Censorship is REAL and ADVANCING

[Malkavian]

3. The pirate bay also has legal permission to host trackers and has no direct relationship with pirates, what's your point there? It's just the name of a site that provides a P2P bittorent service.

actually that legality is thru a loop hole in sweedish law, this is the ONLY reason why they are operating. if they weren't in Sweeden they'd have been arrested and shut down a long time ago

I highly doubt it. Providing the opportunity to choose to act illegal, is not illegal in itself. If it were, you would have to ban life.

no it's true they often flaunt it in many many interviews they've given, that's why they are still up and running, it's their main theme

What I disputed was not there being a loophole - I just highly doubt that any other country would have shot them down.

yup they've tried but due to Sweedish law they can't be extradited, check out the "Legal Threats" section of their website if you don't believe me

Oh, I believe you. What I am saying, and that you might have understood, is that the same "loophole" is in danish law. And I am ready to wager that it is in others too.

and yes intent is part of breaking the law, there is such a thing called "attempted" in the law books, such as attempted break and enter, attempted murder, attempted assault and attempted rape

Attempt and intent is not the same, mind you. Attempt is an action, intent is the decission to perform an action. It is not the same, not at all. Attempted rape is grapping the woman, tearing her close off, but being stopped in the process. Damage has still been done, and we know this man to be a criminal. Intended rape is wanting to do so, being set to rape someone, but enver taking action, either voluntarily, or through some outer force. The important difference is that no damage is done, and that it is impossible to prove guilt. If a man intents to rape his sister, but by accident she is killed in a car crash before he had the chance, is he then a criminal? Has he actually committed any wrong? And that's just where the individual is prevented - every individual may also has a change of heart. Would that make one a criminal?

acutally it is part of the law, for any law to be broken, you must have intent, your full mental capacity and knowledge of the law. they've got a lot of stalkers this way as they haven't done anything but they've found out they intended to do something

Of course it is part of the law. I am not saying it isn't. I am saying that it isn't punishable when it is intent alone. At least, not in Denmark. I hope for your country it isn't either. I am interested in your example with stalkers. Care to elaborate?

You seem to be missing the point that thepiratebay has torrents that are pefectly legal.

you miss it that the vast majority of the torrents there are illegal

to pull an example that is like having 10 gigs of porn, however 9.5 gigs are child porn, 500 megs are normal porn, that doesn't make the collection any better, it's still very illegal

It is not the same thing. The difference is, that if a man has said batch of porn, he has illegal files, and as such, can be tried and punished by a court. The pirate bay does not host any files. Now, if the pirate bay only had illegal torrents, then I would feel okay with the blocking, since any usage of the site will be in the carrying out of legal acts. It would not be possible to prosecute the owners of the piratebay, but censorship of the site would be perfectly understandable and okay, since the site cannot serve any other usage than as a medium in crime to it's users. But it is not so. There are legal torrents, and as such, thepiratebay has legal uses.
Now, before you counterargue that "providing contact between peers so that they might exchange pirated material" is illegal, let me tell you that it isn't according to danish law. There is no law that thepiratebay violates. I don't know how it is in switzerland, and I don't care. It is not the issue. If what thepiratebay did was wrong according to danish law, I would have no problem. But there has been an error in the way danish court ruled, and it has lead to censorship of a site. Censorship is illegal, according to the danish constitution.

Thank you for the evaluation of my argument. It carries precisely as much relevance to the discussion as yours does, for it is a ounterargument to yours. I didn't chose the different points we debare. You did.

with no proof it is no longer an argument and is irrelevant to the discussion

And I saw no proof for yours either. Saying "I have friends who are lawyers" is not a proof.

I can't name a developer, since the world of software is not really my field of expertise, but I can name artists... Nine Inch Nails is chief among them - Trent Reznor not only provides his latest albums for free off his website, but is a known defender of P2P and filesharing, being an avid user of them. Jonathan Coulton has explicitly stated on his website that he doesn't give a damn whether people download his music off torrent sites, or burns cds for their friends, etc. Radiohead gave away their latest album for free, and Jamiroquai and Oasis is expected to follow that same road. Radiohead, Oasis and Jamiroquai may not have used thepiratebay as a distribution site - but Radiohead wouldn't have minded if a torrent was up there(and thus, providing people with a different download option, instead of just the regular "Save As..." from their own website.

actually Trent has also had a lot of known disputes with his record label, they aren't developers tho and primarily release their stuff thru their own websites

the fact that they are doing this doesn't make the piratebay any less illegal, i'm well aware of the difference between free as in speech or beer stuff and pirated material

Trent has had and released through his own record label, Nothing, since 1992... I doubt he himself would be in dispute with himself...

