China riots, island tensions and the UN -updated

[Jegsimmons]

riots in every country in the middle east plus Australia, china has riots, china is invading Japanese and Phillipino waters and islands (a terrible idea), Europe is probably going to collapse economically.....and worst of all...Obama is running for a second term.

AAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!!!!

 

[synobal]

So strange... I live in Shanghai, but I haven't seen anything crazy like this happen.. well, early days yet.

Let me summarise this, as to how I understand the history over here:
1) 14th century, China claims islands
2) 1890 Japan takes over islands (in a war)
3) WWII America takes over islands
4) 1970 America gives islands back to Japan, China doesn't object or say anything

A few days ago we had an air-raid drill across China, you know, those sirens you hear in Silent Hill (also from WWII) as the world changes before you... I didn't know it was a drill and promptly began sh*tting myself.

Aside from the resources that can be gained from owning these islands (gas deposits and oil, I believe), the biggest motivation for this conflict is "face"... a concept many in the West have difficulty understanding.

This concept of "face" as well as thousands upon thousands of years of culture and history is easily scoffed at by people of the West; for it is considered beneath them. China refuses to be seen as weak, in the past it has been exploited by the West and Japan many times...

Japan refuses to acknowledge what is had done during WWII. They even refuse to educate their younger generations as to what they did to China during the invasion. Japan also has shrines for the fallen soldiers and "heroes" who massacred and raped China and they are often commemorated, worshipped, etc.

Imagine if Germany had shrines to the "heroes" who helped exterminate the millions of Jews in the extermination camps and to the "heroes" who blitzed London... maybe now you have a small insight as to how delicate things are over here.

It is difficult to understand things foreign and easy to draw comparisons to the limited experiences we have. Many people in the UK think it is bat-sh*t crazy, that people in America can walk the streets with guns, therefore they assume people are getting shot; left-right and center... it is easy for the people of UK to say "Hey, why don't you Americans just ban guns? We do, in the UK... simple" However, there are those in the UK who can look past these simplified and arguably ignorant remarks and reach understandings as to why America does what it does.

Educate yourselves. Look into the history of these islands. Look at both sides of the stories. Travel to China and Japan. Talk to the people.

[edit: typo]

This is the most insightful comment I've seen in this thread.

 

[Imthatguy]

Sounds like the plot of Just Cause 2. Does that mean the CIA gonna send in their pyshics defying chaos wizards?

 

[Ryotknife]

China is not the next big bad. They are a very old and well-established big bad.

*Face palm* Is there really such a thing as "good country" and "bad country".

What about the UK? We spread our Empire across the entire world, killing hundreds of thousands, stealing land and priceless relics, raping and pillaging and then establishing our way of life and governmental systems onto lands and populations that already had their own.

The UK is also very old and well-established at being a "big bad"

What about USA? They are a country founded on wiping out an indigenous race. A country founded by the ruling elite rebelling tp protect their assets from England's taxes. A country founded on civil war. A country that war-mongers to this day.

The US of A is a very new country and is also well-established at being a "big bad"

I am not forcing an opinion, in all honesty I am particularly bias towards China, because I love it here and I would like to represent a side to China that is not portrayed on Fox news. I just like to point out how things are not just shades of black and white (good and bad).

A final thought. Is China the villian in this event, in regards to the islands? China made offer to share the islands with Japan, to help end the dispute. Japan refused. I think China's approach here, is not a good example of what can be considered a "big bad"

/facepalm

I do not see the japanese calling for the extermination of China. And hey, America lost many lives to the Japanese AND the Germans, we do not hold any hostility towards either country (and we fought Germany twice). Hell, we do not hold any animosity towards the UK whom we fought for our independence.

Also, the native americans were mostly wiped out via diseases before anyone really understood diseases, try again. Now the chiefs are rich as hell due to them using their reservations for gambling and lowering the price of normally taxed goods and are making a killing.

I am sorry, but these protests are significantly WORSE than the protests going on in the middle east, and i say this as a citizen of the country being mostly targeted by those islamic protests.

