Can we talk about the "friend zone" and "nice guys" for a moment?

[The Funslinger]

Amen. I've been on the receiving end of this before, someone I genuinely considered a close friend through years of school together suddenly came out with this over-emotional declaration of love, and just couldn't accept that I hadn't picked up on his "signs," which I'd always thought were just marks of a close friendship (and I'm not completely clueless when it comes to noticing these things, either). I was taken aback and didn't feel the same way about him, so I tried to let him down gently but honestly. He accused me of stringing him along, and then got into the whole being a jerk when I was interesting in or seeing anyone else phase. When I called him out on it he told me to deal with it, because he saw it as his right to try and stop others from being with me. He pretty much actually said the classic "I don't see why someone else should have you if I can't" line. Obviously I stopped spending time with him.

Thing is, he really wasn't "crazy", as I'm sure some women might assume. He'd just got orders of magnitude too invested in something that was never going to happen. To be honest, I think after all that time it wasn't even me he was "in love with," but some unrealistic, idealised version of me. We were teenagers and I'm sure he's more mature about such things now, but guys: please don't become that guy. (*standard disclaimer that women are perfectly capable of acting like this too*)

Ouch...

I bet once he snapped/snaps out of it, he's going to feel grade A retarded. That must have been infuriating on your end.

Seriously, though from personal experience from being on the receiving end of treatment like that (IE, a jealous individual trying to drive a wedge between me and a then-girlfriend) I took it to heart as a philosophy "if two people are happy together, under no circumstance do you have any right to ruin it". Shame some people just don't get that.

 

[dekcahw]

friendzone = putting a spin on rejection

I feel the problem most inexperienced guys have is trying to become good friends and build a comfort zone before moving on. Say they meet a chick they like thru a friend of a friend and hang out for two nights, they text, talk, invite her to do whatever in a friendly lets just hang out way. They establish a friendship and attempt to move from there. Whereas most guys would just go with "Hey, you are pretty and I want to know more about you" and toss in some sexual innuendo to let her know this is a "I want to f*** the hell out of you" meeting. If she rejects you, move on, if she doesn't, well, job done.

It doesn't happen to "nice guys" it happens to the inexperienced and scared, both of which are undesirable traits.

 

[ElPatron]

The "I want to stick my oyster knife into her clam, so let me pretend to be her friend so I'll gain her trust and, eventually into her pants"-spiel is deception. You pretend to be something you're not.

Actually, it wasn't about sex. And I never tried to pretend. She knew I was anything but nice when my jimmies are rustled.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Raven's Nest

Amen. I've been on the receiving end of this before, someone I genuinely considered a close friend through years of school together suddenly came out with this over-emotional declaration of love, and just couldn't accept that I hadn't picked up on his "signs," which I'd always thought were just marks of a close friendship (and I'm not completely clueless when it comes to noticing these things, either). I was taken aback and didn't feel the same way about him, so I tried to let him down gently but honestly. He accused me of stringing him along, and then got into the whole being a jerk when I was interesting in or seeing anyone else phase. When I called him out on it he told me to deal with it, because he saw it as his right to try and stop others from being with me. He pretty much actually said the classic "I don't see why someone else should have you if I can't" line. Obviously I stopped spending time with him.

Thing is, he really wasn't "crazy", as I'm sure some women might assume. He'd just got orders of magnitude too invested in something that was never going to happen. To be honest, I think after all that time it wasn't even me he was "in love with," but some unrealistic, idealised version of me. We were teenagers and I'm sure he's more mature about such things now, but guys: please don't become that guy. (*standard disclaimer that women are perfectly capable of acting like this too*)

Ouch...

I bet once he snapped/snaps out of it, he's going to feel grade A retarded. That must have been infuriating on your end.

Seriously, though from personal experience from being on the receiving end of treatment like that (IE, a jealous individual trying to drive a wedge between me and a then-girlfriend) I took it to heart as a philosophy "if two people are happy together, under no circumstance do you have any right to ruin it". Shame some people just don't get that.

Wrong quote target, You are responding to...

snip

 

[The Funslinger]

Raven's Nest

Amen. I've been on the receiving end of this before, someone I genuinely considered a close friend through years of school together suddenly came out with this over-emotional declaration of love, and just couldn't accept that I hadn't picked up on his "signs," which I'd always thought were just marks of a close friendship (and I'm not completely clueless when it comes to noticing these things, either). I was taken aback and didn't feel the same way about him, so I tried to let him down gently but honestly. He accused me of stringing him along, and then got into the whole being a jerk when I was interesting in or seeing anyone else phase. When I called him out on it he told me to deal with it, because he saw it as his right to try and stop others from being with me. He pretty much actually said the classic "I don't see why someone else should have you if I can't" line. Obviously I stopped spending time with him.

