Chivalry is dead. And wymen/womyn killed it.

[jockslap]

Okay....I've been around for like 2k plus years so I have a bit of a different take on this..most women like to be the center of attention, and if you open a door for them, but appear to be slavering, they will take offense. Open a door and appear as (you're most obedient servant madame) you will get a different reaction. Be polite and genteel and you will be treated so. Sexism is quite passe' most people just wish to be treated with respect, so patience and decency is the rule of law these days..and...pull up your pants.

well, you might have had something interesting to say but unfortunately, your apparently a complete moron, we will all definitely beleive that you are over 2000 years old, because that is soooo possible (if sarcasm could drip from my words we would have an ocean on our hands)

 

[jockslap]

Why are we even discussing this lol? Arn't their spicy topics to tear to shreds?

Because I'm getting to talk about Liz Phair in the mid-90s: it doesn't GET any spicier! :-D

don't u think ur sniping just a bit too much?

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

Women are actually MORE likely to be killed by their abuser after trying to leave him. I posted the data in another thread if you need be to go dig it up.

A woman trying to leave her abuser usually escalates the violence. Leaving an abusive home is a leading cause of homelessness in women, because they have no where else to go. Their families are either too far away, or their abuser hunts them down there, so they end up on the street, sometimes with their kids.

If you think law enforcement and restraining orders can actually keep women safe from their abusers, you are wrong.

Well personally I would side with the more powerful people with guns then the people who would abuse me but I guess I am a oddball.

The problem is that the more powerful people with guns won't or can't side with you. I've known women who have been stalked, threatened, beaten, and raped by their abusers after they left them. The violence got worse when they tried to do the right thing and leave. I've also known cops who expressed a great deal of frustration at being unable to protect women who are being stalked, threatened, and abused by the abusers they left. The guy could be waiting for her in front of her home when she gets back from work, and she can call 911, but by the time the police get there, he's gone. She says he was there, the abuser says he wasn't, there are no witnesses or evidence, so the police can't do anything. And this happens again and again, until the cops start getting frustrated with the woman for calling them when they know there won't be anything they can do. Or sometimes, like my friend, she never gets to the phone until after she's been beaten, choked, and raped by her ex.

Wait so you would rather be beaten for the rest of said life then get beaten choked and raped for one day?

Yes I know I am evil. Yes I already got my place in hell picked out.

EDIT: No I am not siding with stalkers, Personally I would have helped the women but then I have a soft spot in my heart to help women. Yes my tainted rotted heart does have a slightly good side. Chivalry isn't dead. Its just the feminists put the chivalrous men in hiding!

 

[Blade3dge]

In any workplace if somebody does the exact same job as you they will get the exact same amount of pay as you.

In workplaces, people are rarely paid according to the job they do, as opposed to the job title they have.

The 70 cents on the dollar isn't so much because women bill by the hour at a lower rate; it has more to do with the fact that they don't get promoted as easily or as often. In fact, women seem more strongly drawn to law schools and med schools than business school (totally uninformed opinion warning). I wonder if it's because to make money in the corporate world you need to get promoted. In law and medicine, the connection between the job you do and your worth to the company is more easily identified. Combined with the greater ability to leave and set up your own shop, and bring your clients with you.

oddly enough i agree with bullet on this one, i have a job at pizza hut, and guess what, all the female workers there make the same money i do, in fact 2 of them make MORE than me.

It's not the pay in the Pizza Huts, it's the employment patterns in the Pizza Hut Corporate, and the trades that build the Pizza Hut buildings that are responsible for the gap in pay.

A guy with no academic credentials can still find a good-paying job in things like construction. On the other hand, how many good-paying jobs are out there for women that don't involve a college degree? Ever wonder why so many women waitress? It's about the only blue-collar job that doesn't involve physical labor, where women have a harder time breaking in. Ever wonder why factories hire women these days? They're less likely to unionize.

