Chivalry is dead. And wymen/womyn killed it.

[Mullahgrrl]

What bothers me is people that won't go through a door if your holding it up, stopping and going through the other door (In case of there being one of those double doors I mean. Not if they are headed somwhere else obviously)

 

[Good morning blues]

I have never heard either womyn or wymen used untill this thread so forgive my ignorance on that. Some places in the world may be different but I was talking in general about the UK, where I live. I understand that in some countries women are still downtrodden and treated as lower forms of life, but this is not common in what we would call civilized countries.
Apart from the cases stated above women can acheive anything men can career wise and payment wise. As for domestic abuse and rape, as long as derranged peope exist that cannot be helped, plus domestic abuse can come from women as well.

The thing is that women don't achieve anything that men can. Sexist attitudes still exist and are still an integral part of the cultures of what you would apparently call civilized countries; men make much more money than women do, and are responsible for much more household labour and childrearing than men. The stock response to this is "well I'm sure that women with the same positions as men make similar amounts of money," but even if this is true (and I don't grant that it is), how is the fact that there are far fewer women in positions of authority or high-paid positions not a problem?

Furthermore, saying that domestic abuse can come from women too is like saying that black people can create racial nationalist organizations and lynch white people, too. Sure, it happens on occasion, but not nearly often enough to be meaningfully compared to the other way around.

the problem is that there are enough wymen (or WOMYN) that they are beginning to change things for what they view is the better, but from a technical standpoint its just them becoming what they complain about, and i dont necessarily hate feminists either, just the ones that take it too far. Wymen (or WOMYN) believe that they can't possibly be just as oppressive as what they claim to fight against

Yeah? And what do womyn believe, exactly? You know, aside from the holding the door thing? How do you know that that there are enough womyn to enact change, or that their agenda is starting to come to be? What other experiences do you have with womyn?

And why you're making fun of me for correcting you on the "wymen/womyn" thing is beyond me, it wasn't me that brought that asinine, loaded word into this discussion.

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

I have never encoutered any so-called wymen but agree that their prescence in society is undeniable. I think when most people hear the word sexism they would never consider a woman having sexist views towards men, it is equality of women gone mad. Women have long acheived equality with men and yet some still act as if they are predjudiced against because of their gender.

Yeah I guess if you ignore the divisions of household labour, difference in wages, difference in positions, domestic abuse, the sex industry, depictions of gender-based power relations in culture, and rape, it would be perfectly reasonable to say that women have long achieved equality with men. I mean, they can vote so what more do they want amirite?

Additionally, I think it's a dumb idea, but you're all getting this "wymen" thing wrong. It is "womyn," because the word "women" presents male as the default gender and female as a perversion of it (women), you can't just stick a y in there for no reason

You have so many fallacys in that post your post is a problem in it self.

Divisons of household labor - No body makes women do it. They do it because men are apathetic about it for the most part.

Difference in Wages - Women make the same amount of money as a man in a job. But more men are CEO's and such which get paided sacks of money larger then RI so that screws up the average.

Domestic Abuse - 911, Break up with him if married you will get to take half of his check for life if you have kids. Also go strike up a convo with darth, Its not one sided.

Sex Industry - Women makes 2 or 3 times more then men, And are the ones who pick the scenes 90% of the time.

 

[Jharry5]

I always hold doors open, regardless of whether its a man or a woman. Its just the way I was brought up and its become engrained into my behaviour.
Also, I don't think chivalry is dead, but just a bit harder to find nowadays...

 

[The Lyre]

Next time you find yourself in this situation;

1. Keep the door open, and ask her if she would walk through the door if a woman was holding it.

2. If she answers yes, call her a misandrist*, and inform her that you will not tolerate such sexism.

If she answers no, call her an individualist, obstructive, pedantic *****.

3. THEN let go of the door.

*The fact that I had to look up this word shows how wrong our political correctness is - misogyny is thrown around every which way, but you never hear a woman being accused of being a misandrist.

 

[Good morning blues]

You have so many fallacys in that post your post is a problem in it self.

Divisons of household labor - No body makes women do it. They do it because men are apathetic about it for the most part.

Difference in Wages - Women make the same amount of money as a man in a job. But more men are CEO's and such which get paided sacks of money larger then RI so that screws up the average.

Domestic Abuse - 911, Break up with him if married you will get to take half of his check for life if you have kids.

Sex Industry - Women makes 2 or 3 times more then men, And are the ones who pick the scenes 90% of the time.