And as said above, thepiratebay is not illegal according to danish law.

Oh, and you know, now some software springs to mind... Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning uses P2P distribution for it's client.

yes and so does Blizzard with WoW, i never disputed the illegality of p2p software, my point is dealing exactly with the piratebay

And that point is wrong, at least withing the boundaries of danish law.

But whether or not there are legal torrents to be found on thepiratebay is WITHOUT RELEVANCE. The questions is whether it should be considered illegal to provide the opportunity to access illegal material. With that question in mind, it doesn't matter whether there are legal torrents, 'cause as long as there are illegal ones, the question remains.

actually providing ppl with illegal stuff is illegal as well

And thepiratebay doesn't. A torrent is not illegal in itself. It is not illegal to have a torrent lying on your desktop. Utilizing the torrent in a torrentclient is. You don't ban the postal service because someone sends an illegal parcel. Granted, the illegal stuff on thepiratebay is torrents that leads to illegal material. But that is in itself not ilelgal. At least not according to danish law.

It's still censorship. When communism was considered illegal in the United States, were pro-communist articles and such not censored? Censorship can easily be directed towards what is illegal(even though, it is not, in this case with thepiratebay, just following your reasoning), and indeed almost always is.

yes and all those ppl were also let go after they were found to have their rights violated

How lucky the penalty wasn't death then, huh? So... The ISP's and the danish court will also stop blocking thepiratebay once they realize that they have violated our rights? Those rights being the rights to freedom and free act.

how have your rights been violated? you are yourself commiting an illegal act by download something, therefore becoming a criminal and by that measure forfeiting your rights as a citizen of your country

My rights are violated the second that it is decided what I can view and cannot, without backing of danish law. I am protected from censorship by the danish constitution, and yet the danish ISP's are forced to block off sites.
I used thepiratebay - my Asus EEE runs linux, and I used thepiratebay to acquire a lot of stuff for me to optimize and customize it.

so i'm guessing you also think censoring child porn is a bad idea, i mean it's censorship so therefore it has to be a bad thing

That's funny. Again, we have childpord brought up, because, that seems to be very relevant card to play... Childporn is illegal. It clearly vioalates the law. thepiratebay does not. It provides the opportunity to do something illegal, but thepiratebay in itself has never uploaded pirated music. The two things are not the same at all.

actually it is very relevant because pirating software IS illegal and clearly violates the law and yes providing access to it is also illegal

Pirating software is illegal, I think we've established that quite enough times... I do not condone of piracy. I love music, and holds a firm belief that if an artist wants to be paid for his art, then it is the right thing to do, to pay him.

and no you weren't following my reason, you are trying to use truthiness and failing miserably at it

You can tell yourself that, but I took the same argument you presented, and applied it to a different situation. It is the same argument. Is this the point where I state that I have had classes in argumentational theory and propositional logic, and expect it to give me some kind of omnipotent authority, like as if I, lets see, had said that I took som law classes and know a lot of lawyers and cops?

wrong you applied truthiness, you just made stuff up without having any real knowledge which makes your point wrong. the fact is i have paid attention to law and the legal dealings of the warez community and i do have friends that on the side of the law. you taking an argument course is totally worthless for bringing up actual factual based arguments, you use what is called truthiness which isn't the same as cold hard facts

I still have not seen you supply any cold hard facts either. I only brought up that I have taken an argumetn course, becuase you seem to believe that just because you claim to have taken a law course, you are automatically right. That is complete rubbish. What if I had claimed to have takn a law course? Would that make me instantly correct as well? When you start backing your claims with proof, then we're talking. Until then, you can try and criticize the way I argue as much as you want, but you are no better yourself.

and no the pirate bay is illegal except for in Sweeden, in america and other countries they've been found to violate copyright laws as they allow you to break the law

Well, that's what this thread is about, right? We disagree with any thoughts along those lines. Claiming that "the court has found it illlegal, thus it must be!" is claiming the court is unable to be wrong. And that would be wrong. I'm not saying that that is what you are saying... But I think it is.

actually this demonstrates how much you don't know about law and are basing all your arguments on truthiness.

ok this is the way the courts and laws work. first they must make a law, those laws are based on what the average person would see as being right or wrong, this doesn't make it concrete, however if it does go to the courts they will make a decision on the validity of the laws, such as if it violates your rights or existing laws, if it does violate anytyhing the law is struck down, if not it is upheld and therefore has precedence, meaning it has more sticking power than it did before as the law has been made explicitly clear

BUT THERE IS NO LAW NI DENMARK ABOUT THIS! I know how the bloody law works... Quit dancing around and adress the actual problem. If you can't be bothered to research what the actual problem is, why do you argue?

