other mediums like movies or books. Comment on the sexist attitudes of devs or games X and Y, but as long as the core game itself is good, don't try to make it seem otherwise. I love bioshock infinite's Elisabeth just as much I sometimes like to pick Melina and eat faces in MK. Discuss social issues all you want, but refrain for insulting gamers because the games don't adhere to some holy whatever standard. Things change when the people in the industry change. And the people of the industry create what fits their views and beliefs, not your views and beliefs. So when people that share your vies and beliefs bother to actually get into this industry they claim to love and want to change then change will come. Not by you insulting gamers and trying to force some standards on us. Because whenever you force something onto people, some react violently and hetefully.

The root of this whole scandal and hatred is that people that might have ment well and sought to help gaming evolve by pointing out some flaws, did that verry thing in a manner that insulted gamers. I am loathe to do this but let me use an example: I completly agree with the message Sarkesian (sorry for the name butchery but I'm too tired) was trying to get across: that sexism is prevalent in gaming culture and that should change. What I don't agree with is HOW she got that message across: by implying that all male gamers are sexist pigs that live in their basement and think a female is some mythical creature, and also by trying to enforce the notion that her views are the only RIGHT answer. And when that's how you deliver the message then you do 2 things: you cheapen the message and you open yourself up to all kinds of rebukes, from civilize all the way to hatred.

And let's look at another thing here that all these people are doing wrong. Rememebr fox news? We all do. We all remember beeing labeled criminals and violent pshycos by ludites. We all remember how at some level we feared that these blind people might make our hoby vanish. So after that whole mess was over in comes another group of people, this time people who actually may want to do good, but they begin their message by once again isulting gamers at some level. At this point some more paraniod than others jumoed right back in the mindset they had during the fox news debacle. Some saw this as yet another attack. And this time they responded by attacking themselves. And so the cycle of hatred begins. From a mistake and misundertanding. Like I said: there is coruption and there are forces out there that seek to use gaming and game media as a mouthpiece for political news. This is inevitable and is true of all forms of media.

Oh well, seems nobody wants to discuss this. I'll just go back to *checks steam* oh hey new update to WFTO. Or maybe get some sleep.
 

zen5887

New member
Jan 31, 2008
2,923
0
0
I definitely think you're taking the hyperbolic criticisms of gaming culture a little too personally. When somebody says something like "gamers are awful and shit" it's important to take a few steps back and think about why they are saying that. Sure, it might be easier to spin into a rage and throw your fists in the air and scream "but I'm not awful and shit!", but you'll save a lot of energy this way. Okay, so the idea of denouncing gamers is a reaction to the toxic shit that happens in the gaming community (and there is a lot of toxic shit, we can't pretend otherwise) and it's nothing more than that, a reaction. It's like the song "fuck the police". It doesn't mean I hate every single police officer and I want the idea of police torn down, it's a hyperbole mean to get a reaction and draw attention to a legitimate issue. If you're angry at one side of this issue for calling gamers "sexist pigs that live in their basement and think a female is some mythical creature" you just have to ask yourself "am I the type of person they are talking about?" If you're the type of person who sends hate mail and threats to women who talk about sexism, or the type of person who spams rage at people on LoL or Dota2, or the type of person who oogles cosplayers at cons, or the type of person who just generally acts like a shithead, then maybe you do need to take a look at yourself. But judging by the tone of your posts I'd say probably not.

Anyway, that was a bit off topic.

I really, really want games to be seen as a legitimate art form and I want them to be celebrated as much as literature and film. Imagine that? The quality, variety, and exposure of games would skyrocket! One night I could play a big budget game about repelling an alien invasion. It would have tight action, big set pieces, interesting characters, and an innovative multiplayer mode. The next night I would play a big budget game about a 23 year old college wrestling standout who suffers from autism spectrum disorder and depression. The gameplay is abstract and slow paced and a lot of the challenges come from navigating the game world and after playing it for a few hours I feel kind of sad, but also incredibly fortunate that I'm neurotypical. I want games to be about more than just shooting and sports and invading. There is nothing at all wrong with shooting, sports, or invading, but they've been around since the 70s and I just want something new.

Without reflection and examination and criticism our beloved medium isn't going to grow. Like all art it needs to be picked apart and looked at (at the very least it should be allowed to be without worrying about rape threats...) in order to be understood, and it needs to be understood in order to improve.