It takes quite a bit of effort to make a group look worse than islamic extremists, but by George China has accomplished it in these protests. And yes, "face" is stupid. Hell Europeans/Americans were just as guilty of it a few centuries ago, but we have changed. Look at the Revolutionary war, soldiers lining up in rows stoicly standing still so the other side can shoot them. We look back on that style of warfare now and think "what the hell were they thinking?"

This level of hate from an event so long ago is stupid, period. I could understand a bit of sabre rattling, or a resurgence of national pride, but these protests cross WAY over the line.

US doesnt even hate muslims as much as the chinese are hating the japanese, and we were attacked (and are regularly attacked) recently and the extremists are still a threat to us, Japan is no longer a threat to China in any way whatsoever.

 

[sb666]

Actually ignore this post I don't want to start a political debate.

 

[JeffBergGold]

Also, the native americans were mostly wiped out via diseases before anyone really understood diseases, try again. Now the chiefs are rich as hell due to them using their reservations for gambling and lowering the price of normally taxed goods and are making a killing.

It is incredibly disturbing and frightening that you can diminish the genocide of an entire indigenous people with monetary compensation. What is wrong with you dude? I mean seriously.

 

[Ryotknife]

Also, the native americans were mostly wiped out via diseases before anyone really understood diseases, try again. Now the chiefs are rich as hell due to them using their reservations for gambling and lowering the price of normally taxed goods and are making a killing.

It is incredibly disturbing and frightening that you can diminish the genocide of an entire indigenous people with monetary compensation. What is wrong with you dude? I mean seriously.

Most of their deaths were of no moral fault of the colonists. Nobody knew about immune systems. You cant blame them for something that nobody knew nothing about.

Now if you want to talk about the armed conflicts between colonists and native americans, by all means go ahead, plenty of blame to go around there. Americans have quite a few skeletons in that closet (as do the natives in question). But most of the Native american deaths were via disease unintentially. Colonists didnt know they were bringing over a Super Black Death.

Or should we blame China for the Genocide that the original black death caused in Europe?

 

[JeffBergGold]

Most of their deaths were of no moral fault of the colonists.

I'm curious as to how you drew that conclusion

Nobody knew about immune systems.

What does that have to do with systematically spreading disease?

You cant blame them for something that nobody knew nothing about.

Even though I disagree with this particular point because it was actually a conscious effort. Do you believe that ignorance equals innocence?


This is off topic so I'm not going to engage in it any further. You already have your historical revision of what occurred firmly entrenched in your mind no point in trying to correct it. Just know that you are wrong.

 

[Ryotknife]

Most of their deaths were of no moral fault of the colonists.

I'm curious as to how you drew that conclusion

Nobody knew about immune systems.

What does that have to do with systematically spreading disease?

You cant blame them for something that nobody knew nothing about.

Even though I disagree with this particular point because it was actually a conscious effort. Do you believe that ignorance equals innocence?


This is off topic so I'm not going to engage in it any further. You already have your historical revision of what occurred firmly entrenched in your mind no point in trying to correct it. Just know that you are wrong.

So china is also guilty of genocide against the Europeans then too? I am sorry, but you are wrong. What happened was tragic, yes. But it was not by an act of evil. There were a ton of acts of evil elsewhere between those two groups, but the spreading of disease was unintentional for the most part.

You can not blame someone for ignorance IF NOBODY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD KNEW ABOUT IT OR ANYTHING RELATED TO IT. ignorance implies that it is possible to become enlightened in that subject, in this scenario it was not possible.

If the next time you started your car it would create a black hole which would destroy mankind because of some aspect of the physical universe we did not understand, is that your fault or is it mankinds fault for not understanding it sooner?

 

[Yureina]

Well so far he hasn't responded, which I assume means I win. ^_^

I disagree with the idea that China will be the 21st Century's Nazi Germany. More like the 21st Century Victoria Britain. I don't think China has enough control over its own people (who have a deep sense of honor and moral guidance, something the Nazi's did NOT have) to create a state quite like Nazi Germany. Yes China has been spotty on human rights, but they've ALWAYS been like that. Rather than viewing it as an evil totalitarian government that is out to crush all opposition, I more see it as a different culture where a strong central state is preferred.

