China riots, island tensions and the UN -updated

[The Rascal King]

The Chinese should know better than to have a dick-measuring contest with the rest of the world.

 

[Idocreating]

I find it hard to believe this is happening in the 21st century. Why the hell would the whole of China lose its shit over a couple of little islands which they haven't owned for ages? I thought the human race was past the whole land-grabbing obsession. Empires are built through businesses now, not occupation of land. These kind of acts just look barbaric nowadays. Or perhaps this is just about the oil?

Then again I guess it wasn't so long ago that the whole Falklands War thing went down. Maybe we're not past this kind of things after all.

Oil and Natural Gas within the area of the islands. It's all about money.

 

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

The government should have banned Japanese islands, and those islands are rich in gas, and to have them sold off to some rich Japanese guy. Its pretty sad. This is place is also a good place to fish which a lot of people in China do.

 

[DarkRyter]

Being an American, and thus a complete outsider to this conflict beyond the indirect geopolitical and economic consequences, I feel the best opinion to hold on the matter is that of a sniveling imperialist.

Look at those oriental savages. Squabbling over scraps of dirt.

 

[UberNoodle]

Japan refuses to acknowledge what is had done during WWII. They even refuse to educate their younger generations as to what they did to China during the invasion. Japan also has shrines for the fallen soldiers and "heroes" who massacred and raped China and they are often commemorated, worshipped, etc.

Imagine if Germany had shrines to the "heroes" who helped exterminate the millions of Jews in the extermination camps and to the "heroes" who blitzed London... maybe now you have a small insight as to how delicate things are over here.

You live in China. I live in Japan. Let's not be rivals though. I just would like to mention some vital points.

Germany doesn't have a 'shrine' to the people who exterminated millions of Jews, but I am sure that many war criminals have graves which can be visited. Imagine if criminals were not allowed to be buried as per their beliefs and human decency. Germany does however have secular tributes to their war dead. Technically, war criminals also qualify for such tributes, thus a similar argument applies, does it not? Should such tributes and memorials contain fine print disqualifying all the unjust war dead? It might require a very intricate regex string for that one.

In Japanese Shinto shrines like Yasukuni, there are many thousands of 'interred souls' and a small percentage of them are war criminals. The majority are young men who were conscripted and fought and died in several wars. There are other souls ensrhined as well. The shrine is obviously a non-secular memorial for the war dead, but there are unfortunately few secular alternatives. The Prime Ministers who have visited the shrine are doing so as one would visit a secular tribute or memorial. The religious nature of the shrine however, makes this issue nebulous. I don't deny it.

Yet should Japanese Shinto refuse to give the dead their proper rites? As for people 'worshipping' and 'commemorating' war criminals there, it's equivocation for the most part, as all dead souls are worshipped and commemorated. It is part of the tradition of filial piety which is strong throughout Asian cultures. I'm surprised that you didn't say the usual that these criminals had been made into 'gods'. The correct term is 'kami' and while they are similar to gods, it is possible for all dead to become kami, and many kami which are native to Japan and not part of the 'origin myths' of Japan were once living people.

As kami are as capable of blessing as they are destruction, they must be placated, especially if they may have darker tendencies. Thus, all souls are commemorated and placated through visitation and offerings.

 

[acosn]

This concept of "face" as well as thousands upon thousands of years of culture and history is easily scoffed at by people of the West; for it is considered beneath them. China refuses to be seen as weak, in the past it has been exploited by the West and Japan many times...

China, Korea and Japan have hated each other for centuries. WW2 and even modern history isn't a very major focal point in this when you consider that the last time Chinese culture in Japan was really respected was the Ashikaga Shogunate. And I'm probably wrong about that one too.

Japan refuses to acknowledge what is had done during WWII. They even refuse to educate their younger generations as to what they did to China during the invasion. Japan also has shrines for the fallen soldiers and "heroes" who massacred and raped China and they are often commemorated, worshipped, etc.

I wouldn't make any bones about it; culturally Japan is about as benign in a military sense as you can get short of being Switzerland. I mean, don't get me wrong, I think they certainly should. Culturally speaking Japan has some real issues with the whole pride thing and they're producing back-to-back generations of kids who are just aimless and are disconnected from where they came from.

Religion isn't really the place of politics either.

It's not so much that Japan refuses to acknowledge what happened as they simply don't want to talk about it. There's a difference between denying and simply not talking about it, even if both kind of avoid the issue.



The riots and everything else aren't anything new. China wants the islands to keep everyone else out. Japan wants them for the resources and because it's legitimately theirs. Taiwan wants it because they don't want China boxing them in geographically, and they'd rather not have Japan be there either even if they more or less get along. The riots in China lets their government send a message without actually having to do anything because it's easy to stoke generational hatred. There's virtually no risk of anything happening because China wouldn't dare jeopardize it's standing with the US, who is legally obligated to defend Japan. Treaty of San Francisco and what not. Not only would the war be ugly for China, but they'd completely cripple their economy, completely negate any capital gains they'd make on all that money the US owes them, and just to snub their nose at Japan over a fucking island chain.

