Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[AstylahAthrys]

I'll start off with this, because this post might jump around.

If a girl says she wants someone "just like you" and doesn't date you, she's being shitty.

That being said, I have friend zoned a guy before, a few months ago, actually. He was a "nice guy." I didn't want that. You can't just be nice to a girl, you have to be romantic and make her feel special. All he wanted was to talk and play video games. No kissing. No sex. Why would I want that? He also couldn't communicate his feelings properly (he asked me out in Japanese because he was too nervous to in English.) I could overcome the thought of seeing him without a shirt on made me want to puke, love overshadows that. You get ugly when you get old anyway. I can't overcome everything else. But he was nice, so I did the let's be friends thing, because I did not feel the same way. At all. Would it be better if I led him on and broke his heart after getting his hopes up? I felt like shit doing it.

If the guy is too awkward to act as more than a friend, why ruin a perfectly good friendship to make it a shitty romantic relationship? I've done that twice before. Once it worked out fine, we stayed friends after a small awkward period. The other one had too many feelings involved and I can't ever be just friends with him. Sometimes the risk just shouldn't be taken.

I've been on the other side of the guy who lashes out at being friend zoned. It can be really jarring. You're honest, you don't have feelings and you want to let them down easy because you do value your friendship, but they just act like you are the worst person in the world because you aren't dating them. I know rejection sucks, feel free to wallow in self-pity and not talk to me, but you don't need to moan on Facebook for a week so your bros pity you and try to guilt me into saying yes. That is not how you want someone to say yes.

Oh, and then there's the "because I'm single I'm automatically available" aspect. After I had to call it quits with my high school sweetheart because LDRs suck, I had a guy try to swoop me up and be my prince charming, but I wasn't having it. Ended up dating a clingy friend of mine with low self-esteem.

I can be kind of bubbly, so I worry about accidentally leading guys on. I'm sure I have before and I feel bad for it, but I never would take advantage of a crush for my benefit. That's cruel and no matter how much of a dork a guy can be, he deserves better.

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

If you were nice to someone just to get into their pants then you aren't exactly a "nice guy" are you?
(toward your example of friend-zoned person)

Your example is alittle extreme and bitter I think. Honestly friend-zoned is just you like someone who thinks of you as a friend. I understand ending the relationship because it might be a bit painful, but it's up to you to decide whether it's worth it. I imagine many times it is worth it. Running away and crying about it is just that, running away and crying.

I get friend zoned all the time, but I'm not bitter or angry about it. I appreciate the female friends I have made and keep looking. The idea that they like and care about me is very important too.

 

[Nieroshai]

You utterly ignore the difference between "I think I'm in love with her" and "I want to jump her bones." A lot of the pain of being friendzoned comes from the fact that you have come to need that person, want a deeper relationship than "hey we just hang out," yet you can never have that person. To be honest, it hurts. Especially when your "friendship" with this person is in almost every way a deeper relationship than a most sexual (note I refuse to use the term "romantic") relationships. Annother part of the problem is that sometimes one person wants a significant other who is also a friend, but no matter where they turn, no matter how close a friend they become, that other person would rather have exciting relationships that may or may not be entirely impersonal.

TLR: you are coming down too hard on a topic you haven't done your homework on. If it happened to you, you'd know it isn't all about sex.



CAPTCHA: The all-new Chevy Sonic

I'm sick and tired of this one. Nobody cares, Chevy. At least, not enough that they want to see it on EVERY website they visit!

 

[SovietSecrets]

Personally its the fun in trying to get the girl for me. I fail miserably, but I have come to enjoy it for the most part. Unlike my creepy old 17-18 year old self.

 

[RafaelNegrus]

And again the Escapist sank in an argument about entitlement.

I thought most "friendzone" posts were supposed to be about girls who repeatedly commit the mistake of dating jerks.

I am talking about people stupid enough to start dating just because a guy paid her a beer while the proverbial "nice guy" is doing her laundry or something.

It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has to do with people too stupid to take a hint.

That was what I thought, didn't realize so many viewed it as the guys problem instead of the standard "She dates ass, gets fucked over, complains about no nice guys" thing.

But hey message out to you guys and gals in the "friend zone," your time will come around, and because you're the kind to be friends first you'll have some of the best relationships. Just can't let a few bumps trip you up.

That's really nice to hear, thank you. It's been a little rough for me personally, and it's always good to hear words of hope, especially ones that aren't cliches.

OT: Just for me personally, it takes me a little while to get interested in a girl. I'm still going to college, there are tons of good looking, smart girls around here. I have to spend time with them to become interested at all. If it doesn't work out, well at least I've met a really interesting person who may or may not want to stick around.