Now, I think we both know there is a VERY good argument against what I've just said, and I completely agree that on the surface (given just that one paragraph) my logic is faulty. But suffice it to say that, if I were to expand on these themes, I'd explain how China will continue to evolve, and while it may always be authoritarian in many aspects, it will morph into a state of justice rather than abuse. Elements of this can already be seen in many of the reforms of the last twenty years, but China has a long way to go. If history is any guidance, China's current regime will likely fall in the next 100 years, giving way to a more efficiently run government. Again, this government may be authoritarian, but it will probably be less corrupt (which, in my opinion, is the real problem plaguing China today).

It's the rabid nationalism and racism that disturbs me, and leads me to that conclusion that I stated in my last post. Extreme nationalism has been on the rise in China for at least 20 years now, and you yourself brought up their age-old cultural self-perception (aka, we are the middle kingdom, the center of the universe, the best, all others are inferior to us, etc). And as we well know, authoritarian states with the kind of serious internal problems that China has have little reason to curb feelings of hatred against a foreign enemy, since it distracts the people from going after the government. Also, since China believes itself to be a victim not only of the Japanese but of the West because of that "century of humiliation" (which is blown out of proportion), I doubt there will be much dissent about China seeking to avenge itself against the world for the wrongs, real and imagined, committed against it in the past 100-150 years.

Feelings of racial superiority, visceral hatreds towards specific foreign peoples, and a desire to get payback for perceived mistreatment at the hands of others. The only real thing that seems to be missing is a fiery nationalist leader who seeks to channel these emotions into actions - at the expense of everyone else in the world.

 

[Xdeser2]

*sigh*

We can only hope for a peaceful outcome to this. hopefully restraint will prevail over ignorance.

 

[Ryotknife]

*sigh*

We can only hope for a peaceful outcome to this. hopefully restraint will prevail over ignorance.

meh, It feels like the Chinese government has a hand in fueling the flames, I doubt they will let it go too far.

If nothing else, the Chinese government has shown aptitude at self-preservation

 

[PinkiePyro]

so China is feeling butt-hurt and is wanting to bully Japan over old scars

I am just glad my father isn't there right now. He visits china for work often and if he had been there it could of been bad as he works for a Japanese company..

 

[Chunga the Great]

Ahh fuck.

Murcciah should just step in and say fuck you, it's mine. Everyone is already comfortable with hating on Murricah.

I know relations between China and the U.S are kind of meh, but where did you hear that Japan hates the U.S?

 

[Steppin Razor]

-snip-

-snip-

Fair enough, I know about the general history between them but it doesn't show up much in the news and such so I wasn't aware how much they hated each other still.

Because America has been known for being a peace loving country that trusts its fellow Europeans and Canadians and Mexicans, and Russians, and- oh wait.

I'm Australian, not American.

 

[Ryotknife]

Ahh fuck.

Murcciah should just step in and say fuck you, it's mine. Everyone is already comfortable with hating on Murricah.

I know relations between China and the U.S are kind of meh, but where did you hear that Japan hates the U.S?

im assuming there is a portion of the older generation that still hates for the bomb.

 

[Starik20X6]

First there's the moronic on both sides Islamic protests, and now this bullshit? Did the human race just shit itself inside out or what?

 

[Ryotknife]

First there's the moronic on both sides Islamic protests, and now this bullshit? Did the human race just shit itself inside out or what?

next up: some European country riots over a sport. A Los Angeles cop accidently kills a minority and sparks a race riot in the US (about the only thing we really seem to riot over).

 

[Sprinal]

What's this? There is World War 3 a brewing?

Well I'm excited.

Maybe we can cull the human population.

On a slightly more serious note though. Why Now? is oil that scarce already?

Ah well at least Conscription is against the Australian constitution.