 

[nightwolf667]

Tell that to the Tibetans who they invaded in 1956, the Indians who they attacked in 1962, the Russians who they attacked in 1969 and the Vietnamese who they attacked in 1979.

to the Chinese Tibet is part of China. it only existed as an independent state for 30 years of its entire history. "old maps" as i said before.

the rest were cold war border conflicts that resulted in next to no territorial change and directly led to the Sino-Soviet split and China becoming a US ally in the cold war. if you want to frame those as Chinese "imperialist" aggression you simply are making a mockery of far more complicated history involved.

and by my "logic" nothing. my or your supposed "logic" and your desire for the world to adhere to it while throwing around false equivalences doesn't shape the world. but the Chinese Confuciust view of China does shape their world and maybe just maybe you should find out what the hell that is before you go trying to label them the next overly simplistic "big bad" on the world stage simply because for your own world view to work you've got to have one.

this ? this a an argument about a rock in the sea akin to multitudes of others some of which almost certainly involve your own country ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes ) and as such it doesn't particularly mark China down as anything.

Just how long did Poland exist as independent country before the Germans invaded? Tibet has been part of China for periods of history, first coming into Chinese control under the Mongols and has come and gone since with the strength of the ruling dynasties. Much like Poland has appeared and disappeared in the same time period. China since WW2 has consistently used armed force in backing its view of the borders, in the process killing 10000s of poeple and attempting to destroy any non Chinese culture within its selfdefined borders. 90% of countries in the world can make convincing historical claims to control of parts or even entire other countries, why is it acceptable for China to used armed force on its claims but not Mexico to invade the US to reclaim the southern half of the US?

The example of Mexico vs. U.S. is probably a poor example considering we did win the territories after a war and forcing Mexico to sign a document legitimizing the U.S.'s ownership of that land.

There's nothing wrong with Mexico invading the U.S. to reclaim the same territories...if Mexico is willing to become the 51st state of the United States after it surrenders.

The irony of course here, on the subject of Mexico, is that Mexican Military Forces do invade the United States on a regular basis. They have shot and killed members of the Border Patrol while transporting drug shipments for the Cartels. If the U.S.A wanted to go to war with Mexico, we have a legitimate claim to, they have already participated in acts of war against us on our own soil. It's terrifying to realize that the corruption there runs so deep. But we aren't at war with Mexico. There aren't even any National Guard forces stationed on the border. Why? Because we don't want Mexico. We don't want to engage in acts of hostilities against Mexico, even when they are engaging on a regular basis in acts that are backed by members of the corrupted parts of their own government. Mexico is a mess and if we started a military campaign against Mexico to go after the drug cartels, it wouldn't end until we were half way through South America. The U.S. government knows that. They won't do it.

On the subject of whether or not it's okay? You're trying to apply morality to a question that has no basis there. Only two things matter: can they do it? Yes. Could they win? No. There's nothing to be gained from an invasion. Mexico isn't together enough as a country to even make an attempt at reclaiming it's territory, it's government is in pieces and weighed down by corruption that has no interest in seeing things change. A bloody military conflict will end with most of their own people, both soldier and civilian, dead and those in power, well, no longer in power. It's a losing proposition.

We haven't even included the fact that Mexico would be up against the most well-funded and one of the best trained, largest military forces in the world. Say what you will about the United States and it's politics, but it's military is a very scary beast. Our military readiness assumes that we will be fighting two full-scale wars on any given front, with our force projection we can fight two full scale wars from anywhere in the world. If Mexico did invade, the US Military could, in fact, engage in a full scale war against them while keeping operations going in the Middle East and a strong presence on the Korean DMZ. Think about that for a second, then remember that's without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons.

On the China front? I don't know what's going to happen. I know the US is required to support Japan militarily due to treaties from WW2, Japan doesn't have much in the way of their own and may not actually be able to engage in conflicts if they are presented. China, however, does have a military, they also have crappy force projection. If they want to go to war over it, they can. It's more a question of will they.

 

[Samus Aran but a man]

Yikes... will there ever be friendship between Japan and China?

 

[llubtoille]

Strange, I wonder why an average Chinese dude would riot in their own country over the ownership of some islands.
I mean, say the Chinese did gain ownership of the land (and resources within)
The average citizen's not going to see much/any of the gain from it XD

 

[Treblaine]

What is it with Asian countries and hating each other so much? They're getting to be almost as bad as differing religious sects that will murder each other at the drop of a hat.

WWII and the Cold War. WWII saw horrific scale of conflict and there has been little reconciliation since then. It was only made worse by the politics of the Cold War that saw it convenient to institutionalise nationalistic antagonism.

Japan and China were enemies in WWII, and again China and Japan were enemies in the Cold War. Now economically they see each other more as competitors and worse... financial liabilities. It's not any sort of excuse, it's a motive for such extraordinary behaviour.

China has gone through extreme hardship in living memory, the "great leap forward" and later the "cultural revolution" were massive national disasters of huge scale violence and suffering.

It's not Asians in general, it's politics of the day.