Thats not sexism at all, if women can't do construction work they have to take less paying jobs. Now if we expand on this and say it's thing like this that account for the wage gap (i.e men can do all the jobs women can do but women cant do the more physical jobs men do) then the only way to close the wage gap is to overpay women or discriminate against men...

The wage gap is equality! Women are born into this world with every right that men are born with and then some. Equality is being given equal rights. The equality people talk of here with no wage gap is ewuality through force... In essence inequality.

Equality is about having equal freedom and choices, many women do in fact choose to be housewives, or more women than men anyway. So in essence women chose the wage gap.

When you are born into this world you have the ability to earn as much as any man and no matter how many times you quote a wage gap this will always be the case, the wage gap is meaningless.

 

[jockslap]

Women are actually MORE likely to be killed by their abuser after trying to leave him. I posted the data in another thread if you need be to go dig it up.

A woman trying to leave her abuser usually escalates the violence. Leaving an abusive home is a leading cause of homelessness in women, because they have no where else to go. Their families are either too far away, or their abuser hunts them down there, so they end up on the street, sometimes with their kids.

If you think law enforcement and restraining orders can actually keep women safe from their abusers, you are wrong.

Well personally I would side with the more powerful people with guns then the people who would abuse me but I guess I am a oddball.

The problem is that the more powerful people with guns won't or can't side with you. I've known women who have been stalked, threatened, beaten, and raped by their abusers after they left them. The violence got worse when they tried to do the right thing and leave. I've also known cops who expressed a great deal of frustration at being unable to protect women who are being stalked, threatened, and abused by the abusers they left. The guy could be waiting for her in front of her home when she gets back from work, and she can call 911, but by the time the police get there, he's gone. She says he was there, the abuser says he wasn't, there are no witnesses or evidence, so the police can't do anything. And this happens again and again, until the cops start getting frustrated with the woman for calling them when they know there won't be anything they can do. Or sometimes, like my friend, she never gets to the phone until after she's been beaten, choked, and raped by her ex.

Wait so you would rather be beaten for the rest of said life then get beaten choked and raped for one day?

Yes I know I am evil. Yes I already got my place in hell picked out.

evil or not ur logic is solid, i guess its like a cold? (has to get worse before it gets better)

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

The problem is that the more powerful people with guns won't or can't side with you. I've known women who have been stalked, threatened, beaten, and raped by their abusers after they left them. The violence got worse when they tried to do the right thing and leave. I've also known cops who expressed a great deal of frustration at being unable to protect women who are being stalked, threatened, and abused by the abusers they left. The guy could be waiting for her in front of her home when she gets back from work, and she can call 911, but by the time the police get there, he's gone. She says he was there, the abuser says he wasn't, there are no witnesses or evidence, so the police can't do anything. And this happens again and again, until the cops start getting frustrated with the woman for calling them when they know there won't be anything they can do. Or sometimes, like my friend, she never gets to the phone until after she's been beaten, choked, and raped by her ex.

While this sickens and saddens me, please refrain from blaming it on gender. There are cases of women doing this to men too as well as cases of abuser and abused being the same gender. I believe earlier this year there was a case of school violence with motives something like this in the US (where the woman was violent toward the man).

Interesting that you should mention same sex violence. Being queer myself, I've known women who were beaten by their female lovers. In fact, I dated one of them. However, when domestic violence accounts for a third of women's emergency room visits, 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual assault, and when murder by their male partners is the number one cause of death for pregnant women, the numbers do not point to a gender-neutral story. And those stats are not pulled out of my ass, those stats are pulled from the Journal of the American Medical Association, the FBI, and the General Accounting Office of the United States government.

Now if you have similar statistics for violence by women against men, I would like to see them, and I don't mean that in a snotty way. As people who have been around here long enough will tell you, I do fight cultural sexism against men too. Among other things, even if the worst of these statistics is true, I don't view men as natural monsters. Quite the opposite. Men who are committing this violence against women (and against other men, since men are more likely overall to die of murder than women, though in both cases the murders are committed primarily by men) are not doing it because there is something wrong with them, they are doing it because a sexist culture teaches them somethings and refuses to teach them others because they are men. That being the case, men do suffer from sexism, it's just that, in the case of domestic violence, men suffer from it and women die from it.

