Cheerleader must compensate school that told her to clap 'rapist'

[Alexnader]

I see what you are coming from, but think of it as this; by being murdered, their pain is over. They do not care, they are freed from the injustice and horror that another human being forced them into the vilest of acts against their will. By letting them live, they force them to deal with the consequences; very few rapes are reported compared to how many happened because the rapist can claim 'Oh they were drunk and consented.' or something similar. Plus the victims have the shame and self-loathing and the feeling of being soiled in every intimite way. Quite honestly? Rape is worse than murder to me.

As for that, it doesn't work like that; people react differently. Some weep for a while, before shrugging their shoulders and trying to move on, whilst others howl and cry and try to kill themselves. I've seen both, and more than the crime itself (forced sex) that is what disgusts me; the fact a human being could callously leave another human being in that horrific state.

I know they wouldn't exactly react like I mentioned in my example, the point is that however they react they have the choice to do what they feel necessary. If they've been murdered that choice is gone.

I'm not necessarily arguing that murder is more of an "appalling" act. The process of a rape sounds far more unpleasant than (most) murders and the motivations for a rape could easily be more inhuman than those for murder (crimes of passion or a superhero "murdering" the villain).

I'm saying that in terms of damage done to a victim I believe murder to be far worse. If a rapist lets their victim live they're not "forcing" the victim to live with what's happened to them because the victim still has the albeit terrible option to commit suicide if the pain is too great. They can end it volountarily as close as possible to their own terms. However if the victim is raped then murdered or even just murdered then the victim has even less choice in the matter. I would say that if rape is seen as the denial of the victim's choice then in some ways murder is the ultimate form of rape. At the moment life is extinguished and forever onwards the killer has complete and total dominion over their victim and nothing can ever be done to rectify the situation. Rapists can be punished and their victims rehabilitated, murderers can only be punished.

I think the point we're disagreeing on is whether physical and mental anguish are worse than oblivion and I'm not sure we're going to be able to reconcile our views here.

Edit*
To be OT here. I don't think she should've sued the school, she should've gone after the coach. I mean whoever he/she is sounds like a great person to have in a leadership position in control of a bunch of teenagers. "You won't cheer for your rapist? Well you're off the team honey, back in the 50s we just sat back and thought of mamma's home cookin' rather than kicking up such a big stink." I have no idea what the situation is but I hope she first complained about the coach to the school and tried to get herself back on the team via means that don't involve lawyers.

However people discussing this matter should ignore the whole "the rapist got off on a misdemeanor charge" issue, that's beside the point. "Justice" was served, although there'd have to be some pretty extreme mitigating circumstances for that to pass off as justice. The issue is what came after.

 

[Drexlor]

Schools have way too much power here in the US. They basically get to do whatever they want and get away with it.

 

[callmegreen]

WHAT........ THE ........... FUCK!!??!! she now owe's the school 45 grand because she wouldnt aplaud her RAPIST!?! WTF is up with texas and there wholehearted, Complete and utter devotion to high school level sports!?... Fukin retards

Yup, clearly all of Texas are to blame in this story.

Every single one of them.

Uh-huh.

okay I'm going to let you off for that because you have kurt cobain in your avatar . because Kurt's the fuking man

 

[Shoqiyqa]

Move where? That other high school in the same town? It's not that big. Just pick up the whole family and move to another town and start another job there, at huge cost, breaking off the kids' education mid-year et cetera et cetera to get away from the assailant? Why should they? Why shouldn't he have to move somewhere else, like maybe Alabama or Utah, or maybe Alaska?

I didn't say she should move. I said she should have quit the cheerleading team, if she didn't want to cheer for the guy. Yes, I know that's fucked up. I just don't feel like the court made the wrong decision, even if it was incredibly cold hearted. And when they say ongoing, they hadn't even proven that the guy was guilty yet when he was still playing. Granted, it was probably within their rights to not let him play basketball, but not to kick him out of school for a crime he had not been convicted of. Being accused of rape does not make you a rapist in the eyes of the law. Was he still allowed to attend high school after he was convicted? Or play basketball there?