 

[Mycroft Holmes]

I don't really see the big deal about friend zoning. Unless you've literally been good friends with someone for like 10 years to the point where you feel like they are basically a family member; there is not going to be a magical fucking line where someone becomes undatable. You have as much chance of getting someone to date you having just met them as you have after they have become your 'friend.' If they don't like you that way, then they just don't. So learn to deal, because friendship has nothing to do with it.

That being said, I have friend zoned a guy before, a few months ago, actually.

All he wanted was to talk and play video games. No kissing. No sex.

Uhhhh you sure you friend-zoned him? Because it sounds like he friend-zoned you.

So you become friends with a female

^^HOW THE HELL DO YOU DO THIS^^

OT: Y'know what no, no OT, I've never even been friends with a girl and I'm in college, guys who get friendzoned can shut the hell up, I'd kill to be friendzoned

Coming from a straight male virgin who has had more female friends than male friends: It's pretty fucking easy. You do it the exact same way you make any friend. Talk to them, hang out, enjoy the same things. And no, finding them sexually attractive does not preclude you from being their friend; you just have to either have the self control to not be creepy, or just not give enough of a shit about having sex with them.

 

[AstylahAthrys]

That being said, I have friend zoned a guy before, a few months ago, actually.

All he wanted was to talk and play video games. No kissing. No sex.

Uhhhh you sure you friend-zoned him? Because it sounds like he friend-zoned you.

I wish he had. That would have saved a lot of drama. He begged and pleaded me to take me out on a date, but I knew he was not physically affectionate because I am friends with his ex, who just broke up with him for that very reason. I got showered with plenty of pretty words, but it didn't change I thought he was not boyfriend material. He was just a very awkward boy who wanted to hold hands, go to movies and call me his girlfriend. He's 18, I'm 20, so maybe he'll grow up. And start talking about things other than Bleach and Naruto and moving to Japan (the greatest country ever according to him) and video games. I may love me some video games, but I'm also an adult. The fact we both love Skyrim will only go so far.

 

[Slayer_2]

Takes all sorts to make a world and all that. But yes, this isn't exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to find on a gaming forum. I do sometimes wonder how some people find these forums in the first place, but then again that probably makes me guilty of generalising so... yeah

It's too easy to start generalizing, that's how our lazy brains are built. Some people probably assume everyone here is a fat, white male shut in their mom's basement.

Anyhow, my original point was that those few women were no better than the "friend-zoned" guys, even worse, perhaps. They're just shallow, where are the men are just bitter and hurt, much easier to sympathize with, if almost as annoying. Not that I'm calling all women shallow bitches or anything. Just a select few. On reflection, it's not like my gender is much better for that, I know too many of my friends that berate me whenever I so much as look at a girl who isn't an "8" or better. And they think they're virgins because of bad luck... LOL.

 

[Smooth Operator]

I really hate it when guys become my friend just to get into my knickers, brrr, it is super super creepy.

Again operating under the assumption men are emotionless pussy hunters, as flattered as we may be by this Iron-man impression people go on it is only wishful thinking, if only leaving emotion aside was that simple.

If we could do it then friendships wouldn't ever come to mind, when you can simply get a girl drunk and see her inhibitions wash away till you get to hump her leg.
Truth however is that just isn't the real picture, we want to be wanted, we want people to desire us as a full package, add to that the daunting fear of rejection and you get the safe road to meeting people... friendship.
Not saying it's the right approach but the "pussy stalking creeper" idea starting to build up behind these things is just insane.

 

[MrGseff]

Hmmm you seemed to have generalised the events leading up to the friend zone status, that or my experience just happened to be a tad different.
I did like a girl and as you put it yourself "You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors."
That is true, that is what I did and the outcome was very similar to what you said... except that when I told her we were both drunk and she said she did have feelings for me in that way, so for a week a was lead to believe that were so, the next time we spoke she informed me she didn't mean it.
I admit, I was a little bit heartbroken when she asked if we could still be friends, rather thank thinking "if I can't get what I want (a relationship, not the "get some action" bullshit you were thinking), then she cant get what she wants" I instead thought "ok,I don't mind being just friends" this was because the last thing I wanted was to lose this person from my life completely. This was my recent experience with friend zones, it happened two years ago and we are still close friends to this day.
This creates my point that not all 'friend zoning' happens like the way you say it does, they are all different, a part of me is glad of the outcome because if we did get into a relationship and it bombed it would have been harder to stay friends. My only argument is towards the "I wish I could find a guy like you" If you're not trying to imply something to that person you shouldn't say it as it can build up hopes that will ultimately be crush.