Thing is, he really wasn't "crazy", as I'm sure some women might assume. He'd just got orders of magnitude too invested in something that was never going to happen. To be honest, I think after all that time it wasn't even me he was "in love with," but some unrealistic, idealised version of me. We were teenagers and I'm sure he's more mature about such things now, but guys: please don't become that guy. (*standard disclaimer that women are perfectly capable of acting like this too*)

Ouch...

I bet once he snapped/snaps out of it, he's going to feel grade A retarded. That must have been infuriating on your end.

Seriously, though from personal experience from being on the receiving end of treatment like that (IE, a jealous individual trying to drive a wedge between me and a then-girlfriend) I took it to heart as a philosophy "if two people are happy together, under no circumstance do you have any right to ruin it". Shame some people just don't get that.

Wrong quote target, You are responding to...

snip

Ah, my bad! Would you say it's worth fixing my original post?

 

[Raven's Nest]

Ah, my bad! Would you say it's worth fixing my original post?

It's cool, by quoting Eamar, her attention will be brought to your post

 

[tobyornottoby]

Yeah, it's always the "nice guys" thinking that because it suits them, and in no way caused, say, by the woman complaining to said "nice guy" about how much of an assole her bf/husband/whatever is.

There's two things that girls really should learn not to say, one is "we can still be friends" at a bad time, because that's about as comforting as being told you can keep your cat after it was run over by a car (and then they even get offended if the guy instead of throwing a fit says "No thanks" and simply walks away); the other is "I wish I found someone like you", because, girl, if you're talking to him, you're looking at "someone like him" and what you're saying is rather stupid.

Actually, we all shouldn't be using stock phrases in delicate situations. We all should also respect that our decisions are our own and as sure as the girl's potential decision not to date a guy has to be respected, so does the guy's potential subsequent decision that he wants nothing further to do with her.

I can be happy with my car or my computer or whatever and still complain about them. A woman can complain about her bf but still be very happy with him. Nothing is perfect. Life has highs and lows. A "nice guy" might think she wouldn't have those lows if she was with him, but he forgets about the highs.
Also, women are prone to use more hyperbole in their talk. This is just one of those "venus - mars" thingies.

Yes a girl should accept if a boy doesn't want to be friends anymore. But she can still ask, if she really means it. If her friendship is just as much worth to him as a cat corpse... that's not really friendship.

If I ask someone "Do you know what time it is?" I do not literally want a yes or no answer, I want to know the time. "I wish I found someone like you" is not literally "anyone who is like you qualifies". They'll probably mean "I wish I found someone who I find attractive who's like you".

 

[joe-h2o]

extremely shallow, arrogant, hateful, and judgmental.

look little boy i dont give a damn what you think honestly lol and im typing on my phone do not have time to do a gramamr check. I could see if i was writing a school papaer but then again who are you a ncie guy who doesnt get laid lol

losers like you think woman owe you something and you despise the bad boys becasue they actually get girls and dont spend their time on the net pondering why women date attractive men

You seem to have an enormously high opinion of yourself, and you're now equating someone who disagrees with you on the internet as a "loser who thinks girls owe him something". I think you're projecting your inadequacies onto him. It is possible to disagree with your arguments (which have all been shallow, crass and immature) without automatically meaning that he agrees with the opposite, or that somehow "girls owe him something".

Your extreme lack of grammar and spelling (seriously, if you are on a phone then autocorrect must be turned off - I know for a fact that it changes im to I'm. I think it's more likely that you simply have limited command of the English language and hide behind that childish "this is not a school paper so legible and intelligible discourse doesn't matter!" argument when you get called on it, and really not helping your case, especially when you open with "look little boy" as some sort of derogatory comment that attempts to assert your superiority over him. Can you appreciate why someone might take issue with being looked down on from someone asserting that he's a loser when you can't be bothered to even try to use proper spelling and grammar on a message board where the sole means of communication is via that medium?