So men refusing to do household labour somehow doesn't count as "forcing women to do it?" Women not having access to higher-paying positions of authority somehow isn't a problem? Women who are too afraid to leave deserve to continue being beaten for their weakness? Widespread violence and coercive behavior in the sex industry aren't a problem?

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

You have so many fallacys in that post your post is a problem in it self.

Divisons of household labor - No body makes women do it. They do it because men are apathetic about it for the most part.

Difference in Wages - Women make the same amount of money as a man in a job. But more men are CEO's and such which get paided sacks of money larger then RI so that screws up the average.

Domestic Abuse - 911, Break up with him if married you will get to take half of his check for life if you have kids.

Sex Industry - Women makes 2 or 3 times more then men, And are the ones who pick the scenes 90% of the time.

So men refusing to do household labour somehow doesn't count as "forcing women to do it?" Women not having access to higher-paying positions of authority somehow isn't a problem? Women who are too afraid to leave deserve to continue being beaten for their weakness? Widespread violence and coercive behavior in the sex industry aren't a problem?

I did not say men refuse to do it, They are apathetic and care little about house work for the most part.(Yes this is a generality.) There is a big difference between refuse and careless about something. Women do have access to the jobs men have. Go ahead and tell me they don't and I will point out that hillary was in the running for president and Palin had a 50% to be VP. Would you say the janitorial work is sexist because most janitors are men?

If women are afraid of one man and refuse to seek civil help from the police then yes I they get what they get. If 3 button presses and a quick little chat with 911 is to much then they deserve what they get for being lazy.

Again what sex industry are we talking about here? If its more of internet porn then yes I can somewhat agree. But if you ever watched cinemaxs after dark shows there is not a hint of violence in sight. But a drum can full of stupid crowbarred in story. Now thats criminal.

/Frank views.

 

[jockslap]

I have never heard either womyn or wymen used untill this thread so forgive my ignorance on that. Some places in the world may be different but I was talking in general about the UK, where I live. I understand that in some countries women are still downtrodden and treated as lower forms of life, but this is not common in what we would call civilized countries.
Apart from the cases stated above women can acheive anything men can career wise and payment wise. As for domestic abuse and rape, as long as derranged peope exist that cannot be helped, plus domestic abuse can come from women as well.

The thing is that women don't achieve anything that men can. Sexist attitudes still exist and are still an integral part of the cultures of what you would apparently call civilized countries; men make much more money than women do, and are responsible for much more household labour and childrearing than men. The stock response to this is "well I'm sure that women with the same positions as men make similar amounts of money," but even if this is true (and I don't grant that it is), how is the fact that there are far fewer women in positions of authority or high-paid positions not a problem?

Furthermore, saying that domestic abuse can come from women too is like saying that black people can create racial nationalist organizations and lynch white people, too. Sure, it happens on occasion, but not nearly often enough to be meaningfully compared to the other way around.

the problem is that there are enough wymen (or WOMYN) that they are beginning to change things for what they view is the better, but from a technical standpoint its just them becoming what they complain about, and i dont necessarily hate feminists either, just the ones that take it too far. Wymen (or WOMYN) believe that they can't possibly be just as oppressive as what they claim to fight against

Yeah? And what do womyn believe, exactly? You know, aside from the holding the door thing? How do you know that that there are enough womyn to enact change, or that their agenda is starting to come to be? What other experiences do you have with womyn?

And why you're making fun of me for correcting you on the "wymen/womyn" thing is beyond me, it wasn't me that brought that asinine, loaded word into this discussion.

well, i can only base what i think wymen beleive on the actual changes that they do incite, such as womens' only gyms popping up all over the place, which is why i used it for an example. It has less to do with my experiences than simply the fact that things are happening, and i would rather discuss it than close my eyes and pretend it isn't happening (which is not to say that you want to pretend it isn't happenening, i really dont know what you choose to think about it)

and i did the wymen/womyn thing because its completely and tottaly utterly trivial, it couldn't possibly matter less, and since we both knew what i meant that means ur just nitpicking for whatever personal reasons you may have.

 

[Good morning blues]

I did not say men refuse to do it, They are apathetic and care little about house work for the most part.(Yes this is a generality.) There is a big difference between refuse and careless about something. Women do have access to the jobs men have. Go ahead and tell me they don't and I will point out that hillary was in the running for president and Palin had a 50% to be VP. Would you say the janitorial work is sexist because most janitors are men?

Both of these problems fall into unjustifiable and unequal social expectation. Women do more housework and childrearing because that is the accepted way of it - in our society, that is a woman's place. Sure, men don't care about housework, whatever; how do you explain the relative frequencies of stay-at-home moms and stay-at-home dads? Furthermore, just because there are a few token women in positions of power does not change the fact that there are far more men in those positions - enough to create the division between earnings between males and females, according to your own conjecture. I ask you again, how is this not a problem?