Sorry. I wasn't really clear. That was a continuation from a previous post that was too buried to sensibly be edited.

---

What the heck are "statics" anyway?

---

Anyone who can't use there, they're and their or your, yaw, yore and you're properly should refrain from accusing others of illiteracy.

---

If she's so opposed to this guy, why did she join the cheerleading squad instead of switching schools or whatever?

It's possible she was already on it.

And why did she seek monetary "compensation" in court instead of seeking to be *reinstated* on the cheerleading team?

Last time I read this thread, we didn't know what she'd demanded. Are we now sure she was after money and not, for example, her place on the squad and his exclusion from the games?

Maybe she wanted compensation for the emotional trauma of having the dickhead school authority bod tell her to cheer for a piece of shit that raped her.

---

Regarding moving schools, the town's on the map and maps.google.com can show you just how large it is. Changing high school would mean changing town. That's expensive and probably means changing jobs for anyone in the family who has a job, and jobs are hard to get and have been ahrd to get since before 2008, so it's a lot to ask of either family ... assuming this creature has a family.

---

Regarding whether or not she was raped, have the other two cases been heard yet? If the other two are found guilty, that sort of implies he was one of three guys who raped her, doesn't it?

 

[Shoqiyqa]

"Specifically, they argue that subsequent to the grand jury?s decision not to indict Rountree and Bolton, Sheffield ?defamed? H.S. in a press conference and illegally revealed details of the indictment hearing."

Revealing details of the case that mean everyone in the country's heard abotu it and an impartial jury cannot be formed so the case can't ever be heard and he can never be convicted so she's denied justice forever ...

... would count as pretty damn shitty, in my opinion.

"Being pretty damn shitty" wasn't grounds for impeaching Bush, though, which sets a precedent for a lot of people to get away with a lot of shittiness!

 

[Hive Mind]

"Being pretty damn shitty" wasn't grounds for impeaching Bush, though, which sets a precedent for a lot of people to get away with a lot of shittiness!

That made me laugh out loud.

 

[Ritalynn]

First of all, all the knocking on Texas isn't needed.

And btw, how many highschool girls you seen flirting with coaches then later you see a coach get "fired" because the HS girl is a whore?

This is probably some cheerleading hoe bag, that got caught doing something and tried to say "i was raped".

We don't know the whole story.

 

[Fern Williams]

Sooooo she has to pay the school for not cheering for a guy who raped her. WTF kind of world do we live in?

 

[headshotcatcher]

Okay, fine. I can see how she would be dropped from the team: after all, she was refusing to participate. Albeit that kind of reasoning is kind of deluded. But the fines are entirely beyond me.

It sounds like a considerable amount of this story is not being told.

Or perhaps the situation in question really is just that insane.

It's not fines, it's the legal funds. The lawsuit costs money, and the lawyers on both sides cost money. When you lose something like this you have to pay (most of) the bills.


Also

SO Silsbee High School, in south-east Texas supports rapists if they play sports well and denigrates victims if they don't suck it up and take it? Good to F*cking know. Gotta say, it ought to be nice for opposing teams to be able to bring in signs that say "Beat the RAPISTS!" for the next ten years.

Oh Texas...you silly, backwards state. Why do we put up with your bizarre crap?

Jesus! she doesn't have to pay because she was raped, but because she lost a lawsuit about the cheerleading squad!
Jeeze people!
In the end it's her fault for suing the school..



Also:
"[Her School] had no duty to promote [the girl]'s message by allowing her to cheer or not cheer as she saw fit," the decision continued. "[the girl] was at the basketball game for the purpose of cheering, a position she undertook voluntarily."

 

[headshotcatcher]

Sooooo she has to pay the school for not cheering for a guy who raped her. WTF kind of world do we live in?

Her fault for suing the school over this stuff..

i think my head just exploded all over the wall..

what..how...

HE FUCKING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED HER?!?!? i would APPLAUD her for not cheering for him. perhaps getting suspended from the cheer team would have been enough, but she was kicked off, and fined and LOST THE CASE for 45,000 dollars?!?!? wtf? she is in fucking highschool, how the fuck is she supposed to get that kind of money? seriously?


how is it even possible for a school to sue over something like this?