You're welcome to debate - the world thrives on it, since it would be a boring place if we all had the same opinions, but what you're doing isn't really debating; you're coming into a thread to safely snipe from the sidelines at guys who are airing their issues about the difficulties and complexities of relationships - a thread that was started by a woman with an arguably over-generalised premise, I might add (but that's what the debate is for).

Chill out a bit and lay off the ad hominem attacks and you might find it a bit more friendly around here.

I'm hoping this comment is not flying too close to the line, re: moderation. It's not my intent to flame you, merely to suggest why you might be getting a lot a flack in this thread and how you might address it.

 

[tobyornottoby]

Anyway, I'm done talking with someone who clearly only requires that someone have a good body and will jump into bed with them in a heartbeat.

Wouldn't that mean you are done talking to A LOT of men?

Really? I mean come on seriously? Women are just as bad as men. This whole "men only want sex" thing is really overdone. We're at a point in time where women are just as bad as men for cheating, sleeping around, and just wanting sex. And for your question, yes, I avoid talking to quite a few men and women because I have no respect for people that whore themselves out. Hell I can't remember the last time I got in contact with 70% of the people from my high school graduating class since most of the women were sluts, and the rest I just plain didn't know (500 people, couldn't be bothered to know them all). Seven got pregnant my senior year. The freshman class that year was bad too, six pregnant.

Sorry I just wanted to know whether you treated them equal, but seeing how you're saying you also don't talk to some men for whoring out, it seems you do.

That point in time you're talking about is as old as humanity itself. It might be more socially acceptable now, but yeah, both women and men have always been like that.

 

[Eamar]

Yeah, i've seen it happen both ways, it's not pretty and a real shame when the memory of what could have been a really fun two years of what you believe is genuine friendship gets suddenly and painfully transformed into something ugly. That is the danger of dating a self proclaimed "nice guy"... Also happens with Girls with major self-confidence issues and depression... A good sign to avoid as personal experience testifies...

Definitely this. I used to feel really sad when I looked back on our time together... we had some really good times, but I have to actively try to remember them now. The thing that sticks in my memory is the ugly bit.

You know, I was going through some old stuff the other day and found a little note from my ex of a few years back "Dear Adam, I love you sooo much and you are never allowed to leave me!".... That's like the loudest god-damn fog-horn of a warning you can give...

Depends on how long you've been together obviously (if you've been together years, plan to spend the rest of your lives together and are just joking around then obviously that's nothing sinister), but if that happened early on... pretty creepy.

Anyway, the point you make about idealising versions of people. Its very true, everyone does it to an extent. Most kid's always seem think their dad is better than anyone else's. Most girls looked at models with stick thin bodies and think their lives must be amazing. Most little boys think that driving fast cars and dating beautiful women is the ultimate life... Okay most blokes still do haha.

Eventually everyone grows up but the ones that don't are the ones that assume the one they lust over is perfect in every way and that they themselves are the perfect match for them. We've all done it at some point I'm sure. It's just part of growing up I guess. So your right, we shouldn't dismiss all people like that and assume they are horrible freaks to avoid, some people just need a little bit more time than others to mature (even in their mid twenties and above) and a few gentle words often goes a long long way.

Definitely. I probably fell into the idealising trap at the start of my first "serious" relationship (as in, one that lasted more than a few weeks). Liked the guy for ages, never really spent time with him properly (he was a friend's brother rather than one of my friends), got a load of unrealistic expectations into my head and then ended up having to realise how retarded I'd been after six months of being with the real him. There was nothing wrong with him or anything, but I'd built up so much of an idealised version of the poor guy that it probably contributed to us breaking up. Didn't even realise what I'd done until I thought about it after we'd broken up. However, while it was a stupid thing to do I don't think I'll do it again, so maybe it's worth it happening once.

Ouch...

I bet once he snapped/snaps out of it, he's going to feel grade A retarded. That must have been infuriating on your end.

Seriously, though from personal experience from being on the receiving end of treatment like that (IE, a jealous individual trying to drive a wedge between me and a then-girlfriend) I took it to heart as a philosophy "if two people are happy together, under no circumstance do you have any right to ruin it". Shame some people just don't get that.

Infuriating is precisely the right word. Though of course in that situation you have to try and avoid showing it, otherwise you're being a "*****" *sigh*

It was a long time ago though, and I think he eventually got a girlfriend he was well suited to. Maybe he learnt a thing or two from his earlier experiences

 

[Eamar]

Yeah, it's always the "nice guys" thinking that because it suits them, and in no way caused, say, by the woman complaining to said "nice guy" about how much of an assole her bf/husband/whatever is.

