Censorship is REAL and ADVANCING
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True, but censoring illegal activity is that truly censoring? Maybe This doesn't bother me to much as my view of pirating is insanely small.theultimateend said:
In some countries speaking out against your government is illegal.sneakypenguin said:
Promoting your beliefs if they are in conflict with the religious powers of your nation.
Many times in the 20th century multiple countries had gathered the artwork of people they didn't agree with and burned it because it was against the governments point of view.
I'm asking where do you draw the line?
As I said earlier, a crime does not exist without a cause, what is causing the crimes you are attempting to censor to exist? If you aren't willing to investigate the cause then you cannot truly contain the effect.
Look, I can see where you're coming from, but I have 2 questions:
1)Is piracy illegal in Denmark?
2)Is free speech an explicitly granted right or an implied right in Denmark?
The way I see it, if the answer to 1 is No, then they had no right. If it's yes, then they did, because they're only blocking what is against the law to them. It's quite a leap to go from blocking something totally illegal and blocking a legit site.
Oh, and 2 had nothing to do with my argument, I'm just curious, I've heard a lot of countries only have it as an implied right.
1)Is piracy illegal in Denmark?
2)Is free speech an explicitly granted right or an implied right in Denmark?
The way I see it, if the answer to 1 is No, then they had no right. If it's yes, then they did, because they're only blocking what is against the law to them. It's quite a leap to go from blocking something totally illegal and blocking a legit site.
Oh, and 2 had nothing to do with my argument, I'm just curious, I've heard a lot of countries only have it as an implied right.
No idea what you all where talking about but here's my 2 cents on this little paragraph.theultimateend said:
While income of business and wages might not have a correlation, worker skill and rarity do. Minimum wage does nothing really to increase employee wages, it's all in the rarity and desire of the company to maintain a good workforce. It's three times as expensive to train new workers as it is to retain old ones, so most companies will maintain a sufficient salary to retain people(which is usually much much higher than minimum wage) Which is why target will pay cashiers 9 bucks an hour when minimum wage is what 650ish?
I actually can not think of a company that pays just minimum wage, because no one will really work for that. other than waiters but they get tips on top of that.
If you are that disillusioned with the industries of which you speak, then you should stop watching and playing games. Stating that the product isn't up to scratch and therefore you should be allowed to steal it doesn't work. Simply, either pay for what you watch or dont watch it.theultimateend said:[rant]
If people are possess attention spans that they cannot read what I said then they should just never know. This TLR phenomenon is absolutely ridiculous. It's one of the major annoyances I have about the internet these days. It's another reason I detest MLA and APA format, I should NOT tell you the exact page in a journal entry I found my information on. Because information is easily misconstrued, instead you should (like I) read the entire article to get a better understanding of the information. I refuse to believe anyone on the internet is so short on time that they can't read a few paragraphs. If people are that busy they aren't on a gaming forum.
[/rant]
While it may be my opinion but any form of entertainment stops taking risks the moment "Industry" is slapped onto the end of it.
The Music Industry
The Movie Industry
The Gaming Industry
The moment it becomes an industry it no longer takes risks. This has been true long before piracy was even a blip on the radar.
But again it is a good scape goat, it's one of the better ones they've used. Just like they used to blame the cost of stocking shelves with products for the cost increase in games and then when companies switched to digital media downloads the cost didn't drop at all. In fact now I can many times get games cheaper by buying a physical copy than by owning an ethereal one that may or may not work when the company eventually goes under.
The pirate bay may be all about piracy (it isn't but thats not relevant to my point), but it is no worse that the other major torrent sites (mininova, torrentspy etc), in fact it is better.cleverlymadeup said:
1. I'll sum it up, piracy is only illegal if you don't own the license to use the game, the piratebay doesn't actually break any laws, I can quite legally download myself a hacked version of crysis, wander down to whoever polices copyright infringement and boast about how pirated it is, they cannot do anything as it is completely legal (actually they would probably tell me to stop wasting their time), I own the game and can modify it however I see fit, and can legally use/aquire backup copys.
2. The piratebay has a large range of trackers, that are free. Small developers and people with freeware will use this because its free. Why should they have to pay for bandwidth and domain when they are supplying a free product? Many don't.
3. The pirate bay also has legal permission to host trackers and has no direct relationship with pirates, what's your point there? It's just the name of a site that provides a P2P bittorent service.
4. Yes there are other methods for indie developers to distribute their material, however the larger torrent sites like the pirate bay are consistant, rarely crash and are familiar to a lot of their users, how is it fair for them to change service because you don't like the name of the site?
5. If piratebay gets shut down who's to say the other (often worse) sites won't get shut down? They will have a legal example of when they have done so and the censorship bandwagon rolls on.
Nobody has been able to provide a valid, legal reason why the piratebay should be shut down. Unless that changes (which would follow a change of law) you can get off your high horse and stop claiming that the piratebay is an evil place, it's no worse than rapidshare or megaupload. You cannot stop piracy, taking away freedom of information and free internet services is moronic.
Then if speaking out against your government is illegal then I would say they are well within their right to censor, not that I would follow that being the freedom loving person I am.theultimateend said:
I still retain my original view, if it's illegal then fine censor it. If you don't like it then change your government.
What's causing the crime is the lack of will to pay for things, some may say I just use it to try it out, well that might be the case but for most not so. Also I find it a weak excuse as now days info is available if you can't make up your mind if a product is good or can run then your beyond help. Anyways I think I strayed on a rabit trail there.