If women are afraid of one man and refuse to seek civil help from the police then yes I they get what they get. If 3 button presses and a quick little chat with 911 is to much then they deserve what they get for being lazy.

That's disgusting. You're seriously saying that because women are unable to overcome a justified fear of physical harm to themselves and their children, or because they are unable to overcome learned helplessness, they deserve to be beaten?

Again what sex industry are we talking about here? If its more of internet porn then yes I can somewhat agree. But if you ever watched cinemaxs after dark shows there is not a hint of violence in sight. But a drum can full of stupid crowbarred in story. Now thats criminal.

There's a hell of a lot more internet porn than cinemax after dark shows, but that's completely ignoring exotic dancing and prostitution, which a large number of the women involved in are there because of coercion, threats, desperation, and yes, sexual slavery/human trafficking.

EDIT:

well, i can only base what i think wymen beleive on the actual changes that they do incite, such as womens' only gyms popping up all over the place, which is why i used it for an example. It has less to do with my experiences than simply the fact that things are happening, and i would rather discuss it than close my eyes and pretend it isn't happening (which is not to say that you want to pretend it isn't happenening, i really dont know what you choose to think about it)

and i did the wymen/womyn thing because its completely and tottaly utterly trivial, it couldn't possibly matter less, and since we both knew what i meant that means ur just nitpicking for whatever personal reasons you may have.

So womens' only gyms are causing the downfall of society? Womens' only gyms are a massive social problem?

 

[jockslap]

You realy have no fucking idea what chivalry means do you?

to my understanding, chivalry was pretty much the special treatment of women just because they where women. just because it isnt negative doesnt mean its not sexist. It's about being courteous to women simply because, its about defending any woman from harm regardless of who she is, just because you should. It's about never wanting to hurt a woman simply because women (generally speaking) are to be admired and defended fiercly. I was raised on those principles, that belief that women should be treated with respect and admiration and it is truly a sad time when society begins to frown on such favor.

[EDIT] chiv·al·ry (shĭv'əl-r&#275 Pronunciation Key
n. pl. chiv·al·ries

1. The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.
2.
1. The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and >>>>>gallantry toward women.<<<<<
2. A manifestation of any of these qualities.
3. A group of knights or gallant gentlemen.

 

[Blade3dge]

So men refusing to do household labour somehow doesn't count as "forcing women to do it?"

Uh, no it doesn't and before you start throwing your sexist generalisations around I make a home cooked meal for my girlfriend every night the opportunity presents itself. I keep our bedroom cleaner than she does, often cleaning up her little messes which she doesn't choose to do, I do my own washing and we share dish washing duties. The only task she does exclusively is wash the bed sheets which isn't all that common a duty when you consider I cook every night.

As for the wage gap women impose this on themselves. I close friend of mine when I was sharing in an all male household when she came over would often go out of her way to clean our house, I nearly had to hold her down to keep her from cleaning. She simply cared about cleanliness more than we did, heck she even cared about it to the extent that she would stick her neck out for us and clean our mess. These days she's you're typical housewife and she loves it, no man forced this upon her it was simply her choice.

I was speaking to my grandma and I mentioned I cooked for my girlfriend, her first response was that it was a women's job to cook and I shouldn't be cooking for her. Society as a whole may have come forward in leaps and bounds and sexism in the workplace is ILLEGAL but it would seem as if the small portion of society WOMEN INCLUDED still hold traditional values, heck some traditional values are a part of human nature, such as women caring more about a messy household than men, women as children being taught BY THEIR MUMS to cook. This is not sexism in large part the wage gap is self-imposed.

And where it isn't self-imposed... Here in Australia they want to force companies to pay maternity leave (I should mention women dominated industries which DO EXIST! all ready pay maternity leave and those that don't in a sexist move expect men to support women) this WILL result in sexist recruiting policies for small companies who simply can not afford to pay this, say you hire 2 women and they both fall pregnant. Suddenly your new company that is barely breaking water has to pay two employees for no work whatsoever and has to hire another two to fill their positions and if you survive those 9 months good luck trying to fit those two women back into the roster. Paid maternity leave is a GREAT thing, I'm not debating it I'm simply stating that it is one of the few things that will give rise to true sexism from males on to females... Or heck even females would be hesitant to hire women.