I'm going to quote something I said earlier in this thread because I can't be bothered to write it out again:

if she sees you as a friend she's bound to come to you with the worst aspects of her boyfriend- you might be a shoulder to cry on after they've had an argument, or when they break up for whatever reason. You're only getting one side of the story, and many times you'll probably only be hearing about the bad bits, because you don't exactly need to turn to your friends for support when everything's going great.

It's just part of friendship.

 

[Vegosiux]

It's just part of friendship.

Well, two things.

One, yes, that may be true, but my point was simply that "Her man is an asshole" isn't something "nice guys" just make up in their mind because they're butthurt. Honestly, if a woman tells a guy her man is an asshole, can you fault the guy for thinking the woman's man is an asshole?

Two, I'd say it's part of a "real" friendship, yes. But, call me cynical, maybe I'm just acting old and world-weary, but there's a distinction I see between a "real" friendship and a "let's just be friends" friendship. Mainly that the "real" one is a friendship that has always been that, and the "let's just be friends" friendship can sometimes be worth about as much as a cat's corpse. It may evolve into a "real" one over time, but really, if you start talking to a guy you just rejected about how your man is an asshole, don't be surprised if he goes "WTF". There's a time and a place for everything, and when the wounds are fresh, it's not time for it.

 

[JDLY]

So you become friends with a female, and you really like her in that way. You spend time with her, you're kind to her, and you're always doing her favors. Eventually you pluck up the courage to confess your attraction and then GASP! she doesn't like you that way, and wants to stay friends! So now you go to all your buddies and cry that you were "friend zoned". Oh my goodness how dare that biotch not have any romantic feelings towards you!! You weren't a jerk to her so you were entitled to a relationship with her! And since your plans to get a little action were in vain, you cease being friends with the girl. And now the girl is left without a friend, and the knowledge that you were only friends with her in hopes of getting in her pants.

What if the plan wasn't simply to "get in her pants" though. What if you liked the person, and simply wanted a relationship with somebody who you share interests with.

I say this because it happened to me. I firmly believe that having sex with somebody should only come after a stable relationship has been established. And while I know many people may not agree with me, I hold myself to that ideal. I had a female friend who i thought was a great person, and I simply wanted to be closer to her. However she did not see me in that way. I was upset, however I didn't go around whining about it.

We stayed friends (sort of) through high school. We talked, there was occasional tension, but as I said we stayed friends. Since then I've got to college and haven't seen her in two years.

I'm just curious as to your take if the guy actually wanted a relationship and not just some action.

(Also, in the long run she turned out not to be as great a person as I thought, so it turned out for the better anyway.)

 

[Riki Darnell]

as other's have said, it's when they say 'i'd like to meet someone just like you' that is annoying rather than the fact they don't have the same feelings.

As a girl I have used that line but sometimes you have to think about the context in how it's being used. I was friends with this guy since 7th grade and senior year he asked me out. I declined. I didn't find him unattractive or not interesting. I didn't want to chance ruining a good friendship. When I said "I'd like to find someone like you" I meant it. But someone that I haven't spent the past 5 years building a friendship with. If I like a guy I make it pretty clear I'm interested in him after the first few hangouts. That way if he doesn't like me no one really gets hurt cause we don't know each other that well.

On a side note I'd also like to say from my experience females take being put in the "friendzone" easier than guys. I've been rejected by 2 guys and to this day I'm still friends with them. But a few of the guys I've rejected tried to stay friends with me, but eventually stopped calling or wanting to hang out.

 

[museofdoom]

What if the plan wasn't simply to "get in her pants" though. What if you liked the person, and simply wanted a relationship with somebody who you share interests with.

I say this because it happened to me. I firmly believe that having sex with somebody should only come after a stable relationship has been established. And while I know many people may not agree with me, I hold myself to that ideal. I had a female friend who i thought was a great person, and I simply wanted to be closer to her. However she did not see me in that way. I was upset, however I didn't go around whining about it

I'm just curious as to your take if the guy actually wanted a relationship and not just some action.

(Also, in the long run she turned out not to be as great a person as I thought, so it turned out for the better anyway.)