*begins slow clap*jim_doki said:If you are that disillusioned with the industries of which you speak, then you should stop watching and playing games. Stating that the product isn't up to scratch and therefore you should be allowed to steal it doesn't work. Simply, either pay for what you watch or dont watch it.theultimateend said:[rant]
If people are possess attention spans that they cannot read what I said then they should just never know. This TL
[/rant]
While it may be my opinion but any form of entertainment stops taking risks the moment "Industry" is slapped onto the end of it.
The Music Industry
The Movie Industry
The Gaming Industry
The moment it becomes an industry it no longer takes risks. This has been true long before piracy was even a blip on the radar.
But again it is a good scape goat, it's one of the better ones they've used. Just like they used to blame the cost of stocking shelves with products for the cost increase in games and then when companies switched to digital media downloads the cost didn't drop at all. In fact now I can many times get games cheaper by buying a physical copy than by owning an ethereal one that may or may not work when the company eventually goes under.
*sees no one else is joining in*
*stops*
Well the other people were right you really don't get the point.jim_doki said:If you are that disillusioned with the industries of which you speak, then you should stop watching and playing games. Stating that the product isn't up to scratch and therefore you should be allowed to steal it doesn't work. Simply, either pay for what you watch or dont watch it.theultimateend said:[rant]
If people are possess attention spans that they cannot read what I said then they should just never know. This TL
[/rant]
While it may be my opinion but any form of entertainment stops taking risks the moment "Industry" is slapped onto the end of it.
The Music Industry
The Movie Industry
The Gaming Industry
The moment it becomes an industry it no longer takes risks. This has been true long before piracy was even a blip on the radar.
But again it is a good scape goat, it's one of the better ones they've used. Just like they used to blame the cost of stocking shelves with products for the cost increase in games and then when companies switched to digital media downloads the cost didn't drop at all. In fact now I can many times get games cheaper by buying a physical copy than by owning an ethereal one that may or may not work when the company eventually goes under.
If they want piracy to stop all they have to do is provide quality products at reasonable prices.
I'm quite certain most piracy involves downloading something, realizing it is crap, and deleting it. At least in an alternate universe I know there is a copy of me that does that and he's happy he's not scammed into a 50 dollar purchase he cannot return.
I'd also like to note that piracy in the gaming world started accelerating about the point most companies stopped providing demo's.
If you aren't willing to look at both sides of an argument then you shouldn't discuss it at all. I agree that people shouldn't pirate, but all you'd see change is that companies would start blaming their consumers.
Good example being limited installs on games, who does that hurt? You the honest customer.
Move to Washington state, almost every non-national company here does.sneakypenguin said:
Don't get me wrong Circuit City paid me 11 dollars an hour before they got new leadership and fired anyone making 'too much'. Lest us ignore that fact I was bringing in 10k dollars a month on average in sales (in roadshop where they had huge profit margins), 11 dollars an hour was too much.
I'd have to say that censorship is never acceptable. However, if you just go shut down The Pirate Bay, that's great. Don't set precedent for censorship by just blocking access to it.sneakypenguin said:
Thing is though there is a point where it is cheaper to get new people making less, I mean not knocking you but there are millions out there that can sell TVs or whatnot and guess what most would be willing to do it for 8 bucks an hour.theultimateend said:
So they can get the 10k in sales from an 8 dollar guy then I say too bad, its just good business sense as long as it doesn't adversely affect morale.
It doesn't matter if it's quality or not, you want to use it, you pay. Otherwise it illegal. End of story.theultimateend said:
If someone downloaded a game, realized it was bad, and deleted it, they get no sympathy. They're breaking the law, justify it however you like.
Take a look at what Australia is trying... It makes China's control on the net look tame by comparison. Rudds government is trying to push it under the guise of 'protecting the children' but of the sites they are telling us they want to block less then 1% are related to crimes against children and those sites: ARE ALREADY ILLEGAL. The government refuses to release the whole list of sites it will have blocked, if the laws get passed, and what it isn't telling us is what should get you really worried.
Oh, it will have the power to censor the net at a whim, adding any site it wants to the list when it wants, without anyone being able to stop them. That is the 'requirements' for the government to block a site: because we said so.
PS: The internet community proved within five seconds just why these plans will not work to begin with and how spending millions, even billions, to censor the net is just stupid. In short: PROXY.
Oh, it will have the power to censor the net at a whim, adding any site it wants to the list when it wants, without anyone being able to stop them. That is the 'requirements' for the government to block a site: because we said so.
PS: The internet community proved within five seconds just why these plans will not work to begin with and how spending millions, even billions, to censor the net is just stupid. In short: PROXY.
1) Of course piracy is against the law, the problem is that the website wasn't, since it was a medium at made aware that it did not support or endorse any illegal torrents that was uploaded.orannis62 said:
2) Yes, freedom of speech is secured by law in Denmark. In fact the law specifically states "There can be no such thing as censorship or regulations of freedom speech".
ok, if you do a search for piracy on the website, you will see that this argument pops up a lot. A common factor in most of these threads is that I am in there doing the best i can to explain to people like you that piracy is wrong. I understand every side of the argument. There's no need to get insulting.theultimateend said:
Piracy skyrocketed when it became easier to do. there are still lots of companys putting demos out. I would like to see figures on that if you dont mind. Also, who are you to decide what is a reasonable product? for years people have demanded their money back from the cinema for a movie they don't like.
as for your limited install argument, i totally agree. it's hurting people it shouldn't be. Unfortunately there's little else we can do about it at the moment. I do, however, think that the backlash for somebody trying to protect their investment by ensuring that it's used in the proper way was unwarrented and unfair
1)Thanks for answering my questions.s0denone said:
2)How can you claim that a site called "piratebay" doesn't know there's piracy going on?