England and France used to be like this to each other with centuries and centuries of continuous violence and antagonism. But eventually they were able to work out serious difference and now we just make rude jokes about each other at the worst. China has not had the centuries of comparative internal peace and stability that the UK or even the USA has. As harsh as USA's civil rights struggle was, it wasn't as violent or costly a China's civil strife has been.

 

[Treblaine]

For reference, these are the disputed islands:

Yes, not only are there no people, there are barely any animals on the island. You could walk across them in a few minutes and possibly spot a few birds. They have no significant ports nor even suitability to build an air-strip.

It would be interesting to see how much the Chinese media has actually reported on these details that don't make the islands such a big deal.

The islands do have oil. But Japan has very insecure energy resources, China has access to much more ample fuel sources, arguably the islands have only any significant value to Japan as they have been part of Japan for the past 117 years.

 

[tehroc]

If Japan and China go to war at least we'll get to see Japan's giant robots and cyborg samurai. Yes, their arrow tips have miniature nuclear warheads inside, their blades can cut through the hardest substance know to man and their robotic horses have pez dispensers and breath fire.

They only face off against Shaolin Monks and Hong Kong Triads. It would make for a good movie.

 

[Puzzlenaut]

And ultimately, all these bloody riots do is hurt China itself.

what you have to remember is that the Chinese state controls the media pretty strongly, so you have to assume that the state has whipped up these riots on purpose.
That might seem counter-intuitive at first, but in fact its the oldest trick in the book (or at least in the information age): unite unsatisfied people under one banner by giving them an external enemy to take out their rage on.

Like the Falklands war for Thatcher's Britain or the systematic demonization of the French by the Bush administration after the start of the Iraq war.

 

[tehroc]

I would hate this all to turn into WWIII, not because of the death, violence, etc but because it will just sound so goddamn stupid. The Middle East erupted over a movie, Asia fought over some useless rocks and water, and America was all like "shit" and had to go fight in both places, dragging the rest of the world in because of diplomacy and such.

WW3 will most like occur over the invasion of Iran, or at least Israeli missile strikes on key uranium-enriching plants in Iran.

 

[Squilookle]

For reference, these are the disputed islands:

Actually there are eight islands in the group overall- three of which have been purchased by the Japanese government.

WW3 will most like occur over the invasion of Iran, or at least Israeli missile strikes on key uranium-enriching plants in Iran.

What, so everyone in the world has been ordered to just wait for Iran and Israel to have a match up before getting the go-ahead on their own troubles?

 

[tehroc]

What, so everyone in the world has been ordered to just wait for Iran and Israel to have a match up before getting the go-ahead on their own troubles?

The US and most of Europe are Israel's ally, while both China and Russia are allied with Iran. If we fuck with Iran we're fucking with China and Russia's primary oil exporter.

Take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5QF4

 

[Knight1172]

What, so everyone in the world has been ordered to just wait for Iran and Israel to have a match up before getting the go-ahead on their own troubles?

The US and most of Europe are Israel's ally, while both China and Russia are allied with Iran. If we fuck with Iran we're fucking with China and Russia's primary oil exporter.

Take a look at this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7L8bw5QF4

World War 3 won't happen until an effective anti-Nuclear defence system is developed. End of story. No 'ifs' or 'buts'. We went through the Cold War with far greater tension than this; and we came close to World War 3, but we did not suffer it. These days? You could wipe out Europe with five missiles. In minutes. No one's going to risk that power.

The video you linked is iffy on it's sources; the one talking about US sanctions killing 500,000 children is especially suspicious considering he cites no source, and everything else is either a Bloomberg article or a bit of video out of context. Furthermore, it seems to completely dismiss the very concept that the overall defence and economic policy of the US might flunctuate between administrations. The idea that it has remained consistent from Nixon to Obama is rather shocking. From about 9:30, it goes a tad crazy-demagogue-the-apocalypse-is-coming-rise-UP!. I mean, remain politically vigilant, ask questions about everything, but come on...

China will use this situation, maybe, to get a better deal. Maybe. Say to the Japanese they have no choice in the matter. It'll die down. The world will live on [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc]...

 

[DugMachine]

That video was supposed to be a riot?


No but seriously, those pictures, at least some of them, look pretty scary. I hope this doesn't get worse and go into some sort of military conflict.

 

[Adultratedhydra]

I love how conspiracy nuts always try to spin regional conflicts as the spark for war.

Heres the facts:
- China wont go to war because its Economy would Tank.

- America will welsh on the NATO Treaty in a heartbeat because unless they go full blown War economy mode, thier already wounded economy will tank.

- Russia wouldnt get involved because if Putin even -thinks- the word "War" Russia will go through another Revolution.

It all comes down to money at the end of the day, China wont have any, America wont have any, Russia wont have any and noone will honor any defensive pacts because....Well they have no money. People need to stop being so Doomsday about everything and actually look shit up.

Also China isnt stupid. They know it would be a mainly Naval Battle and the Japanese Navy would trounce them in a Heartbeat.

End of the day we arent in the days of Blind Jingoism leading to war anymore and situations will have to deteriorate beyong name calling and little jabs at foreign policy before every pitches an almighty shitfit at one another.