Now I have, above. Yes, you clearly seem to know much better than we do. You know, sometimes, it is a good idea to consider that there might be things that you don't know. It would have taken a few googlesearchs, and then you'd have known about NiN, Jonathan Coulton, Radiohead, WAR, and whatnot.

no you haven't, i said on the piratebay, not from anyone else. keep trying tho

You can find NiN, WAR, Jonathan Coulton, and much more, on the piratebay.

It carries very little authority in an argument to claim that you know someone who might, and might not be, experts on the field that we discuss. I formed my previous post with one of my best friends, who happens to be studying law, and he agreed with my statements.
However, it doesn't matter how many lawyers either of us know. It is a very stupid, and very irrellevant argument.
I argue from a point of danish law and values. You argue from a point of... whatever country you come from. I can't tell you how thepiratebay is considered in the United States, but I can tell you that what has happened in Danish court is a huge mistake, when you look at Danihs laws.

actually your statements have many flaws without any facts backing them up, even the "proof" you've offered has no relevance to the argument, ie i've asked for examples on the piratebay and you've offered me other sources. i'm glad your friend doesn't represent me in court cause i'd be screwed

I'd rather have my friend reperesenting me than yours. After all, I believe my danish law student has better understanding of danish law, than your swiss cops and lawyers.

 

[teh_gunslinger]

This whole topic has been very interesting and I'm surprised how many people feel okay with private companies deciding what is watchable and what is not.

New development is: *drum roll* IFPI wants to censor more sites but they wont as of yet tell which ones. I guess it's none of our business.
As I said before on this thread: the end of this is that they need to block all of the interblag. Google allows me to find torrents. Block it now! Meh. Fuck it. If you don't want to see where it's going it's your problem.

 

[xXGeckoXx]

Im going t keep pirating things....

if censorship comes life will not be worth living so nobody would be able to do it.

 

[Marbas]

WAAAAAH

THEY'RE PREVENTING ME FROM BREAKING THE LAW.

That's not censorship, it's a sensible response to piracy that should have been implemented a long time ago. The Pirate Bay is almost universally used for stealing shit. That's why it's called THE PIRATE BAY. It has tons of illegal content on it.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

I'm just quoting you so you get a PM

too bad i turned that off a while ago as it got annoying, you fail again

Child pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry and among the fastest growing criminal segments on the Internet, according to the USA The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (ICMEC) and other international sources.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16] - Wikipedia

IE. It's not on the recession. Likewise if you think it is you might want to do some research into concealing images and files within other images. It's a common practice that is very difficult to track (as it is utterly invisible until someone tells you about it).

wow so you believe some non-profit organization that has it's own agenda. that means that what they are saying should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt, it's much like the Parents Televisions Council, who hold the record for the most fcc complaints by one group or a group like PETA

i'd prefer to use actual crime figures. without actual crime statistics your arguments are actually worthless as the articles and stats all come from fear mongering groups, who's job it is to scare ppl

What I disputed was not there being a loophole - I just highly doubt that any other country would have shot them down.

yup they've tried but due to Sweedish law they can't be extradited, check out the "Legal Threats" section of their website if you don't believe me[/quote]
Oh, I believe you. What I am saying, and that you might have understood, is that the same "loophole" is in danish law. And I am ready to wager that it is in others too.
[/quote]

not really only russia and/or china would allow something like that

Of course it is part of the law. I am not saying it isn't. I am saying that it isn't punishable when it is intent alone. At least, not in Denmark. I hope for your country it isn't either. I am interested in your example with stalkers. Care to elaborate?

see stalkers don't always DO something illegal, there are times where they are caught and they intend to kill someone. also the whole chris hanson thing, none of them had sex with a young girl however they INTENDED to and got arrested and charged

You seem to be missing the point that thepiratebay has torrents that are pefectly legal.