I also don't subscribe to the idea what women can't be sexist. They can be and are. A lot. The sexism does not usually minifest in overt violence, but as they say, a person who is not part of the solution is part of the problem, and there are a women who are a part of the problem too.

This is sort of besides the point, but as a person who is not a so-called "have-it-both-ways" feminist (such women will rarely ever actually claim the title of "feminist" in my experience, though they are quick enough to identify sexism when it effects personally and let other women go hang when it doesn't) I have actually had discussions with my male coworkers where I defended a man's right to wear, for instance, makeup to work. If it's OK for me to do it, it should be OK for a guy to do it. My coworkers though I was...strange for espousing such an idea, but they think I am strange anyway.

 

[Alex_P]

Wait so you would rather be beaten for the rest of said life then get beaten choked and raped for one day?

Yes I know I am evil. Yes I already got my place in hell picked out.

The distinction between "evil" and "pathologically naive" seems to be lost to you. Mayhap because you are... pathologically naive?

-- Alex

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

Wait so you would rather be beaten for the rest of said life then get beaten choked and raped for one day?

Yes I know I am evil. Yes I already got my place in hell picked out.

The distinction between "evil" and "pathologically naive" seems to be lost to you. Mayhap because you are... pathologically naive?

-- Alex

Eh. Evil goes off the tongue better. Time to go dine on baby giblets while this hot spicy thread simmers all night long.

 

[searanox]

When you are born into this world you have the ability to earn as much as any man and no matter how many times you quote a wage gap this will always be the case, the wage gap is meaningless.

Just like how in America, you can accomplish anything regardless of your background, class, race, economic status, etc., right?

 

[santaandy]

Interesting that you should mention same sex violence. Being queer myself, I've known women who were beaten by their female lovers. In fact, I dated one of them. However, when domestic violence accounts for a third of women's emergency room visits, 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual assault, and when murder by their male partners is the number one cause of death for pregnant women, the numbers do not point to a gender-neutral story. And those stats are not pulled out of my ass, those stats are pulled from the Journal of the American Medical Association, the FBI, and the General Accounting Office of the United States government.

Now if you have similar statistics for violence by women against men, I would like to see them, and I don't mean that in a snotty way. As people who have been around here long enough will tell you, I do fight cultural sexism against men too. Among other things, even if the worst of these statistics is true, I don't view men as natural monsters. Quite the opposite. Men who are committing this violence against women (and against other men, since men are more likely overall to die of murder than women, though in both cases the murders are committed primarily by men) are not doing it because there is something wrong with them, they are doing it because a sexist culture teaches them somethings and refuses to teach them others because they are men. That being the case, men do suffer from sexism, it's just that, in the case of domestic violence, men suffer from it and women die from it.

I also don't subscribe to the idea what women can't be sexist. They can be and are. A lot. The sexism does not usually minifest in overt violence, but as they say, a person who is not part of the solution is part of the problem, and there are a women who are a part of the problem too.

Don't worry, I don't think you are sexist. Much the same as with rape in previous generations, people are afraid to speak out. You're right about the men being taught to commit violence because they are men, but male victims are taught to be quiet because they will appear weak or some other silly reason. I have not encountered such cases personally, but you know how you hear things. Just because more women report it doesn't mean it's a one sided problem. And really I was only trying to point out that women do it too, even if it was more predominant on one side. But to say men suffer from it and women die from it is not accurate either; look at Phil Hartman. His wife may have committed murder because she was mentally unstable and not simply evil and hateful, but he died nonetheless.