SHE WASN'T FINED

She had to pay the LEGAL FEES

She was just kicked off the team (AFTER AN ULTIMATUM), she didn't participate so fair enough, but then she went on and sued the school.. The suing was her unsound idea and now she has to pay the toll.

If she had just went in long discussions with the school board instead of just rampantly suing, I would have given her a break, but jeeze..

 

[theNater]

If they just decided to have someone else cheer for the guy, then this could of been avoided.

Were they given the opportunity to find someone else to cheer for the guy? Or was the first time they knew she was unwilling halfway through the game? The article doesn't specify.

 

[theNater]

So if she was black and that ruined the white trash look of the cheer squad should she be kicked off for being black?

A white trash look is not a necessary requirement for a cheer squad to fulfill its function, so no.

If she was too short compared to the rest should she be kicked off for being too short?

Too short by itself? No.
If, as a side effect of being too short, she doesn't have the physical strength or necessary reach to perform the cheers? Then yes.

If the rest of the cheer squad was chanting the name of a terrorist should she be kicked off for refusing to do that?

If the terrorist is a member of the team, then yes. Otherwise, no.

Stop cutting off my posts here I mention the law. You know the thing you have to follow.
Public schools have to follow the law. She did not waive from her right to free speech. If you want to continue this debate, quote my whole post and answer when she waived her rights to free speech. Tell me when she signed a contract which would make this acceptable. Unless you can provide that then you are jsut beating a dead horse, because I consider the laws before I state anything. Looking at the laws, she should not have had to go to trial for this. The school should be spared it, the alleged rapist shouldn't have to be pulled into the media picture again, she should not have been kicked off.
If you do reply to this post without stating when she waived her right, I will ignore it and assume that you lost this one.

I haven't been answering about the law because I am not an expert on the law, and don't want to provide incorrect information. However, as you insist, I will provide my(possibly flawed) understanding of what the people who are law experts who have weighed in(including the judges who heard her case) have said.

Specifically: she waived her right to free speech when she agreed to serve as an official representative of the school(cheerleader). She maintained the ability to recover her right to free speech at any time by ceasing to be an official representative of the school(quitting the cheer squad).

Personally, the view that makes sense to me(but is not legally accurate) is that she waived her cheerleading privileges when she refused to perform her cheerleading duties. Note that those cheerleading privileges are all the school took from her as a result of her refusal to cheer.

 

[theNater]

I agree with this.

I don't think the cheerleader is to blame. She chose not to cheer on someone who freaking raped her. then the schoolboard took her off the cheerleading team because she didn't cheer for the person who raped her. now I know she had the option not to bring this to court however think about it this way: (horrible analogy incoming) imagine of you liked all of Valve's games except say Portal. Then you applauded all of then except portal. you were then sued by valve who won the case. (I get that she was supposed to cheer fo the team but I'm trying to get it to apply to escapists minds. reply to this with a better analogy plz.) I think the only people to blame at all are the Schoolboard and the Rapist.

Better analogy, as requested:

You are a volunteer beta-tester for Valve. When they send you Portal, you decide you don't like it and refuse to test it. They explain that their beta-testers have to test all their games, and if you don't test Portal you will no longer be a beta-tester. You still refuse, so they strike your name from their list of beta-testers. Then you sue them for taking you off their list of beta-testers. After you lose your lawsuit three times, the third judge declares that you have to pay the legal fees they incurred due to your persistent suing.

 

[Yopaz]

So if she was black and that ruined the white trash look of the cheer squad should she be kicked off for being black?

A white trash look is not a necessary requirement for a cheer squad to fulfill its function, so no.

If she was too short compared to the rest should she be kicked off for being too short?

Too short by itself? No.
If, as a side effect of being too short, she doesn't have the physical strength or necessary reach to perform the cheers? Then yes.

If the rest of the cheer squad was chanting the name of a terrorist should she be kicked off for refusing to do that?

If the terrorist is a member of the team, then yes. Otherwise, no.