you miss it that the vast majority of the torrents there are illegal

to pull an example that is like having 10 gigs of porn, however 9.5 gigs are child porn, 500 megs are normal porn, that doesn't make the collection any better, it's still very illegal

It is not the same thing. The difference is, that if a man has said batch of porn, he has illegal files, and as such, can be tried and punished by a court. The pirate bay does not host any files. Now, if the pirate bay only had illegal torrents, then I would feel okay with the blocking, since any usage of the site will be in the carrying out of legal acts. It would not be possible to prosecute the owners of the piratebay, but censorship of the site would be perfectly understandable and okay, since the site cannot serve any other usage than as a medium in crime to it's users. But it is not so. There are legal torrents, and as such, thepiratebay has legal uses.
Now, before you counterargue that "providing contact between peers so that they might exchange pirated material" is illegal, let me tell you that it isn't according to danish law. There is no law that thepiratebay violates. I don't know how it is in switzerland, and I don't care. It is not the issue. If what thepiratebay did was wrong according to danish law, I would have no problem. But there has been an error in the way danish court ruled, and it has lead to censorship of a site. Censorship is illegal, according to the danish constitution.

Thank you for the evaluation of my argument. It carries precisely as much relevance to the discussion as yours does, for it is a ounterargument to yours. I didn't chose the different points we debare. You did.

with no proof it is no longer an argument and is irrelevant to the discussion

And I saw no proof for yours either. Saying "I have friends who are lawyers" is not a proof.

you still have yet to provide examples from the piratebay, which is the proof i've asked for

I can't name a developer, since the world of software is not really my field of expertise, but I can name artists... Nine Inch Nails is chief among them - Trent Reznor not only provides his latest albums for free off his website, but is a known defender of P2P and filesharing, being an avid user of them. Jonathan Coulton has explicitly stated on his website that he doesn't give a damn whether people download his music off torrent sites, or burns cds for their friends, etc. Radiohead gave away their latest album for free, and Jamiroquai and Oasis is expected to follow that same road. Radiohead, Oasis and Jamiroquai may not have used thepiratebay as a distribution site - but Radiohead wouldn't have minded if a torrent was up there(and thus, providing people with a different download option, instead of just the regular "Save As..." from their own website.

actually Trent has also had a lot of known disputes with his record label, they aren't developers tho and primarily release their stuff thru their own websites

the fact that they are doing this doesn't make the piratebay any less illegal, i'm well aware of the difference between free as in speech or beer stuff and pirated material

Trent has had and released through his own record label, Nothing, since 1992... I doubt he himself would be in dispute with himself...

And as said above, thepiratebay is not illegal according to danish law.

oh how wrong you are, see while he HAS his own label imprint the label he has released stuff thru up to Ghosts is NOT nothing, it's actually Universal Music/Interscope, although Pretty Hate Machine, Fixed and Broken were released on TVT

so yeah he would have disputes, had them with both Universal AND TVT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Inch_Nails#Corporate_entanglements

And that point is wrong, at least withing the boundaries of danish law.

actually no EU law supersedes Danish law, so it is illegal

And thepiratebay doesn't. A torrent is not illegal in itself. It is not illegal to have a torrent lying on your desktop. Utilizing the torrent in a torrentclient is. You don't ban the postal service because someone sends an illegal parcel. Granted, the illegal stuff on thepiratebay is torrents that leads to illegal material. But that is in itself not ilelgal. At least not according to danish law.

actually it can be considered intent to distribute, which is illegal

My rights are violated the second that it is decided what I can view and cannot, without backing of danish law. I am protected from censorship by the danish constitution, and yet the danish ISP's are forced to block off sites.
I used thepiratebay - my Asus EEE runs linux, and I used thepiratebay to acquire a lot of stuff for me to optimize and customize it.

ok and since they don't offer the source code they are NOW in violation of the GPL which has been tested and held up in court as a legally binding agreement

also you can easily get those files from other sources, such as sourceforge or the developers webpage, where the source code is offered, there by making distribution of the file legal

Pirating software is illegal, I think we've established that quite enough times... I do not condone of piracy. I love music, and holds a firm belief that if an artist wants to be paid for his art, then it is the right thing to do, to pay him.

oh but you think a site that allows for the stealing of software is ok? you deny someone of their right and yet think it's their right to collect payment for their work? kinda doesn't make sense really