Tl;DR - Friend zone situations happen differently, girls shouldnt say "I wish I could find a guy like you.

 

[tobyornottoby]

It is implied that if you are a controlling dickhead, you don't care about the person you're being a dickhead to.
Learn to read between the lines, please.
The natural conclusion is that attractiveness is directly proportional to how much of a dick you are.

Or maybe both 'being a dickhead' and 'being attractive' both come from the same source, 'being assertive and confident' but are not necessarily correlated.

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are nice because they genuinely have a desire to be kind to others.
We really don't have any idea what their intentions are, so it is pure conjecture at this point.

Sorry I didn't mean it that way, what I'm saying is that being nice is not enough. You can be smart, funny, good-looking, sharing hobbies or views, all those things will attract people to each other. A woman can be attracted to a man who's good looking. She can be head over heals for an 'ugly' man who's very smart. But you don't just fall in love with someone simply because they're nice.

Also, no one claimed that being nice isn't all the the hypothetical friendzoned individual has to offer.

Some of those "Nice Guy" rants do. "They are nice, they do not get the girl, that's unfair."

Maybe you see caring and kindness as a requisite, a means to an end, but some people actually want to be nice and see kindness as an end in itself.

Certainly. As I said a while ago in the thread:
If you want someone to hate you, be mean to them.
If you want someone to be friends with you, be nice to them.
If you want someone to love you, be romantic to them.

If you are nice to a girl and she wants to be friends with you, that's exactly what you asked for. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with that. Being nice to people and men and women being friends are beautiful things.

But men shouldn't complain they're being nice but the other doesn't love them back. If they want B, act B. Don't act A and complain you're not getting B.

There are differences that are immediately visible and statistically provable, such as height or skeletal structure.
Saying that women are less literal, a claim which is at best supported by anecdotal evidence and is not visible or statistically provable, is not acceptable.
Stop pulling random "gender facts" out of your ass.

There have been many books written on the subject. (The following are all generalisations and do NOT apply to every individual)

When a woman says "You never take out the garbage and you always keep your dirty clothes lying around" she doesn't literally mean 'never' and 'always' (rather as poetic embellishments), although men will interpret it as such, leading to pointless arguments.
When a woman asks "does this make me look fat" she doesn't want a yes or no answer. She wants to hear you find her beautiful.
When a woman talks about her problems, chances are she doesn't want to hear solutions but just a listening ear.
When a woman asks "Are you hungry? We can pull over to stop somewhere", chances are she is hungry herself, so you just saying "no" and carrying on will be interpreted as insensitive. Women are more likely to ask things indirectly.

Evidence, provability? These are everyday problems, happening all the time.

 

[Vegosiux]

Or maybe both 'being a dickhead' and 'being attractive' both come from the same source, 'being assertive and confident' but are not necessarily correlated.

I'd be inclined to argue that 'geing a dickhead' more likely comes from the source of 'not being very confident'. You know, act tough when you're second-guessing yourself and you can easily try too hard.

Sorry I didn't mean it that way, what I'm saying is that being nice is not enough. You can be smart, funny, good-looking, sharing hobbies or views, all those things will attract people to each other. A woman can be attracted to a man who's good looking. She can be head over heals for an 'ugly' man who's very smart. But you don't just fall in love with someone simply because they're nice.

I doubt that any one trait is sufficient, really. I mean, for falling in love. For wanting to have sex, the trait of 'having a cock and not looking like a complete slob' is often quite enough for a woman. Similarly for a man.

Certainly. As I said a while ago in the thread:
If you want someone to hate you, be mean to them.
If you want someone to be friends with you, be nice to them.
If you want someone to love you, be romantic to them.

If you are nice to a girl and she wants to be friends with you, that's exactly what you asked for. And there's nothing wrong with that. Being nice to people and men and women being friends are beautiful things.

But men shouldn't complain they're being nice but the other doesn't love them back. If they want B, act B. Don't act A and complain you're not getting B.

That simple, is it? Every woman will just fall head over heels for you if you inviter her for a candle-lit dinner? I think the only pretty much guaranteed outcome is he mean/hate one, but even there we have exceptions. And well, I daresay most romantic things are also nice, and the line is often blurred.

 

[The White Hunter]

I'd agree with the whole "Just because you're nice doesn't entitle you to a relationship with them"
However, the friend I had feelings for, hooked up with me (while she was completely sober mind you) months after we became friends, then when I confessed my feelings for her I was instantly friend zoned.
Now that was bullshit.