Stop cutting off my posts here I mention the law. You know the thing you have to follow.
Public schools have to follow the law. She did not waive from her right to free speech. If you want to continue this debate, quote my whole post and answer when she waived her rights to free speech. Tell me when she signed a contract which would make this acceptable. Unless you can provide that then you are jsut beating a dead horse, because I consider the laws before I state anything. Looking at the laws, she should not have had to go to trial for this. The school should be spared it, the alleged rapist shouldn't have to be pulled into the media picture again, she should not have been kicked off.
If you do reply to this post without stating when she waived her right, I will ignore it and assume that you lost this one.

I haven't been answering about the law because I am not an expert on the law, and don't want to provide incorrect information. However, as you insist, I will provide my(possibly flawed) understanding of what the people who are law experts who have weighed in(including the judges who heard her case) have said.

Specifically: she waived her right to free speech when she agreed to serve as an official representative of the school(cheerleader). She maintained the ability to recover her right to free speech at any time by ceasing to be an official representative of the school(quitting the cheer squad).

Personally, the view that makes sense to me(but is not legally accurate) is that she waived her cheerleading privileges when she refused to perform her cheerleading duties. Note that those cheerleading privileges are all the school took from her as a result of her refusal to cheer.

Again you cut off chunks of my post. The whole point of those questions went missing when you cut them up, but OK, I'll deal with it. My point with those were that if they choose to get rid of one of the most important rights in the whole constitution, what will be their next step? Should they be allowed to ignore rights?
You have stated that you do not know the law. I have stated that she has never signed a contract on giving up her right to freedom of speech, thus punishing her for using her right to free speech is illegal. Also, state run school state rules.
I also mentioned priority when it comes to law. School rules do not go over the constitution. The school rules are not the law.

 

[theNater]

Again you cut off chunks of my post. The whole point of those questions went missing when you cut them up, but OK, I'll deal with it. My point with those were that if they choose to get rid of one of the most important rights in the whole constitution, what will be their next step? Should they be allowed to ignore rights?
You have stated that you do not know the law. I have stated that she has never signed a contract on giving up her right to freedom of speech, thus punishing her for using her right to free speech is illegal. Also, state run school state rules.
I also mentioned priority when it comes to law. School rules do not go over the constitution. The school rules are not the law.

Being a cheerleader is not a right. It is a privilege that comes with certain responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to speak in certain ways at certain times. It is reasonable to assume that a reasonable person will understand this.

When she joined the cheer squad, she tacitly agreed to this arrangement. A written contract is not necessary to indicate her agreement; the act of joining the cheer squad indicates it clearly enough. As such, when she failed to live up to her responsibilities, she lost her privilege.

Being white is not a reasonable responsibility for a cheerleader. Being tall is not a reasonable responsibility for a cheerleader(though having appropriate reach and strength are). Eating pork is not a reasonable responsibility for a cheerleader(though it may be a reasonable responsibility for a member of a hot dog eating team).

 

[Yopaz]

Again you cut off chunks of my post. The whole point of those questions went missing when you cut them up, but OK, I'll deal with it. My point with those were that if they choose to get rid of one of the most important rights in the whole constitution, what will be their next step? Should they be allowed to ignore rights?
You have stated that you do not know the law. I have stated that she has never signed a contract on giving up her right to freedom of speech, thus punishing her for using her right to free speech is illegal. Also, state run school state rules.
I also mentioned priority when it comes to law. School rules do not go over the constitution. The school rules are not the law.

Being a cheerleader is not a right. It is a privilege that comes with certain responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to speak in certain ways at certain times. It is reasonable to assume that a reasonable person will understand this.

When she joined the cheer squad, she tacitly agreed to this arrangement. A written contract is not necessary to indicate her agreement; the act of joining the cheer squad indicates it clearly enough. As such, when she failed to live up to her responsibilities, she lost her privilege.

Being white is not a reasonable responsibility for a cheerleader. Being tall is not a reasonable responsibility for a cheerleader(though having appropriate reach and strength are). Eating pork is not a reasonable responsibility for a cheerleader(though it may be a reasonable responsibility for a member of a hot dog eating team).