BUT THERE IS NO LAW NI DENMARK ABOUT THIS! I know how the bloody law works... Quit dancing around and adress the actual problem. If you can't be bothered to research what the actual problem is, why do you argue?

you've yet to offer me ANY proof of your outlandish claims of things, you say "well this is possible" but have yet to give me any good examples

You can find NiN, WAR, Jonathan Coulton, and much more, on the piratebay.

ok so any NiN that is not from ghosts or the slip, is illegal
so is any WAR stuff on there

there's tons of illegal files and very few legal, all those linux apps you liked to download are illegally offered according to the GPL

I'd rather have my friend reperesenting me than yours. After all, I believe my danish law student has better understanding of danish law, than your swiss cops and lawyers.

where are you getting swiss from? i'm not swiss, never been there but i do hear they have some good chocolate and make some pretty good watches as well

also about danish law, there are laws that are applied world wide through various agreements, such as the Berne Convention, which Denmark has signed, also there's the WTO and EU, so there's more than just Danish law at play, which your friend would easily be able to tell you when dealing with international things, i'm not a lawyer and even i knew that

 

[theultimateend]

Child pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry and among the fastest growing criminal segments on the Internet, according to the USA The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), the International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (ICMEC) and other international sources.[10][11][12][13][14][15][16] - Wikipedia

IE. It's not on the recession. Likewise if you think it is you might want to do some research into concealing images and files within other images. It's a common practice that is very difficult to track (as it is utterly invisible until someone tells you about it).

wow so you believe some non-profit organization that has it's own agenda. that means that what they are saying should be taken with a LARGE grain of salt, it's much like the Parents Televisions Council, who hold the record for the most fcc complaints by one group or a group like PETA

i'd prefer to use actual crime figures. without actual crime statistics your arguments are actually worthless as the articles and stats all come from fear mongering groups, who's job it is to scare ppl

Likewise I'd like you to provide statistics that state otherwise. Instead of talking out your bum .

Plus considering multiple times reputable sources have stated that Wikipedia is in many cases as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica says something. For every one instance that you can find of an edit for laughs you can find 25k articles that are highly accurate.

 

[vfaulkon]

I seriously doubt any kind of censorship wave will ever stick the way any government wants it to, and I say this because the historical precedents tell me so.

Partially censor something, and people will find a way to slip it in somehow.
Fully censor something, and people will take it underground.
Stamp out underground activity (if any government truly can), and people will begin to remove themselves from wherever they are.
Force them to stick around, and you've got a full-blown rebellion just begging to start up.

Any leading figure in politics that got at least a C in their World History class in high school probably realizes that full-on censorship is not a good idea that will invariably end in disaster for all parties involved. So I'm not too concerned - it'll work itself out one way or another.

 

[theultimateend]

I seriously doubt any kind of censorship wave will ever stick the way any government wants it to, and I say this because the historical precedents tell me so.

Partially censor something, and people will find a way to slip it in somehow.
Fully censor something, and people will take it underground.
Stamp out underground activity (if any government truly can), and people will begin to remove themselves from wherever they are.
Force them to stick around, and you've got a full-blown rebellion on your hands.

Any leading figure in politics that got at least a C in their World History class in high school probably realizes that full-on censorship is not a good idea that will invariably end in disaster for all parties involved. So I'm not too concerned - it'll work itself out one way or another.

Yeah it's pretty obvious that it never works.

Unfortunately it only takes a few jackasses to think it actually works to get it put into place.

The only people you stop are those that were teetering on the edge and they are a minority of the minority.

 

[vfaulkon]

And those too afraid to get their sleeves dirty. Still, the best thing I think we, as free-thinkin' folk, can do is voice our concerns with the people who can actually affect things. They may not listen to us directly, but even the thickest government official will realize there's a problem when their inbox is inundated daily with thousands of the people under them sending e-mails with the subject, 'Fuck you!'

Disclaimer: I do not actually encourage people to send e-mails with the subject 'Fuck You!', as those will likely be deleted without having been read due to the fact that such a heading does not indicate rational thought and as such is not worth noting. Given some of the idiots roaming the intarwebs these days, I just thought I should make that clear...

 

[MomoTheCow]

Sorry, but even as a sometimes user of the *Pirate* Bay, I've all the more respect for Denmark for this.

This isn't censorship, it's policework.

 

[Malkavian]

Sorry, but even as a sometimes user of the *Pirate* Bay, I've all the more respect for Denmark for this.

This isn't censorship, it's policework.