That happened to me so much in high school. I'm fine with being just friends but make it clear from the off you aren't interested don't lead me on ¬_¬
It's also really annoying, [true story alert], when a girl tells you she has feelings for you, then goes off with her dickhead druggy boyfriend and then blames you when he abuses her. As if it's my fault she makes bad decisions or something? Sadly, nice guys do finish last, speaking from experience of being a nice guy.

At any rate it doesn't affect me these days, I have a girlfriend of just over 3 years so I don't really care about girls not liking me. =p

...
Nice guys should finish last anyway (;

 

[tobyornottoby]

I'd be inclined to argue that 'geing a dickhead' more likely comes from the source of 'not being very confident'. You know, act tough when you're second-guessing yourself and you can easily try too hard.

That might be true. Reminds me of the Dog Wisperer, where it's about calm assertive behavior, versus insecure aggressive dogs.

So we would have assertive confident guys as the holy grail for girls, assertive insecure guys as the 'bad bfs', shy confident guys ending up just fine, and shy insecure guys posting "Nice Guy" rants?

I doubt that any one trait is sufficient, really. I mean, for falling in love.

Certainly, I oversimplified it there. I used those other exampled to show that being nice is not the holy grail.

That simple, is it? Every woman will just fall head over heels for you if you inviter her for a candle-lit dinner? I think the only pretty much guaranteed outcome is he mean/hate one, but even there we have exceptions. And well, I daresay most romantic things are also nice, and the line is often blurred.

Of course it's not guaranteed. Just like how "If you want to pass an exam, study" doesn't mean that studying guarantees passing. Just that studying will improve your changes of passing more than playing games would.

Cow is an animal, animal isn't a cow. Sure romantic things are nice. Nice things don't have to be romantic.

Also, what I find quite fascinating, is how some romantic things aren't actually nice. Like Simba pulling Nala in the water in the Lion King. Playfully annoying/teasing people.

 

[The White Hunter]

Tl;DR - Friend zone situations happen differently, girls shouldnt say "I wish I could find a guy like you.

My reply to that line was always "But I am a guy like me!" and then it'd end up losing a friend because of the application of cold logic.

Such is life.

 

[Eamar]

Just a few thouoghts about the lines we women use to turn people down, because I've seen quite a few guys in this thread who don't seem to understand them (which may well be understandable- you're not mind-readers):

"Let's just be friends" - means you're not a stranger (you wouldn't say this to some randomer in a bar), but she has no romantic interest in you. If you really are friends when you ask her out, then she really does want to be friends. If you're not really friends to begin with, more like acquaintances perhaps, then she doesn't mean she wants you to be her best friend overnight. Generally, this phrase has less to do with friendship per se and more to do with wanting your relationship to stay as it is (friends, co-workers, acquaintances, someone who went on a couple of "trial" dates with her, etc etc).

"I just don't think of you in that way" - means just that. There's nothing sinister going on here. She may like a lot of your qualities and enjoy being around you if you're friends, but she doesn't feel any chemistry. The pheromones are off or something. Those of you saying we should come out and say what's "wrong" with you so you can change are missing the point: if it was just one thing like say, smoking, she probably WOULD come out and say it. If you're friends with her you should probably know she doesn't like smokers anyway. Just one example, but whatever. The cold, hard truth is that you can't force chemistry. It doesn't mean she thinks you're ugly, it means that something's off on the most basic level of attraction.

"I don't want a relationship right now" - is sometimes true, sometimes a cop-out. She's trying to let you down gently. It's a classic "it's not you, it's me" line, and she's NOT meaning to lie to you if she ends up with someone else a little while afterwards. Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to find someone you want to be with when you're not actively looking for a relationship. In truth, the explanation probably has more to do with the lack of chemistry mentioned above.

Very few people enjoy turning people down. No genuinely nice person enjoys it. Yes, some of the things women (and men!) say in this situation can seem unsatisfactory to the person being turned down, but do try and consider the other person's point of view. (S)he's been put in a delicate situation, quite possibly been put on the spot, and is trying to say something that will inevitably hurt your feelings ("I don't want a relationship with you"), while at the same time trying to minimise the damage. I've been on both sides of this situation, and both suck.