Also, men are taught to accept women's sexual overtures piecemeal, especially if she is attractive; women are taught that they have the right to choose. I think men are taught not to complain about sexual harassment because they are lucky to be getting the attention (or because other men are jealous), even if the harrassed men don't like it. I don't have statistics to prove this, just something I feel is true based on what I have experienced in life.

 

[Scorpio3002]

Lots. Individual guys have written and sung songs for individual girls since music was invented. The Plain White Tees, Ben Folds, Dashboard Confessional, Coldplay, 3 Doors Down, Lifehouse, The Good Goo Dolls, Green Day all have written love songs with women as their subjects. Writers who write with tweenagers as their target audience are either called sell-outs or pedophiles.

Right--and how many of them aren't left over from the 90s? Two? Now how many women writing or singing love songs can you find back in the 90s [http://www.amazon.com/Songs-Dawsons-Creek-ENHANCED-CD/dp/B00000IMY8]?

You stop that. Right now, this instant, or else you're going to make me feel old. 90's artists are current artists, unless they've broken up. Everybody knows that.

 

[searanox]

*snip*

Thank you for being one of the few reasonable people here. I appreciate it. Though, it's odd (and unfortunate) that it always takes a queer to speak sense about these topics, isn't it?

 

[santaandy]

I thought women weren't pervs like men? LOL!

You have no idea...but you should get one.

Well met!

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

Interesting that you should mention same sex violence. Being queer myself, I've known women who were beaten by their female lovers. In fact, I dated one of them. However, when domestic violence accounts for a third of women's emergency room visits, 1 in 4 women is a victim of sexual assault, and when murder by their male partners is the number one cause of death for pregnant women, the numbers do not point to a gender-neutral story. And those stats are not pulled out of my ass, those stats are pulled from the Journal of the American Medical Association, the FBI, and the General Accounting Office of the United States government.

Now if you have similar statistics for violence by women against men, I would like to see them, and I don't mean that in a snotty way. As people who have been around here long enough will tell you, I do fight cultural sexism against men too. Among other things, even if the worst of these statistics is true, I don't view men as natural monsters. Quite the opposite. Men who are committing this violence against women (and against other men, since men are more likely overall to die of murder than women, though in both cases the murders are committed primarily by men) are not doing it because there is something wrong with them, they are doing it because a sexist culture teaches them somethings and refuses to teach them others because they are men. That being the case, men do suffer from sexism, it's just that, in the case of domestic violence, men suffer from it and women die from it.

I also don't subscribe to the idea what women can't be sexist. They can be and are. A lot. The sexism does not usually minifest in overt violence, but as they say, a person who is not part of the solution is part of the problem, and there are a women who are a part of the problem too.

Don't worry, I don't think you are sexist. Much the same as with rape in previous generations, people are afraid to speak out. You're right about the men being taught to commit violence because they are men, but male victims are taught to be quiet because they will appear weak or some other silly reason. I have not encountered such cases personally, but you know how you hear things. Just because more women report it doesn't mean it's a one sided problem. And really I was only trying to point out that women do it too, even if it was more predominant on one side. But to say men suffer from it and women die from it is not accurate either; look at Phil Hartman. His wife may have committed murder because she was mentally unstable and not simply evil and hateful, but he died nonetheless.

Also, men are taught to accept women's sexual overtures piecemeal, especially if she is attractive; women are taught that they have the right to choose. I think men are taught not to complain about sexual harassment because they are lucky to be getting the attention (or because other men are jealous), even if the harrassed men don't like it. I don't have statistics to prove this, just something I feel is true based on what I have experienced in life.

While I do agree that men under-report domestic violence, I do not believe any amount of under-reporting can close the gender gap in the violence I've just listed. I also believe men get sexually harassed. In fact I know they do, because one of the women I used to work with got fired for doing it, and I was really proud of my female HR manager for taking the time to gather the evidence to fire her.