Well the point I was trying to make is that it's not fair to the girl if the guy is friends with her for a while and the whole time the guy isn't up front about his feelings. And then suddenly the guy whips out the "I want a romantic relationship" card. Then when the girl doesn't feel the same way, the guy acts like she has wronged him in some way cause you know, god forbid she doesn't see you that way. My beef isn't with guys who develop feelings for a friend over time, it's with guys that are attracted to a girl but decide to be friends with her first in hopes of a relationship and then when it doesn't work out they abandon her. Then not only are you hurt, but so is the girl involved because it's like you didn't even want to be friends in the first place.

But in general, if a girl doesn't have feelings for you, she is NOT a bad person, and she didn't wrong you in any way!

To summarize: If you are attracted to a girl, tell her upfront instead of being friends first because that's kind of deceiving and not a very nice thing to do because in the end you will both have hurt feelings.

I hope I'm making sense here.

And (to everyone reading) sorry if my original post was a little vague in any way. I have a habit of being a tad ambiguous.

 

[SageRuffin]

I've never been "friend-zoned". Then again, by the time I'm able to establish a working friendship with a woman the want to ask her out has already long faded.

 

[Waaghpowa]

Do you realize how ridiculous whining about being "friend zoned" is? And that if you really wanna be a nice guy, that you should be nice to girls even if you don't want in their pants?

It is ridiculous. I have plenty of female friends that I have no intention of getting in bed with. In fact, one of my oldest friends is female. Known her since we were in kindergarten, so about 18 years now. I'm a nice guy simply because I try to be, not because I want something and because I think it's the right thing to do. I try to make my intentions clear if I have interest, and if I take too long in displaying that interest, well who's fault is that? I barely socialize as it is and it wouldn't make sense to me to be a "nice guy" in an attempt to manipulate if I'm an introvert.

When it comes to the woman I'm friends with, sex is the last thing on my mind.

 

[Eamar]

It's just part of friendship.

Well, two things.

One, yes, that may be true, but my point was simply that "Her man is an asshole" isn't something "nice guys" just make up in their mind because they're butthurt. Honestly, if a woman tells a guy her man is an asshole, can you fault the guy for thinking the woman's man is an asshole?

Two, I'd say it's part of a "real" friendship, yes. But, call me cynical, maybe I'm just acting old and world-weary, but there's a distinction I see between a "real" friendship and a "let's just be friends" friendship. Mainly that the "real" one is a friendship that has always been that, and the "let's just be friends" friendship can sometimes be worth about as much as a cat's corpse. It may evolve into a "real" one over time, but really, if you start talking to a guy you just rejected about how your man is an asshole, don't be surprised if he goes "WTF". There's a time and a place for everything, and when the wounds are fresh, it's not time for it.

Ah, I think we're talking about slightly different scenarios. I'm talking about when the woman actually does view it as a real friendship (either when no-one's said "let's just be friends" or when she actually believes the guy is over her or whatever).

No, I certainly can't blame a guy for taking her words at face value, but I also think it's something to try and be aware of. The same problem with only hearing one side of the worst parts of a relationship can also be what turns someone's parents against their child's perfectly normal partner, or makes friends dislike people they don't really know.

Obviously a lot depends on what we mean by her calling her partner an asshole as well. I mean, if she's talking about a complete lack of respect for her as a human being, someone who cheats, maybe even someone who's violent towards her, then obviously you have good reason for taking her at her word and having that bad opinion of her partner. If she's just angry and bitches about him after some smaller argument that'll be forgotten about in a week, then you have to be more careful about forming opinions of the guy.

 

[museofdoom]

TL;DR: OP is an attention-whore. Have fun.

I am extremely curious as to why this is.

Anyways back on topic: a few people mentioned girls who date total jerks or a guy that's the complete opposite of what they say they want in a guy. Well let's go back to my shoe metaphor: you originally set out for a pair of red shoes, you don't find any red shoes that suit your fancy but then you see a pair of black boots that are just totally awesome and you end up getting them. Sure they may not be ideal, and they have flaws but you really like them anyway for some reason. Sometimes girls (and guys are capable of doing this too) set out to find a knight in shining armor but end up with some guy who's not exactly what they were looking for but they like them anyway.

That's life, it happens, get over it.

 

[Thyunda]

I've never been "friend-zoned". Then again, by the time I'm able to establish a working friendship with a woman the want to ask her out has already long faded.

I've never been friend-zoned either...but...I somehow remain an option even when best buddies with the girl. Maybe it's because I'm not a nice, receptive guy. Like...I don't let people cry on my shoulder unless they want me to do something about it. I'm rather active and forward about things, so perhaps it works in my favour.