 

[Mr.Pandah]

Just a few thouoghts about the lines we women use to turn people down, because I've seen quite a few guys in this thread who don't seem to understand them (which may well be understandable- you're not mind-readers):

"Let's just be friends" - means you're not a stranger (you wouldn't say this to some randomer in a bar), but she has no romantic interest in you. If you really are friends when you ask her out, then she really does want to be friends. If you're not really friends to begin with, more like acquaintances perhaps, then she doesn't mean she wants you to be her best friend overnight. Generally, this phrase has less to do with friendship per se and more to do with wanting your relationship to stay as it is (friends, co-workers, acquaintances, someone who went on a couple of "trial" dates with her, etc etc).

"I just don't think of you in that way" - means just that. There's nothing sinister going on here. She may like a lot of your qualities and enjoy being around you if you're friends, but she doesn't feel any chemistry. The pheromones are off or something. Those of you saying we should come out and say what's "wrong" with you so you can change are missing the point: if it was just one thing like say, smoking, she probably WOULD come out and say it. If you're friends with her you should probably know she doesn't like smokers anyway. Just one example, but whatever. The cold, hard truth is that you can't force chemistry. It doesn't mean she thinks you're ugly, it means that something's off on the most basic level of attraction.

"I don't want a relationship right now" - is sometimes true, sometimes a cop-out. She's trying to let you down gently. It's a classic "it's not you, it's me" line, and she's NOT meaning to lie to you if she ends up with someone else a little while afterwards. Believe it or not, it's perfectly possible to find someone you want to be with when you're not actively looking for a relationship. In truth, the explanation probably has more to do with the lack of chemistry mentioned above.

Very few people enjoy turning people down. No genuinely nice person enjoys it. Yes, some of the things women (and men!) say in this situation can seem unsatisfactory to the person being turned down, but do try and consider the other person's point of view. (S)he's been put in a delicate situation, quite possibly been put on the spot, and is trying to say something that will inevitably hurt your feelings ("I don't want a relationship with you"), while at the same time trying to minimise the damage. I've been on both sides of this situation, and both suck.

Good post. I'd say this is true most of the time with there being exceptions to the rule just like anything else. I've honestly just never had this problem and I truly feel this is something people bring onto themselves more than anything else.

 

[Daystar Clarion]

Seriously, these get annoying.

Self confidence is everything, if a girl is only looking for a super hot dude or a popular one she isn't worth your time ANYWAY.

"Nice guys" want a girlfriend? Grow up, stop being what is essentially sexist and try looking at girls for more then their damned looks.

Self confidence is everything, if a girl is only looking for a super hot dude or a popular one she isn't worth your time ANYWAY.

Self confidence is everything

Self

confidence

everything

You are wrong.

It's obviously might that controls everything.


Confirmation bias is everywhere

 

[Vegosiux]

Very few people enjoy turning people down. No genuinely nice person enjoys it. Yes, some of the things women (and men!) say in this situation can seem unsatisfactory to the person being turned down, but do try and consider the other person's point of view. (S)he's been put in a delicate situation, quite possibly been put on the spot, and is trying to say something that will inevitably hurt your feelings ("I don't want a relationship with you"), while at the same time trying to minimise the damage. I've been on both sides of this situation, and both suck.

A straight answer is usually the one that does minimal damage, people would do well to get that into their skulls. That goes for both genders, in any situation. And by straight, I do not mean blunt. Just clear.

"But I don't want to hurt him/her." Well, you are going to do it regardless, so best be clear and honest about it. Trying to weasel word one's way around the issue will simply leave a degree uncertainty behind, and that's always going to bite someone in the ass. If it's unavoidable, at least make it clean so that it doesn't fester.

 

[Eamar]

A straight answer is usually the one that does minimal damage. That goes for both genders, in any situation. And by straight, I do not mean blunt. Just clear.

"But I don't want to hurt him/her." Well, you are going to, so best be clear and honest about it. Trying to weasel word one's way around the issue will simply leave a degree uncertainty behind, and that's always going to bite someone in the ass.

"I just don't think of you in that way" is about as straight an answer as you can get. It's just that people (of both genders) when confronted with this aren't satisfied. They don't accept that it can be that simple, there has to be something more. There has to be some other reason WHY they don't feel attracted to you. Hell, I've thought like that before now.

My post basically meant that most of the common phrases used boil down to a simple lack of basic attraction (note: not a lack of basic attractiveness, as some people seem to think). It's harsh but it's true.

To be honest though, while you're right that a straight answer is usually the best one, I defy you to remain so logical when someone you genuinely care for, hell, even someone you don't know all that well but who you know to be a decent human being, has feelings you don;t return. I don't know, you may have been able to do that before and avoided the complications of trying to let someone down gently. If you've always managed to do that, you're a stronger person than I am.