Suuuureeeee the reflecting and examining is a little hamfisted but this is, at least I think it is, the first real period of time where we are talking about this stuff. At least, the first time we have fans of games talking about this stuff, not just media shock jocks.

But really, in the end gaming is a big platform. I doubt the people who have sunk 2000 hours into Football Manager or the people making squillions of dollars playing SC2 are paying much attention to all of this. If you want to just enjoy games, perhaps it's time to stop engaging with these types of discussions. Stop reading threads that have anything to do with with this stuff, surely it can't be that hard.

Sometimes I think that's what I need to do... ughh...
 

L. Declis

New member
Apr 19, 2012
861
0
0
You know what?

No.

I am sick and tired of the constant condescension, constant belittling and constant snide remarks by the "SJW side" or the anti-GamerGaters.

I say we have it now. A final battle to end it all. Let us *****, argue and fight until nothing is left but an agreed way. This has been building for years and you know what? Let us fucking have it out.

Let us fight on the towers of journalism? Will the nepotism and back scratching continue or can we have a free and open media?

Can we accept that all flavours of gaming are acceptable or must we bow that all that popular is sexist, racist and wrong?

Can we begin to have clean and kind conversation without accusations of hypocrisy, 4chan puppetry or sexism being thrown around by people who are proven to manipulate media and insult their audience?

Let us have a massive fucking purge and be done with the whole thing.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
thundra said:
no because feminists are attacking untouchable glorious hobby thats gaming. Publishers and shareholders are all ways right and never pressure the developers to make broken games.
So something that creates a lot problems and hostility in the games industry is A-OK because there are other problems too! So let's ignore the first one, right guys?

A+ argument.
 

Longing

New member
Nov 29, 2012
178
0
0
I don't see why all those things stop your fun? Are game not enjoyable anymore because you know somewhere in the world, someone is having objections about certain parts of some random game?

And what if my idea of fun is more progressive games and that the ones with walking sex dolls as you put, are incredibly miserable for me to play? Does your perspective trump mine?

ps. that huge block of words is incredibly hard to read, you might want to cut that up a bit.
 

DaWaffledude

New member
Apr 23, 2011
628
0
0
No, and anyone who thinks so is trying to divert attention from the real issues, and is part of the MRA/Feminist/Gaming journalist conspiracy. Yes, they're all part of the same conspiracy. It's all a bid for attention, I tell you. Open your eyes, sheeple.
 

And Man

New member
May 12, 2014
309
0
0
Here Comes Tomorrow said:
No, because our way of having fun was wrong and we have to be forced to have fun the RIGHT way, because otherwise we're worse than murderers and rapists.
thundra said:
no because feminists are attacking untouchable glorious hobby thats gaming. Publishers and shareholders are all ways right and never pressure the developers to make broken games.
Welp, that didn't take long.

XDSkyFreak said:
I'm not against discussion, and I know you want to make your point, but there are already so many topics about all of this, and as you can see by the first two responses to your thread, making even more topics when posting in one of the others would have sufficed isn't exactly reducing the hostility...
 

thundra

New member
Aug 19, 2014
97
0
0
Guerilla said:
thundra said:
no because feminists are attacking untouchable glorious hobby thats gaming. Publishers and shareholders are all ways right and never pressure the developers to make broken games.
So something that creates a lot problems and hostility in the games industry is A-OK because there are other problems too! So let's ignore the first one, right guys?

A+ argument.

You make me sad if only you knew what sarcasm is
 

Mirroga

New member
Jun 6, 2009
1,119
0
0
Why aren't the feminists attacking the porn industry then? It's pretty much the same gratification of male power fantasy as SOME (not all) games have. You can't attack one part of society while accepting its synonymous counterparts.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
thundra said:
Guerilla said:
thundra said:
no because feminists are attacking untouchable glorious hobby thats gaming. Publishers and shareholders are all ways right and never pressure the developers to make broken games.
So something that creates a lot problems and hostility in the games industry is A-OK because there are other problems too! So let's ignore the first one, right guys?

A+ argument.
http://media.giphy.com/media/sTpe0zIatX4rK/giphy.gif
You make me sad if only you knew what sarcasm is[/quote]

I know what sarcasm is and I detected yours, did you understand mine?