It's not a right to be a cheerleader, but free speech is. If she had agreed to give up on free speech, this would be the right outcome of the case. If you want to waive from your rights you need to sign a contract where it states that you agree to give up on it where every minor detail of it is worded in the contract. If you are punished for using your rights when you haven't waived them that is illegal. Do you think she was told that she wasn't allowed to use her right to free speech when she joined? Do you think she got a legally binding contract? If you say no and still think she deserved to be kicked off, then you have proven to me that you really don't know the law. Taking away rights without informing about it isn't right. If you are a cop and search someone's car without a warrant or probable cause and find drugs that can't be used as evidence because the search was illegal. That means that rights actually is worth more than state law and federal law. If you can get away with dealing drugs because of your rights, do you really think someone who was not informed that she didn't have freedom of speech should be punished?

Also you are constantly getting me wrong. Being white isn't a responsibility for a cheer squad, kicking someone off it for being black is illegal. It's everyone's right to be treated as equal, but if rights are disregarded that easily how long do you think it takes before other rights are disregarded? America is far from the country of Freedom. It's the modern Rome, and closing in on being Nazi Germany. Is this what you want to reach? Honestly, I don't care about the girl. What I care about is the blatant disregard for human rights, and isn't that something to worry about?

 

[Aur0ra145]

texas? oh yeah, they better shoot the rapist instead of paying him. it's absolute bullshit that the court isn't being leniant what so ever on the cheerleader.

They never did pay him. Also, he was only convicted of misdemeanor assault. Not rape, Not Sexual Assault.

ITT: people who think it's funny to hate on Texas.

I will not apologize for my state. While I think that this is a terrible situation, I think the school had every right to throw her off the cheerleading squad for insubordination.

Don't take it personally, overly impulsive people who refuse to see a situation objectivley tend to cast blame on the first thing that pops into their heads. Why yes, it is rather bigoted, but lets not let little details like that get in the way.

I've never even been to Texas, so this isn't me defending my own.

For the 50th time:
She isn't being made to pay compensation for refusing to cheer, she's being made to pay compensation because she sued the school in a frivolous lawsuit that did nothing but waste the schools time and money. Now they want her to pay their legal bills. They are 100% in the right in seeking compensation. Taking to a higher court wouldn't change a goddamn thing. It was stupid lawsuit that never stood a chance.

Thank the lord there are a few sane people on these forums. I was starting to lose hope for peoples ability to think critically. Hell I even made a post earlier and expected a lot of people to try and retort it and I haven't been quoted once. *sigh*

Spoiler: shameless

Could someone who knows the law explain why the guy who assaulted her only got probation and community service? Because that seems like a really light sentence. Did Johnny Cochran rise from the grave to take the case?

This is because, generally speaking, all first time offenders (misdemeanors, State Jail, 3rd and 2nd Class felonies) in sex related crimes receive community supervision (probation.) Albeit, they do have to submit to things like fingerprinting, giving DNA, child safety zones, registering as a sex offender, penile plethysmographs and fines, plus a huge amount of other intermediate sanctions. Additionally, in sex related crimes in the state of Texas the court can decided to engage in aftercare. Meaning, there is a chance if you are not rehabilitated to continue community supervision until the agent of the court (probation officer) sees you as fit to completely reenter society without any supervision.

The reason for this sort of action can result from plea bargaining, sentence bargaining and the like. Though the reason a vast majority of these people are entered into community supervision is because the state of Texas has an overpopulation of the penal system. That's right, Texas locks-up so many people they've run out of room for some different types of offenders.

Without knowing exactly what he was convicted it is difficult to tell you exactly why he got community supervision. Though, it should be noted that Texas follows a rather 'determinate' sentencing structure so courts are not permitted to dole out any punishment they seem fit, it is rather written into the penal code, "if you do X you will get Y."