No, it's not. This is not covered by Danish law. What has been done is in fact, illegal.


@cleverlymadeup:
Several things...
1. You continue your tired rant of "You offer me no proof!" but you yourself has offered nothing either.
2. I would like to repeat: You can say all you want about what is illegal, but I still doubt you, or your friends, for that matter, has any insight into danish law. I have told you, and I have no idea why you continue to ignore it, that the problem, the very reason for this thread, is that there is no danish law that makes thepiratebay illegal. Your statement that the only other countries than sweden that has such loopholes that would allow thepiratebay, is China and Russia, strikes me as funny, since China is one of the only three countries in the world that blocks it. EU law has, to my knowledge, no law on this area. Your claim, so the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Furthermore, that EU has a law does not automatically make it applicable in Denmark, as you would know if you had standard knowledge about EU and the interelations between the members and EU.
3. I am utterly flabbergasted as to why you continue. I am not arguing whether it is wrong or right, I am citing fact. Whether or not there are legal torrents on thepiratebay is irrellevant. It has nothing to do with how Danish law treats wat thepiratebay does. But if you yourself stated that Ghosts was released through his own label, then there, there's your legal torrent.

I am pulling out of this discussion. We are getting nowhere, and we are equally stubborn. I would claim that I have facts and truth on my side, but hey, so would you... I just hope that anyone reading this, and forming an oppinion on this, will keep in mind that you are a swiss man, with swiss lawyer-friends, that are claiming to know how danish law functions, and knowing better so than a danish law class, and numerous danish experts on the danish constitution that have commented on this case.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

Likewise I'd like you to provide statistics that state otherwise. Instead of talking out your bum .

Plus considering multiple times reputable sources have stated that Wikipedia is in many cases as accurate as Encyclopedia Britannica says something. For every one instance that you can find of an edit for laughs you can find 25k articles that are highly accurate.

the groups mentioned in the wikiepedia article are the same partisan groups with their own agenda, it's much like reading an article on the increase in animal cruelty written by peta

as for actual arrest stats, i really don't have time to go to each country and check out their crime stats, however they just disproved several of the points that those groups like to make, such as how much kids are actually propositioned online.

Several things...
1. You continue your tired rant of "You offer me no proof!" but you yourself has offered nothing either.

you were the one offering claims, i shot your's all down and pretty easily, the burden of proof lies on you not me, since you were making claims

2. I would like to repeat: You can say all you want about what is illegal, but I still doubt you, or your friends, for that matter, has any insight into danish law. I have told you, and I have no idea why you continue to ignore it, that the problem, the very reason for this thread, is that there is no danish law that makes thepiratebay illegal. Your statement that the only other countries than sweden that has such loopholes that would allow thepiratebay, is China and Russia, strikes me as funny, since China is one of the only three countries in the world that blocks it. EU law has, to my knowledge, no law on this area. Your claim, so the burden of proof is on your shoulders. Furthermore, that EU has a law does not automatically make it applicable in Denmark, as you would know if you had standard knowledge about EU and the interelations between the members and EU.

ok let's look at the exact wording of it

Any person shall be at liberty to publish his ideas in print, in writing, and in speech, subject to his being held responsible in a court of law. Censorship and other preventive measures shall never again be introduced.

ok notice that? that said SPEECH and torrents are not speech, means your argument fails yet again

3. I am utterly flabbergasted as to why you continue. I am not arguing whether it is wrong or right, I am citing fact. Whether or not there are legal torrents on thepiratebay is irrellevant. It has nothing to do with how Danish law treats wat thepiratebay does. But if you yourself stated that Ghosts was released through his own label, then there, there's your legal torrent.

that's only one but harkens back to my argument of 100 megs of legal porn in a 10 gig child porn collection, also there's not total proof that someone hasn't changed the recording, which means they MUST offer the original, so a torrent of Ghosts might actually be illegal according to the license

I am pulling out of this discussion. We are getting nowhere, and we are equally stubborn. I would claim that I have facts and truth on my side, but hey, so would you... I just hope that anyone reading this, and forming an oppinion on this, will keep in mind that you are a swiss man, with swiss lawyer-friends, that are claiming to know how danish law functions, and knowing better so than a danish law class, and numerous danish experts on the danish constitution that have commented on this case.

i'm not stubborn, i just happen to know how copyright and laws work. i still have no clue where you're getting this swiss thing from. i'm not swiss, never been there, never lived there AND i have no friends who are swiss. so i'd really like to know where you're getting tat from, i mean even if you click on my profile you'll easily tell the country of origin and i have stated it numerous times on this site

 

[Malkavian]

I did get teh swiss from your profile. Apparently, I looked wrong. You are a canadian. What does that change, however? Are you any closer to a first hand knowledge of danish law? Are your friends?