Men beating women isn't sexism its an issue with the bastard that's beating her. Women not taking themselves out of the situation is an issue with the woman who's letting it happen. This is a human issue, violence from men can be directed at other men, women or children. It may be sexist to say this but women on average being weaker are simply more susceptible to this, but it doesn't mean it's a sexist issue. Men unable to control their anger and lashing out is an issue of people, an issue of men, whatever you want to call it it's just not an issue of sexism.

Also I should mention I have never seen a male-specific scholarship... I can name at least 3 exclusively for women, off course the reason for these scholarships is to entice women into certain fields. But I feel that in the name of equality women should be allowed to choose what they want to do as a career and not have the way paved for them in gold bricks, if a field lacks women it's because it is in the nature of women to avoid that field, the end. They don't need incentives as that creates inequality for men. Also with women representing 50% of the population with so many organisations having a representative solely for women I have to ask yet again... is this really equality or double standards?

My girlfriend agrees society demands double standards and that is sexism.

 

[jockslap]

So men refusing to do household labour somehow doesn't count as "forcing women to do it?"

Uh, no it doesn't and before you start throwing your sexist generalisations around I make a home cooked meal for my girlfriend every night the opportunity presents itself. I keep our bedroom cleaner than she does, often cleaning up her little messes which she doesn't choose to do, I do my own washing and we share dish washing duties. The only task she does exclusively is wash the bed sheets which isn't all that common a duty when you consider I cook every night.

As for the wage gap women impose this on themselves. I close friend of mine when I was sharing in an all male household when she came over would often go out of her way to clean our house, I nearly had to hold her down to keep her from cleaning. She simply cared about cleanliness more than we did, heck she even cared about it to the extent that she would stick her neck out for us and clean our mess. These days she's you're typical housewife and she loves it, no man forced this upon her it was simply her choice.

I was speaking to my grandma and I mentioned I cooked for my girlfriend, her first response was that it was a women's job to cook and I shouldn't be cooking for her. Society as a whole may have come forward in leaps and bounds and sexism in the workplace is ILLEGAL but it would seem as if the small portion of society WOMEN INCLUDED still hold traditional values, heck some traditional values are a part of human nature, such as women caring more about a messy household than men, women as children being taught BY THEIR MUMS to cook. This is not sexism in large part the wage gap is self-imposed.

And where it isn't self-imposed... Here in Australia they want to force companies to pay maternity leave (I should mention women dominated industries which DO EXIST! all ready pay maternity leave and those that don't in a sexist move expect men to support women) this WILL result in sexist recruiting policies for small companies who simply can not afford to pay this, say you hire 2 women and they both fall pregnant. Suddenly your new company that is barely breaking water has to pay two employees for no work whatsoever and has to hire another two to fill their positions and if you survive those 9 months good luck trying to fit those two women back into the roster. Paid maternity leave is a GREAT thing, I'm not debating it I'm simply stating that it is one of the few things that will give rise to true sexism from males on to females... Or heck even females would be hesitant to hire women.

Men beating women isn't sexism its an issue with the bastard that's beating her. Women not taking themselves out of the situation is an issue with the woman who's letting it happen. This is a human issue, violence from men can be directed at other men, women or children. It may be sexist to say this but women on average being weaker are simply more susceptible to this, but it doesn't mean it's a sexist issue. Men unable to control their anger and lashing out is an issue of people, an issue of men, whatever you want to call it it's just not an issue of sexism.

Also I should mention I have never seen a male-specific scholarship... I can name at least 3 exclusively for women, off course the reason for these scholarships is to entice women into certain fields. But I feel that in the name of equality women should be allowed to choose what they want to do as a career and not have the way paved for them in gold bricks, if a field lacks women it's because it is in the nature of women to avoid that field, the end. They don't need incentives as that creates inequality for men. Also with women representing 50% of the population with so many organisations having a representative solely for women I have to ask yet again... is this really equality or double standards?

My girlfriend agrees society demands double standards and that is sexism.

right on man!

 

[Gaiseric]

I'm the kind of guy who does those little polite things such as holding doors open for people, letting people merge in traffic, etc... and I have noticed some hostility form some women. While I haven't had someone yell at me for it, I have gotten a lot of dirty looks from women(some from men but mostly women). Some have even looked outraged that I would even dare be nice to them. I don't think it's that big of a proplem it is indeed annoying to be looked at negatively for doing something nice.

 

[Blade3dge]

That's disgusting. You're seriously saying that because women are unable to overcome a justified fear of physical harm to themselves and their children, or because they are unable to overcome learned helplessness, they deserve to be beaten?

Nobody deserves to be beaten but it's you're own fault if you're not going to do anything about it, it's like the drug addict with a victim complex. Sure you're addicted but the only person in the world who can make the change is the drug addict themselves.