Gender dynamics in coworker conflicts is very complex. I had to go to HR to get resolution on one of my coworkers who was bullying me, threatening to write me up, report me to my boss, etc. and other things he had no authority to do. I don't know how much gender was a part of the issue, but since he used to call me "sweetie" when he was talking down to me, I'm thinking maybe there was. He might very well have tried to pull some sort of alpha-behavior on me if I had been male, but I think the methods he would have used would have been different. It's further complicated by the fact that we both do the same job, that there are only two of us, and that I don't like him. That's another way that sexism works, and racism too for that matter, that conflicts that at heart have nothing to do with gender get played out in gendered ways, for lack of a better way of putting it.

*snip*

Thank you for being one of the few reasonable people here. I appreciate it. Though, it's odd (and unfortunate) that it always takes a queer to speak sense about these topics, isn't it?

What are you trying to do? Get me busted for being a lesbian chauvanist pig? Honestly, I think any advantage that I might have based on my sexuality when it comes to talking about sexism arises from that fact that I know that, yes, women really can be crazy bitches in a relationships. I've dated crazy bitches and I've been the crazy ***** ex-girlfriend to more than one person. And I don't come into these conversations still boiling from my argument with my boyfriend the night before, something men do too, of course, when talking about women.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

I thought women weren't pervs like men? LOL!

You have no idea...but you should get one.

MAI FANFICKSHUN, LET ME SHOW U IT.

 

[searanox]

What are you trying to do? Get me busted for being a lesbian chauvanist pig? Honestly, I think any advantage that I might have based on my sexuality when it comes to talking about sexism arises from that fact that I know that, yes, women really can be crazy bitches in a relationships. I've dated crazy bitches and I've been the crazy ***** ex-girlfriend to more than one person. And I don't come into these conversations still boiling from my argument with my boyfriend the night before, something men do too, of course, when talking about women.

Uh, no? I'm just pointing out that generally the only ones who have a clear understanding of gender issues in society tend to fall into more fluid gender identities, while most other people are defensive and very quick to dismiss the realities of the world with little else than personal experience representing exceptions rather than rules.

 

[xitel]

I don't know about you, but I would define chivalry as doing something polite like that without caring about what they say. It's doing something completely selflessly, regardless of whether it's a man or woman.

Although, I agree that these uber, over-the-top feminists are killing the progress that feminists have been making. I can't think of a man who wouldn't be a little bit sexist if all women he tried to be polite to threw it back in his face.

Next time, you should do what I do if someone gets pissed off at me for holding the door for them (it happens a lot unfortunately): tell them "oh, I'm sorry, I was holding for that person behind you. The one with his hands full." Then, when they turn around and notice there's noone there, just keep holding the door and smilingly sweetly at them until they walk through the door anyways. It really freaks them out, and the look on their face is priceless.

 

[mshcherbatskaya]

What are you trying to do? Get me busted for being a lesbian chauvanist pig? Honestly, I think any advantage that I might have based on my sexuality when it comes to talking about sexism arises from that fact that I know that, yes, women really can be crazy bitches in a relationships. I've dated crazy bitches and I've been the crazy ***** ex-girlfriend to more than one person. And I don't come into these conversations still boiling from my argument with my boyfriend the night before, something men do too, of course, when talking about women.

Uh, no? I'm just pointing out that generally the only ones who have a clear understanding of gender issues in society tend to fall into more fluid gender identities, while most other people are defensive and very quick to dismiss the realities of the world with little else than personal experience representing exceptions rather than rules.

I'm just joking about the lesbian chauvanist thing. I do like to give straight people a little more credit, perhaps. I can see where a psychological vested interest in the status quo might generate defensiveness, or even just the anxiety caused by being confronted with ideas and experiences for which a person has no useful frame of reference. Also, no one likes to think of themselves as an oppressor, especially when they are only doing, as one person pointed out, what they have always been taught was the right thing.

Certainly, being on the outside looking in on something does give one a different point of view, and hanging out with a lot of gender-variant people really opens ones eyes to different possibilities where gender is concerned. Hanging out with transexuals, male-to-female and female-to-male, was particularly enlightening for me.