As for the rest, I have no comment. My last post still applies as answer.

This is the last I post in this thread.

 

[cleverlymadeup]

I did get teh swiss from your profile. Apparently, I looked wrong. You are a canadian. What does that change, however? Are you any closer to a first hand knowledge of danish law? Are your friends?

actually copyright law works the same in most countries, if they signed the Berne Treaty, they follow certain rules. also most countries have very similar laws AND their law systems all work pretty similar, with minor differences between each

 

[CAPPINJACK]

I'm not fighting alongside piracy, I'm fighting against censorship; There is a huge fucking different you ignorant bastards.

I may not endorse the website, but I shouldn't be denied viewing it either. If they thought the webpage was breaking the law, they should shut it down, not censor it from their customers.

This is a spiral, it will only get worse, not better: That's why I'm concerned. This isn't the first case of cencorship in Denmark either. allofmp3.com was censored one or two years ago.

Nice to meet you, I'm Jim Doki and I'm about to hand you your ass.

Stealing is stealing. encouraging theft is illegal. Saying that you should be allowed to encourage stealing under the basis of free speech is ludicris. the otherer site you mentioned is ANOTHER questionably legal site. by your logic we should be allowed to view child pornography, because despite the fact we are endangering children, somebody has something to say

Hi my name is logical discussion.

Please read the above posts, as they seem to have gone over your head.

1, he called me a bastard
b, so what? you think that because an illegal website is censored, other legitimate websites are in danger? what logic is that based on?


EDIT

I'm not fighting alongside piracy, I'm fighting against censorship; There is a huge fucking different you ignorant bastards.

I may not endorse the website, but I shouldn't be denied viewing it either. If they thought the webpage was breaking the law, they should shut it down, not censor it from their customers.

This is a spiral, it will only get worse, not better: That's why I'm concerned. This isn't the first case of cencorship in Denmark either. allofmp3.com was censored one or two years ago.

Nice to meet you, I'm Jim Doki and I'm about to hand you your ass.

Stealing is stealing. encouraging theft is illegal. Saying that you should be allowed to encourage stealing under the basis of free speech is ludicris. the otherer site you mentioned is ANOTHER questionably legal site. by your logic we should be allowed to view child pornography, because despite the fact we are endangering children, somebody has something to say

How did you just hand me my ass? By acting like it?

Let me stress the fact that I am NOT fighting FOR piracy or ANYTHING ILLEGAL I am just worried that this will only get worse. Censorship is censorship. A torrent-site IS NOT ILLEGAL IN ITSELF, as it IS NOT HOSTING THE FILES, it is a MEDIUM.

This means the website has been DEEMED "inappropriate" by the government. Which I can't really see anything good coming out of, not in the near future, and certainly not in the distant future.

IT IS INNAPROPRIATE!!! try advertising stolen goods in your local newspaper and see what happens.

People do this all the time and no penalty is given. What's your point? God you're fucking stupid.

 

[axia777]

All I know is that I can still get to the Pirate Bay. Fuck the Danish police. They think they can stop this thing that torrenting has become? No one on Earth can stop it. NO ONE. They can try all they like but it will never work. The Prate bay will never die. They will just multiply!

 

[CAPPINJACK]

yeah, um, it's a PIRACY site. it's designed to steal things. I don't think you would get away with blatently stealing things under the grounds of free speech

Right, just so you're informed:
Piracy != Stealing.

Courts have distinguished between copyright infringement and theft, holding, for instance, in Dowling v. United States (1985) that bootleg phonorecords did not (for the purpose of the case) constitute stolen property, and writing:

interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: ... 'an infringer of the copyright.' ...

The infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone. But he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use. While one may colloquially link infringement with some general notion of wrongful appropriation, infringement plainly implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud.

?Dowling v. United States, 473 U.S. 207, pp. 217?218

Here is the url for reference. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement]

It is illegal, but it's not stealing. Semantics need to be addressed here because ignorant fuckwads like you use this kind of crap to champion your ridiculous beliefs that we should live in a police state in order to curtail crime.