Women who are beaten likewise don't deserve their treatment but the only person who can make things better is them and if they choose not to call they have chosen the alternative.

And as said in my essay length post, violence is a social problem not a sexist problem.

 

[Scorpio3002]

Widespread violence and coercive behavior in the sex industry aren't a problem?

You seem to have a few prejudices regarding the sex industry. Have you yourself worked in it, or are you just basing your opinions off of the movie Showgirls? The fact is that the sex industry provides women with a means of making far more money for far less work than any other business (I've met a few girls who have used it to put themselves through college). True, there are a lot of women who go into it out of desperation, but would it be better if it simply disappeared? Some people say that it "demeans women", but anyone who has worked as a waiter/waitress can tell you that this is very common in any job in the service industry; it has nothing to do with gender, and in fact the amount of money that it pays is often seen as a form of empowerment.

A good friend of mine has been stripping for seven years now. She is currently working on a degree in biochemistry, and is one of the most intelligent people I have ever known. If you ever want to better understand the sex industry and get over the misconceptions that so many people have, strike up a conversation with someone who has actually been in the business for a couple of years. I've seen a lot of the complaints toward the industry, and it's always from the people who tried it for a few months and then gave up in frustration, saying that it was a predatory industry. The thing is, that's the way that our generation, the millenials, is responding to any job that they are just arriving at: they expect the job to accommodate to them immediately, and are frustrated with the concept of 'paying your dues', often leaving within a few months.

 

[Programmed_For_Damage]

I'll hold a door open for anyone, it's just politeness. I've never been chided for it because I act as if it's something one should simply do, if you've opened the door and you're not in a hurry, stand aside and let someone through.

Same here. Although it would take someone pretty ballsy to have a go at me given my appearance. I find most women appreciate you holding the door for them; some occasionally glare at you, but fortunately I haven't been publicly savaged like yourself.

 

[JMeganSnow]

Yeah I guess if you ignore the divisions of household labour, difference in wages, difference in positions, domestic abuse, the sex industry, depictions of gender-based power relations in culture, and rape, it would be perfectly reasonable to say that women have long achieved equality with men. I mean, they can vote so what more do they want amirite?

Let's not forget divisions of *non* household labor, difference in spending, difference in education and ambition, and the fact that women are more likely to *kill* their spouse.

I don't have trouble with doing the dishes and cleaning the house if I don't have to shingle the roof and mow the lawn.

As long as we have political equality, we can handle any other "problems" we may have with men ourselves.

 

[Zer_]

I have never heard either womyn or wymen used untill this thread so forgive my ignorance on that. Some places in the world may be different but I was talking in general about the UK, where I live. I understand that in some countries women are still downtrodden and treated as lower forms of life, but this is not common in what we would call civilized countries.
Apart from the cases stated above women can acheive anything men can career wise and payment wise. As for domestic abuse and rape, as long as derranged peope exist that cannot be helped, plus domestic abuse can come from women as well.

The thing is that women don't achieve anything that men can. Sexist attitudes still exist and are still an integral part of the cultures of what you would apparently call civilized countries; men make much more money than women do, and are responsible for much more household labour and childrearing than men. The stock response to this is "well I'm sure that women with the same positions as men make similar amounts of money," but even if this is true (and I don't grant that it is), how is the fact that there are far fewer women in positions of authority or high-paid positions not a problem?

Furthermore, saying that domestic abuse can come from women too is like saying that black people can create racial nationalist organizations and lynch white people, too. Sure, it happens on occasion, but not nearly often enough to be meaningfully compared to the other way around.

the problem is that there are enough wymen (or WOMYN) that they are beginning to change things for what they view is the better, but from a technical standpoint its just them becoming what they complain about, and i dont necessarily hate feminists either, just the ones that take it too far. Wymen (or WOMYN) believe that they can't possibly be just as oppressive as what they claim to fight against

Yeah? And what do womyn believe, exactly? You know, aside from the holding the door thing? How do you know that that there are enough womyn to enact change, or that their agenda is starting to come to be? What other experiences do you have with womyn?

And why you're making fun of me for correcting you on the "wymen/womyn" thing is beyond me, it wasn't me that brought that asinine, loaded word into this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5D9u0TijWR0

Just because there is a minority in "Womyn", doesn't mean they don't pose a threat. Watch the entire thing. It is about Creationism, but it does show us that even a minority can have a lot of power over others.

 

[klakkat]

Yeah. I hold the door open for anyone; I honestly don't pay attention to their gender (well, I do, but I don't act differently).

Anyone who yells at another for being polite has some serious personal issues.