I just looked at the penal code. Both articles said he got assault so that falls under

Spoiler: Texas State Penal Code Sec. 22.01

Sec. 22.01. ASSAULT. (a) A person commits an offense if the person:

(1) intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly causes bodily injury to another, including the person's spouse;

(2) intentionally or knowingly threatens another with imminent bodily injury, including the person's spouse; or

(3) intentionally or knowingly causes physical contact with another when the person knows or should reasonably believe that the other will regard the contact as offensive or provocative.

[cut]

(c) An offense under Subsection (a)(2) or (3) is a Class C misdemeanor

On topic:

This is a bad day for the legal system in Texas. I being a resident of Texas see this as being a horrible thing for the girl.

With that said, I get how the court came to its decision. I even understand about the fine she received.

Basically. The chick engaged in a VOLUNTARY school activity. She does not have to participate in these events.

A condition of being in this VOLUNTARY organization is to cheer at school events. She chose not to cheer.

This gave the coach grounds for her removal from the cheer team.

End of story.

But it gets more interesting, she chose not to cheer because one of the players was convicted of assault against her. I see this as being very noble of her. Hell, I would do the same thing she did, I would never cheer for someone who assaulted me. But the subject matter of why she was not cheering is of no concern in the legal system. None what so ever, because she voluntarily chose to be a cheer leader and accepted the terms and conditions of being in the cheer squad. When she accepted these terms she voluntarily suspended her right to free speech while participating in cheer events.

With the violation of her contract with the cheer squad she was removed.

So she sues the school district.

The article said that they went through 2 different courts which ruled against her claim to freedom of expression. Okay.

So now, if I read the article correctly it says that she went to a federal appeals court (third try) and lost, furthermore she was instructed to pay a fine of $45,000 dollars to the school district most likely for court fees because she challenged the decision 3 times.

My thoughts:

This really really sucks. It's a bad situation any way you put it. Though I do believe that the emphasis of these articles focuses to much on the "sexism," "High School Sports OMMHGEEE!" "free speech" stuff. In all honestly this case was about violation of a contract with a voluntary organization. I think the court did the right thing, they stuck to the law. Yeah, it's not pretty, and it's really bad for the girl, but she had no grounds for engaging in more than 1 court case. Even then, it's hard to see why the court even heard the case in the first place. Voluntary means voluntary, you don't have to be there if you don't agree with it.

Had she been REQUIRED to be on the team then we wouldn't get this same end result.

This is literally injustice. Those guys are pigs to even consider charging her $45,000 over a simple thing of refusing to cheer for someone who molested her - what the crap is wrong with humanity? Seriously.. this is unfair to a whole new level.

The court fined her $45,000 for taking the law suite to three different courts and losing each time. The fine was for court fees incurred by the school district for her excessive amount of appeals.

Look at it this way, $15,000 per court case. That seems reasonable. I'm even glad they fined her, how would you like it if someone took you to court three times, lost all three times, and you were not compensated for your financial expenditures to represent yourself with an attorney.

So the guy who sexually assaults a woman not only gets away with it,

He was convicted of assault, not sexual assault and not rape.

but then since she refuses to clap/cheer for him is charged?? WHY??

She is not fined for failing to clap for him. She is fined for taking the case to court 3 times and losing each time. $15,000 compensation per trial for the school district.

This sickens me, the school should be sued and the man should be brought to jail. I really can't stand our justice system sometimes, 'Justice is blind' my butt..

The school was sued. The school won.

By the man, I believe you are referring to the athlete. He was convicted of assault and is/was serving his time for his penalty, a Class C Misdemeanor.

In this instance, justice was most certainly blind. It doesn't matter why she didn't cheer. It's the mere fact that she chose not to cheer, and if that is within her right or not, is what was in question.

The court ruling makes perfect sense. She wasn't forced to be on the cheer squad. She violated the terms of her privilege to be on the team. So, they excluded her from the team.

Did this get out of hand? Yes, I would say so. But she should never have gotten so "sue happy" with the school.

 

[Arsen]

This is insensitive, cruel, and psychologically damaging to the girl. Whomever this principal is needs to understand the problems and difficulties a sexually abused person goes through after their assault. What a truly dickheaded, heartless bastard.

Sports culture in America is given such leniency in these cases that it eventually becomes an unjustified amount of bullshit .