Aren't you pretty much saying that feminism creating all these problems in the gaming industry is OK because publishers create problems too?
 

thundra

New member
Aug 19, 2014
97
0
0
Guerilla said:
thundra said:
Guerilla said:
thundra said:
no because feminists are attacking untouchable glorious hobby thats gaming. Publishers and shareholders are all ways right and never pressure the developers to make broken games.
So something that creates a lot problems and hostility in the games industry is A-OK because there are other problems too! So let's ignore the first one, right guys?

A+ argument.
http://media.giphy.com/media/sTpe0zIatX4rK/giphy.gif
You make me sad if only you knew what sarcasm is[/quote]

I know what sarcasm is and I detected yours, did you understand mine?

Aren't you pretty much saying that feminism creating all these problems in the gaming industry is OK because publishers create problems too?[/quote]
Everyone is part of a problem no one is clean from this bullshit remember jennifer hepler? That guy who made a patch for cod? Probably not
 

1Life0Continues

Not a Gamer, I Just Play Games
Jul 8, 2013
209
0
0
Longing said:
I don't see why all those things stop your fun? Are game not enjoyable anymore because you know somewhere in the world, someone is having objections about certain parts of some random game?

And what if my idea of fun is more progressive games and that the ones with walking sex dolls as you put, are incredibly miserable for me to play? Does your perspective trump mine?

ps. that huge block of words is incredibly hard to read, you might want to cut that up a bit.
This. Just--all of the this.

I don't have much else to add. It feels like no matter what is said, it all boils down to 'I want to put a sign on the treehouse that says 'no [x] allowed' because the concept of inclusivity makes me feel funny.'
 

runequester

New member
Aug 6, 2010
79
0
0
The reason you are getting a rough response is that you are not saying "Let's all come to a common ground and play some games". You're saying "This side is right and we should play some games".

It should be fairly obvious at this point that this isn't to win anyone over.

Messages are 98% delivery, 2% content. Don't goof up the delivery or no one will care about your content.
 

Darth Rosenberg

New member
Oct 25, 2011
1,288
0
0
XDSkyFreak said:
But all the harasment and the shit flinging and the political message has to stop so we can get back to the real issue: the quality of games. Stop trying to force a political message down the throats of people and you will find people will stop defending violently against it.
Aren't you being a tad hypocritical or just disingenuous?

You don't get to decide what the "real" issue is - everyone does, and will.

I've been gaming for as long as I could hold a joystick in front of some crappy Atari in the mid '80's, and I see games as entertainment and art (preferably both at the same time). I care about how this medium evolves, and what values it reflects, rejects, and perpetuates. AND I care about the quality of the games I play/enjoy.

And so I will continue to discuss both, because to me - and, I believe, any vaguely sensible, empathetic person who has a longstanding critical interest in the medium and its place in society/culture - they're both important, "real" issues. I get your general point (I think), but you seemed to phrase it rather oddly or arrogantly.

(also on a personal note: nothing that ever happens affects my own enjoyment of gaming. why on earth would it? nothing compels anyone to listen to or engage with any of the spats that occur)
 

Shadow-Phoenix

New member
Mar 22, 2010
2,289
0
0
I miss those days when the majority of the threads in the gaming section were talk about games, now it's all talk about people, media and a company someone doesn't like or to shit on a game that's on a console.
 

Elvis Starburst

Unprofessional Rant Artist
Legacy
Aug 9, 2011
2,821
805
118
Leon Declis said:
I say we have it now. A final battle to end it all. Let us *****, argue and fight until nothing is left but an agreed way. This has been building for years and you know what? Let us fucking have it out.

Let us fight on the towers of journalism? Will the nepotism and back scratching continue or can we have a free and open media?

Can we accept that all flavours of gaming are acceptable or must we bow that all that popular is sexist, racist and wrong?

Can we begin to have clean and kind conversation without accusations of hypocrisy, 4chan puppetry or sexism being thrown around by people who are proven to manipulate media and insult their audience?

Let us have a massive fucking purge and be done with the whole thing.
Oh god, that would be incredible to see. Just let it all out in a massive war, and let the pieces fall where they may. I like it~

OT: I get how you feel. Seeing this crap constantly is rather depressing. I'm guilty of being annoyed too, making a few rage infused posts. I'd like things to just be about the games as well. But god dammit, it doesn't seem to be happening any time soon, which is unfortunate. I'm half tempted to simply just shut myself out from the entire discussion and live in peaceful, blissful ignorance. Though not always the best idea, cause I like contributing as I can; but the whole train wreck we're seeing kinda makes me feel otherwise. I'm sure a lot of us just wish it would end already.